Czapek

[mikemargolis]

Dear Mr. Schwein,

Thank you for your comments and your enthusiastic opinion. I love when someone is passionate about their feelings. Much better than lukewarm.

We are sorry that our brand is not for you. Thankfully, we make far less pieces than Rolex, Moser or Chopard, so somehow we still manage to sell them to people who want them.

Wishing you great success in finding what works for you, and we appreciate your giving us a shot.

Mike Margolis
Czapek Americas

[ChetBaker]

Originally Posted by mikemargolis

Dear Mr. Schwein,

This cracked me up for some reason

[ts3]

Originally Posted by AlyRba

Aesthetics are subjective. You are entitled as a collector to prefer Moser (Streamliner) over likes of Alpine Eagle XPS and Antarctique at the $20k-25k range. You are also right to point out few shortcomings in the Antarctique for the asking retail price (flimsy bracelet connection, lack of chamfers, and Rhodium indices instead of WG indices).

...

The Alpine Eagle XPS, aesthetics aside, is the best value currently in the luxury sports watch category. It blows both the Streamliner and Antarctique out of the water in terms of overall package (LUC movement over the rather plain HMC 200 and finished close to the level of the Antarctique movement, WG indices, and Lucent steel that has WG type of sheen). Not to mention that the design will age better than the Streamliner (a subjective call) and the bracelet to case integration is smooth. The watch feels more robust than the Antarctique. The AE XPS bracelet is also bettered by only the Royal Oak bracelet in terms of finishing (Royal Oak being the industry standard and $5.5k more expensive than the AE XPS). All of these are observable facts once you handle all of the offerings in the $20k-$28k price range. After the Royal Oak 15510, AE XPS comes second for me over the likes of Streamliner, Antarctique, and Overseas as an overall package.

Agree with much of the above, but the elephant in the room is the "aesthetics aside" qualification. I'd never spend USD 20-30k on a watch I don't find attractive whenever I look at my wrist. The Alpine Eagle does not look good in my eyes (XPS or not, whereas the 1860 is to die for), I similarly don't like the Gen 3 Overseas for looks (and size), the Antarctique design feels a little uninspired albeit with a great movement, and the Streamliner may not age well like you said. Which leaves the Royal Oak 15510 if only it was smaller.

Not long ago Jumbo and 5711 were in the USD 20-30k MSRP range but today I'd feel better off looking outside of that range altogether.

[thesingularity7]

Originally Posted by Schweinwerfer

I hear ya but just check out what other brands offer for 10k
https://www.horage.com/autark-tourbillon
This seems more than decent and the bracelet likely is better, than the Antarctiques.
I think Czapek will never arrive where they wanted to be..
Other than the name and its legacy as well as the openness about supply chains, what can Czapek offer?
New dial variants and the umpteenth LE, maybe.

Concerning the CW12, I don't say it could hold a candle compared to the Antarctique. I just think it's at least suspicious that it looks so similar to czapeks watch. So similar, that the Antarctique is devaluated due to its existence.

What im observing is that Antarctique is half dead. There are 82 listings on Chrono. That's maybe like 30 percent of the whole bunch ever produced. And they're listed below retail.

If you wish to use secondary market price + total number of available listings as an indicator of how success of a product, I believe the Antarctique secondary prices were slipping from their peak even before the Twelve was released.

I got to handle the Twelve at WindUp last year and it is an excellent product with case finishing exceeding that of watches in it's price category. But it is impossible to ignore the gorgeous and capable movement inside the Czapek. And the bracelet (with its shortcomings) is more impressive too.

But I think we're beating a dead horse here. You should buy what you like, and if you don't like something there is no reason to pretend otherwise. I hope you find something more suited to your preferences - if you haven't already tried one, I highly recommend giving the Parmigiani Fleurier Micro Rotor Tonda a shot. It fits like a dream and has a pretty unique design aesthetic. And that movement is no slouch either. The secondary prices on those are creeping towards $15k, making them an excellent option for integrated bracelet watch lovers.

[AlyRba]

Originally Posted by ts3

Agree with much of the above, but the elephant in the room is the "aesthetics aside" qualification. I'd never spend USD 20-30k on a watch I don't find attractive whenever I look at my wrist. The Alpine Eagle does not look good in my eyes (XPS or not, whereas the 1860 is to die for), I similarly don't like the Gen 3 Overseas for looks (and size), the Antarctique design feels a little uninspired albeit with a great movement, and the Streamliner may not age well like you said. Which leaves the Royal Oak 15510 if only it was smaller.

Not long ago Jumbo and 5711 were in the USD 20-30k MSRP range but today I'd feel better off looking outside of that range altogether.

And that’s fine. Royal Oak and Nautilus have been there for many years now and people are ‘used’ to the design. New watches take some time to find a collector base. Now people have options outside the Royal Oak, Overseas, Nautilus, and Aquanaut (the last two being unobtainable for most unless you are spending big at the AD). I was merely comparing the options between $20k and $28k and for me, after the Royal Oak, Alpine Eagle XPS is the best in terms of overall offering (dare I say a better finished movement than the Royal Oak but AP bracelet finishing is a good standard that is hard to match).

[AlyRba]

Originally Posted by Schweinwerfer

I hear ya but just check out what other brands offer for 10k
https://www.horage.com/autark-tourbillon
This seems more than decent and the bracelet likely is better, than the Antarctiques.
I think Czapek will never arrive where they wanted to be..
Other than the name and its legacy as well as the openness about supply chains, what can Czapek offer?
New dial variants and the umpteenth LE, maybe.

Concerning the CW12, I don't say it could hold a candle compared to the Antarctique. I just think it's at least suspicious that it looks so similar to czapeks watch. So similar, that the Antarctique is devaluated due to its existence.

What im observing is that Antarctique is half dead. There are 82 listings on Chrono. That's maybe like 30 percent of the whole bunch ever produced. And they're listed below retail.

You are right that there are plenty of Antarctique offerings below retail at C24. It may be a combination of various factors, some people getting it to make money, many bought it untried and didn’t like it in person, or like any non-hype sports watch, Antarctique is going through a pricing curve (initial hype, a dip, and then settling at a certain price point preowned). I also believe the retail pricing should be closer to $20k based on the offering but that’s just me.

I don’t buy your Horage comparison. That is like saying Omega Aqua Terra is comparable to a Rolex Yacht Master as an overall package (it is not). You are again comparing products across different price tiers. Not to mention that the Horage seems ugly both on the dial and bracelet side (to my eyes and thus subjective). I own two Antarctiques Passage De Drake variations and they are beautiful in person, despite their shortcomings I listed in my previous post.

[Gebbeth]

Yeah, the Horage comparison doesn't make sense to me, as are the infinite comparisons with the CW.

These are two different manufacturers with different target markets.

I am an Horage enthusiast too and am on their mailing list and look forward to their updates.

But Horage, very firmly, put themselves in the "value for the money" category. Their original claim to fame was that they offered the lowest priced Swiss tourbillon on the market. Impressive, but I wasn't enamored to the design itself.

They've come out with the Supercede, which they deem the "All Terrain" GMT. It's a nice GMT diver that works with a 12-hour GMT function. Not exactly innovative as others have been doing this for awhile (Omega for example). I was very excited for this model, as they teased it ad infinitum, but when it finally came out, I was underwhelmed. I did not put an order for one.

The CW models have also underwhelmed. I don't "get" the CW design philosophy because I don't think they really have one. It's always a comparison to something else, whether it would be the "more affordable" version of the Antarctique, or a less expensive version of an MB&F/Moser collab, a more affordable version of a petite sonnerie, a more affordable version of a Moser Perpetual Moon, there always seems to be the nomenclature of "more affordable version of" attached to it.

And there is some merit to that argument as well. At the end of the day, if CW's goal is to be the Seiko of high horology, then more power to them, but in my opinion, that's easier pickings than creating something entirely new.

Czapek is trying very hard to impress in a very difficult market segment where not a lot of people can be impressed by anything. That's not easy to do. You cannot be derivative of anything. You need your own design philosophy and direction. You need to standout amongst a crowd of standouts. So yes, there is ample room to nit pick here whereas you might be more accepting of nit picks in a watch that costs 1/2 the price (which still makes that 1/2 priced model expensive).

I think to take the Antarctique and say that this is ALL of Czapek is a mistake. The Antarctique is one model in a lineup of truly excellent high-end pieces, and you can never say that Czapek is derivative of anything.

It may not be your cup of tea, but that's what you get when you try to do something different without being outlandish.

That being said, if Czapek ever comes out with a 6 figure watch that has a super hero on the dial, and hour/minute hands that look like the hero's member, then I'm out from Czapek.

Oh, and looking at Chrono24 to guage the "value" of a watch is a fools errand. I mean who cares? How many Rolexes of all kinds do you see on Chrono24? Does the number of listings indicate desirability or lack thereof?

If Chrono24 existed 20 years ago, and you saw the number and price of Rolex Daytona's on the site, what would it have shown you? A LOT of Daytona's at bargain basement prices. But the worm does turn.

And this is only relevant if you care. I personally don't. I expect ALL my watches to take a hit after buying them. Some hits are bigger than others, but it doesn't deter me in the least.

I guess I'm overreacting to what I see as an overreact. The comments by one poster, seemingly advertising his/her deep disappointment in the Antarctique seems a bit contrived....like you just have to express yourself about it. I don't get why. It seems a bit like "the lady dost protest too much, me thinks."

[enjoythemusic]

How many timepieces look like a Rolex Submariner? Looking 'like' does not make it the same.

Love wearing mine, and for me that's what matters. Enjoy your time

PS: Looks great on a bracelet or a plethora of straps. Extremely versatile

[GB-man]

Bought a micro brand hoping it would go up in value and it tanked in value. A story as old as time lol

I think the watches look great although I have no first hand experience. Almost everything is below msrp these days you can’t judge watches based on that nonsense. Be happy they are accessible to more people!

[Schweinwerfer]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Bought a micro brand hoping it would go up in value and it tanked in value. A story as old as time lol

I think the watches look great although I have no first hand experience. Almost everything is below msrp these days you can’t judge watches based on that nonsense. Be happy they are accessible to more people!

Don't insinuate!
On the contrary. I waited more than a year for the watch and when I ultimately got it [Salmon 40.5 LE] I could have flipped it for a profit. What did I do? I contacted the person responsible for Czapek sales in my country, returned it to him and got refunded for not a single penny more.
The truth is, the watch is underwhelming, this is why so many are on Chrono.
So before you speak up, I suggest you should get first hand experience!
I was very much in love with it when in came out. The Czapek sales rep even visited me and showed me the collection twice. As time passed I noticed it's a very generic watch and not quite an icon (which Czapek wanted to create).
Their dress watch with grand feu dial is hot, though!

[Liza]

To me, it sounds like this fella bought the Antarctique for the wrong reasons. And now he is bitter because he is loosing money on it. And that leads to ridiculous comparisons to C12 and Horage. Just stick to Rolex.

[Schweinwerfer]

Originally Posted by Liza

To me, it sounds like this fella bought the Antarctique for the wrong reasons. And now he is bitter because he is loosing money on it. And that leads to ridiculous comparisons to C12 and Horage. Just stick to Rolex.

I returned it to the German sales rep at no profit.
So don't accuse me wrongfully.
I am entitled to my opinion and we don't need you to explain "what's going on" to the public.
There are people who agree, that the Antarctique is listed too high. I said they devaluate their brand value with too many LEs (salmon, monochrome, japan, titanium and so on. A plethora of new variants within 3 years. If you want to create an icon, you should not create such a huge variety. ) In my book it should cost a tad more than the new Ingenieur 40.

[Liza]

Originally Posted by Schweinwerfer

I returned it to the German sales rep at no profit.
So don't accuse me wrongfully.
I am entitled to my opinion and we don't need you to explain "what's going on" to the public.
There are people who agree, that the Antarctique is listed too high. I said they devaluate their brand value with too many LEs (salmon, monochrome, japan, titanium and so on. A plethora of new variants within 3 years. If you want to create an icon, you should not create such a huge variety. ) In my book it should cost a tad more than the new Ingenieur 40.

Ok good. You can buy plenty of C12 and horages with the refund.

It should cost a tad more than the Ingeneur? Really? The Antarctique movement alone should cost more than the entire Ingeneur. But its good that you moved on from comparisons to C12 and Horage to the Ingeneur. We are making progress.

Yes, some can argue that the retail price is too high. I argue that 80% of Patek Philippe catalogue has too high of a retail price. I argue that that 5172G is ridiculous at $82k. Does that make it a failed watch? Does that reduce its quality? I dont think so.

Maybe its the wrong strategy to release too many LEs, time will tell. But you cannot argue with the quality of the product. And no, someone who is in a market for a 20k indie watch, will not cross shop it with its 1k mass produced copycat.

[Schweinwerfer]

Originally Posted by Liza

Ok good. You can buy plenty of C12 and horages with the refund.

It should cost a tad more than the Ingeneur? Really? The Antarctique movement alone should cost more than the entire Ingeneur. But its good that you moved on from comparisons to C12 and Horage to the Ingeneur. We are making progress.

Yes, some can argue that the retail price is too high. I argue that 80% of Patek Philippe catalogue has too high of a retail price. I argue that that 5172G is ridiculous at $82k. Does that make it a failed watch? Does that reduce its quality? I dont think so.

Maybe its the wrong strategy to release too many LEs, time will tell. But you cannot argue with the quality of the product. And no, someone who is in a market for a 20k indie watch, will not cross shop it with its 1k mass produced copycat.

The CW12 has similar aesthetics and design as the Antarctique and an interchangeable strap / bracelet system.
Which is no surprise because they are both penned by Adrian Buchmann.
Czapek has cheapened out their product as they don't chronometer certified their watch anymore. The terre adelie was still a chronometre. When I found out and asked them, they said for an extra 700€ and an additional wait of 3 weeks they'd do it. Then the sales rep said its possible to individualize watches thus I reached out for blued screws in the movement, guess what, I got a run of the mill Antarctique. That's what kinda spilled the experience for me. They proclaim themselves to be super bespoke and in the end you get a product with many afterthoughts.
Bracelet from pins to screws (which is welcome)
New dial patterns every once in a while.
Micro extensions only added later on.
Different spring bars at the lugs.
We're I to launch such a product I'd rather plan in advance what and how to do and not hastily react once in a while.
The first Antarctiques with enamel dials were really an outstanding work of art. I wish they had continued that way.
And why should I not cross shop CW and Czapek?
I have nothing to prove and can wear any watch ranging from a couple of dollars to 6 figure watches. I buy what I like and cheap watches can good and desirable as well.
Please let me know ow why the movement is worth more than the Ingeneur? Czapek movements are not finished nor decorated as the likes as PP or LF or ALS.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Schweinwerfer

Don't insinuate!
On the contrary. I waited more than a year for the watch and when I ultimately got it [Salmon 40.5 LE] I could have flipped it for a profit. What did I do? I contacted the person responsible for Czapek sales in my country, returned it to him and got refunded for not a single penny more.
The truth is, the watch is underwhelming, this is why so many are on Chrono.
So before you speak up, I suggest you should get first hand experience!
I was very much in love with it when in came out. The Czapek sales rep even visited me and showed me the collection twice. As time passed I noticed it's a very generic watch and not quite an icon (which Czapek wanted to create).
Their dress watch with grand feu dial is hot, though!

There was almost no point in which you could flip a czapek for a profit. That was a mere delusion. Maybe the market was different over there I don’t know.

[Chiboy]

Originally Posted by GB-man

There was almost no point in which you could flip a czapek for a profit. That was a mere delusion. Maybe the market was different over there I don’t know.

When I saw one at a dealer in Naples (FL) which prompted me to find and follow this thread, they were asking 2x MSRP for it. Not that you could flip it for that privately, but that was their ask.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Chiboy

When I saw one at a dealer in Naples (FL) which prompted me to find and follow this thread, they were asking 2x MSRP for it. Not that you could flip it for that privately, but that was their ask.

Probably exquisite smoking straight crack.

[JR16]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Probably exquisite smoking straight crack.

I saw this there as well a year or so ago- assumed they were just taking advantage of long wait times for those with cash to burn.


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[dpap]

I own the salmon antartique in 38mm and I like it. The idea that the CW twelve devalues the brand is silly in the same way that rolex homages don’t devalue the rolex brand.

That said, watch prices have collapsed just like most bubbles when interest rates rise.

[chumbleflea]

I’m still waiting for my Czapek. I haven’t soured on the brand, and I like the look very much. It’s hard to judge watches with a “value” proposition attached. By all means, its your money.

For me, I buy a watch because I like it. I have never traded in, or sold a watch I bought. So the “value” part never changes my affinity for the watch. Others may feel different. I guess its like buying an expensive steak, eating it, and saying “hmm..it was/was not worth X” I would take a step back and say, was the meal any good?

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by dpap

That said, watch prices have collapsed just like most bubbles when interest rates rise.

You make an excellent point, as newbies have never been through market ups and downs. Wonder how the Sneakers market is doing, or those who collect Supreme, or.....

And to be fair, the recent 'everything bubble' was the most massive on a global scale than modern times have ever experienced. So some newbies who were just speculators are feeling a bit of a 'financially-based sting', as the timepieces they acquired have not changed a single bit so they have no reason to complain about the product imho.

Personally, the bubble popping illuminates who the true enthusiasts are, and it's great we enthusiasts can have a higher possibility of getting some of the timepieces we desire versus going to resource-wasting 'flippers / profiteers'.

[Bug04]

“The truth”? Wow, thanks for sharing! :-)

Originally Posted by Schweinwerfer

… The truth is, the watch is underwhelming, this is why so many are on Chrono.
…

[ChetBaker]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

You make an excellent point, as newbies have never been through market ups and downs. Wonder how the Sneakers market is doing, or those who collect Supreme, or.....

And to be fair, the recent 'everything bubble' was the most massive on a global scale than modern times have ever experienced. So some newbies who were just speculators are feeling a bit of a 'financially-based sting', as the timepieces they acquired have not changed a single bit so they have no reason to complain about the product imho.

Personally, the bubble popping illuminates who the true enthusiasts are, and it's great we enthusiasts can have a higher possibility of getting some of the timepieces we desire versus going to resource-wasting 'flippers / profiteers'.

Hear hear

[Chiboy]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Probably exquisite smoking straight crack.

Yes, it was those Exquisite crack smokers!

[dpap]

And it’s not just interest rates, a lot of demand for luxury goods comes from China, and its growth prospects are not looking great.

I think this is great news for watch lovers who despise the ‘financialization’ of watches as an investment vehicle.

That said, one of the side benefits of the recent bubble is that it spurred entry of many new watch brands into the market. Hopefully the best will survive.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by dpap

That said, one of the side benefits of the recent bubble is that it spurred entry of many new watch brands into the market. Hopefully the best will survive.

Yes indeed many new and re-launched 'brands', we've seen investment into perhaps the 'craziest' timepieces made. From crazy handcrafting to utter mechanical marvels in many different unique complications. High tide lifted all boats.

Oh, and the ladies have benefitted IMMENSELY too. When have we seen so many timepieces truly for the ladies, some with crazy complications! My wife soooo wants this....

PS: She walked by, saw me watching the video, and asked about "her watch".

[Schweinwerfer]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Yes indeed many new and re-launched 'brands', we've seen investment into perhaps the 'craziest' timepieces made. From crazy handcrafting to utter mechanical marvels in many different unique complications. High tide lifted all boats.

Oh, and the ladies have benefitted IMMENSELY too. When have we seen so many timepieces truly for the ladies, some with crazy complications! My wife soooo wants this....

PS: She walked by, saw me watching the video, and asked about "her watch".

Wow this is a stunner.
Thanks for sharing. At 280k id say still affordable to normal mortals like us.

The fountaine aux oiseaus is a different hitter though. Said to have a hefty pricetag of 10M USD

https://youtu.be/rUvHyJtETXc?si=1GNP1PEhhlvZeXT_

Real masterpieces. Which cannot be said of every brand out there...

[ap1]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Probably exquisite smoking straight crack.

lol, indeed. Covid pricing, pre Covid even

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Chiboy

Yes, it was those Exquisite crack smokers!

lol to be honest really like them. Every time I’ve been in there the service is great. Prices and service rarely align.

[JR16]

Originally Posted by GB-man

lol to be honest really like them. Every time I’ve been in there the service is great. Prices and service rarely align.

I totally agree. I’ve bought a few watches from them over the years and they are top notch- friendly, professional, trustworthy etc. But that comes at a cost. Also, to play devil’s advocate, I would imagine it can be tough to decide on pricing during periods when the market is in acute flux or trying to price a watch w low production numbers - must be harder to weigh demand vs supply in the latter case- so they see people waiting 1-2 years to get a new antartique so they try to figure out how much of a premium they can charge for someone to walk out of the store same day (or get it next day in the mail).


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