Czapek

[corky]

I Think there’s a perception that because it’s been talked about in the forums/press/tubers etc. that the issue is bigger than it really is……..

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by corky

I Think there’s a perception that because it’s been talked about in the forums/press/tubers etc. that the issue is bigger than it really is……..

One went for about 15k in moda a week ago. So resale is def down.

[Schweinwerfer]

They will have to cut production soon, I guess.
If they lower prices they will kick themselves out of the market.
I am sure, tons of people will cancel their order as in the meantime they would be served by VC, AP or the likes

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Schweinwerfer

They will have to cut production soon, I guess.
If they lower prices they will kick themselves out of the market.
I am sure, tons of people will cancel their order as in the meantime they would be served by VC, AP or the likes

That assumes people would want a VC or AP over the Czapek if given the choice. I think it’s a tough call with the AP. Not so much with the VC. I had the choice between the APRO and Czapek and took the czapek.

Different watches and different statements.


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[thesingularity7]

Originally Posted by Chiboy

Given that very few people would recognize a Czapek to begin with, I’d be surprised if an homage/ripoff/clone would impact buyers’ decisions so much.

Calling the CW a homage/ripoff/clone is a bit of a stretch considering they were designed by the same guy. But yeah, I can't imagine the existence of the Twelve causing any real problems for Czapek. The falling prices of the VCO and RO, and the shrinking of the watch hype bubble that Czapek certainly enjoyed, I think would be more believable factors.

[JR16]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

That assumes people would want a VC or AP over the Czapek if given the choice. I think it’s a tough call with the AP. Not so much with the VC. I had the choice between the APRO and Czapek and took the czapek.

Different watches and different statements.


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Totally agree, and I made the same decision !


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[Gebbeth]

It's very clear that the overall luxury watch market has slowed. There are hints and actual, objective data, to show this (Deloittes report on the luxury watch market, Watchcharts, WOS financial outlook, sales data...and more).

Now there are two ways we see this in a real way, the most obvious being secondary watch market prices. These are falling almost across the board, and even though you still have some watches selling above retail in the secondary markets, the number of pieces that have this characteristic are falling AND even for those watches still commanding a premium, the premiums are much smaller than they were just in the past 6 months, let alone the past year.

So all that, I think, is old news. But what does that mean?

To me, it means the world is coming back down to "normal." And what is "normal"?

Normal is that watches do not, generally, appreciate in value. Certainly not watches made in higher volume. It's just not natural for watches to appreciate in value. It's normally just very high-end pieces that are rare or limited in number....and even then, it's normally not a guaranty.

So if Czapek models are selling below retain in the secondary market....I mean no kidding. This is "normal." Czapek shouldn't be overly criticized for this to be happening. That is the normal course of a logical market for certain goods. Those that bought with the idea that their watch would instantly appreciate in value was not thinking logically about the market.

If people were buying Czapek as a substitute for a Nautilus or RO, then that's even more ludicrous. Isn't that Rule 1 for not buying a watch....buying a watch that is a substitute for what you really want? That's really shame on you.

If a RO or VCO is now within reach, ask yourself whether it would have been better to wait out the absolutely bonkers markets of 2020-2022, and waited for the logical, inevitable, normalization of the watch market?

The answer is YES, you should have.

But let's not make this FOMO gone horribly wrong and turn it into a diatribe against Czapek. I mean what did Czapek do wrong? I happen to like the bracelet. I happen to like the quick micro-adjust execution (better than the VCO which can pull out on its own sometimes). The Czapek bracelet is more comfortable it that it's lighter and less of a strain on the wrist. However, I don't like the 1/2 screw, 1/2 pins and sleeves, execution of the links, but ehh....nothing is perfect. Is it less refined than the RO or Nautilus bracelet? My personal opinion is that it's a mixed bag for all of these bracelets......the Nautilus still uses pins and sleeves, and no matter who is arguing that is a better system, I think that's bonkers. There is no quick micro adjust on the Nautilus bracelet nor on the RO bracelets. I think even on some RO and Nautilus bracelets, there isn't even a micro-adjust at all (and we complain about GS bracelets with no micro-adjust.....on a $10k watch let alone a $100k watch).

I mean there is no end to this bashing of one brand or another for petty little things. I do it too. I get it, for this kind of money, why not?

But let's be fair. I think a lot of the hemming and hawing is because someone bought the watch for ALL the wrong reasons, and is now complaining about the watch, not the decision making that went into buying it in the first place.

[thesingularity7]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

There is no quick micro adjust on the Nautilus

The Nautilus does have an adjustable bracelet now, on models like the 5726/1A, 5990/1A, 5990/1R, 5712/1A, 5712/1R, 5811/1G, 5740/1G, which I think is all of the current Nautilus (minus the 7XXX "ladies" watches).

[John Doyle]

Czapek took advantage of the rising tide to release their integrated bracelet watch - good on them. People are entitled to bash them because they knew they would take advantage of the market by releasing their not-so-special product when the market was at its peak. Now we will see how long the brand can survive. Same for all other "amazing independents".
Watches short term perception has changed, but not long-term. Because no one technically needs a mechanical watch anymore, it has become more of a store of value. I bet you most of the world's biggest collectors are sitting on pieces they bought for much cheaper than what they are currently valued at, and this trend will go on. What is considered modern nowadays can turn into a treasure 20 years down the line.
So imo, considering watches as assets / investment vehicle, I am all for if you hold on to them and wear them for 20 years +. If you purely buy to flip, then you are playing a dangerous game.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

It's very clear that the overall luxury watch market has slowed. There are hints and actual, objective data, to show this (Deloittes report on the luxury watch market, Watchcharts, WOS financial outlook, sales data...and more).

Now there are two ways we see this in a real way, the most obvious being secondary watch market prices. These are falling almost across the board, and even though you still have some watches selling above retail in the secondary markets, the number of pieces that have this characteristic are falling AND even for those watches still commanding a premium, the premiums are much smaller than they were just in the past 6 months, let alone the past year.

So all that, I think, is old news. But what does that mean?

To me, it means the world is coming back down to "normal." And what is "normal"?

Normal is that watches do not, generally, appreciate in value. Certainly not watches made in higher volume. It's just not natural for watches to appreciate in value. It's normally just very high-end pieces that are rare or limited in number....and even then, it's normally not a guaranty.

So if Czapek models are selling below retain in the secondary market....I mean no kidding. This is "normal." Czapek shouldn't be overly criticized for this to be happening. That is the normal course of a logical market for certain goods. Those that bought with the idea that their watch would instantly appreciate in value was not thinking logically about the market.

If people were buying Czapek as a substitute for a Nautilus or RO, then that's even more ludicrous. Isn't that Rule 1 for not buying a watch....buying a watch that is a substitute for what you really want? That's really shame on you.

If a RO or VCO is now within reach, ask yourself whether it would have been better to wait out the absolutely bonkers markets of 2020-2022, and waited for the logical, inevitable, normalization of the watch market?

The answer is YES, you should have.

But let's not make this FOMO gone horribly wrong and turn it into a diatribe against Czapek. I mean what did Czapek do wrong? I happen to like the bracelet. I happen to like the quick micro-adjust execution (better than the VCO which can pull out on its own sometimes). The Czapek bracelet is more comfortable it that it's lighter and less of a strain on the wrist. However, I don't like the 1/2 screw, 1/2 pins and sleeves, execution of the links, but ehh....nothing is perfect. Is it less refined than the RO or Nautilus bracelet? My personal opinion is that it's a mixed bag for all of these bracelets......the Nautilus still uses pins and sleeves, and no matter who is arguing that is a better system, I think that's bonkers. There is no quick micro adjust on the Nautilus bracelet nor on the RO bracelets. I think even on some RO and Nautilus bracelets, there isn't even a micro-adjust at all (and we complain about GS bracelets with no micro-adjust.....on a $10k watch let alone a $100k watch).

I mean there is no end to this bashing of one brand or another for petty little things. I do it too. I get it, for this kind of money, why not?

But let's be fair. I think a lot of the hemming and hawing is because someone bought the watch for ALL the wrong reasons, and is now complaining about the watch, not the decision making that went into buying it in the first place.

Great take.


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[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

It's very clear that the overall luxury watch market has slowed. There are hints and actual, objective data, to show this (Deloittes report on the luxury watch market, Watchcharts, WOS financial outlook, sales data...and more).

Now there are two ways we see this in a real way, the most obvious being secondary watch market prices. These are falling almost across the board, and even though you still have some watches selling above retail in the secondary markets, the number of pieces that have this characteristic are falling AND even for those watches still commanding a premium, the premiums are much smaller than they were just in the past 6 months, let alone the past year.

So all that, I think, is old news. But what does that mean?

To me, it means the world is coming back down to "normal." And what is "normal"?

Normal is that watches do not, generally, appreciate in value. Certainly not watches made in higher volume. It's just not natural for watches to appreciate in value. It's normally just very high-end pieces that are rare or limited in number....and even then, it's normally not a guaranty.

So if Czapek models are selling below retain in the secondary market....I mean no kidding. This is "normal." Czapek shouldn't be overly criticized for this to be happening. That is the normal course of a logical market for certain goods. Those that bought with the idea that their watch would instantly appreciate in value was not thinking logically about the market.

If people were buying Czapek as a substitute for a Nautilus or RO, then that's even more ludicrous. Isn't that Rule 1 for not buying a watch....buying a watch that is a substitute for what you really want? That's really shame on you.

If a RO or VCO is now within reach, ask yourself whether it would have been better to wait out the absolutely bonkers markets of 2020-2022, and waited for the logical, inevitable, normalization of the watch market?

The answer is YES, you should have.

But let's not make this FOMO gone horribly wrong and turn it into a diatribe against Czapek. I mean what did Czapek do wrong? I happen to like the bracelet. I happen to like the quick micro-adjust execution (better than the VCO which can pull out on its own sometimes). The Czapek bracelet is more comfortable it that it's lighter and less of a strain on the wrist. However, I don't like the 1/2 screw, 1/2 pins and sleeves, execution of the links, but ehh....nothing is perfect. Is it less refined than the RO or Nautilus bracelet? My personal opinion is that it's a mixed bag for all of these bracelets......the Nautilus still uses pins and sleeves, and no matter who is arguing that is a better system, I think that's bonkers. There is no quick micro adjust on the Nautilus bracelet nor on the RO bracelets. I think even on some RO and Nautilus bracelets, there isn't even a micro-adjust at all (and we complain about GS bracelets with no micro-adjust.....on a $10k watch let alone a $100k watch).

I mean there is no end to this bashing of one brand or another for petty little things. I do it too. I get it, for this kind of money, why not?

But let's be fair. I think a lot of the hemming and hawing is because someone bought the watch for ALL the wrong reasons, and is now complaining about the watch, not the decision making that went into buying it in the first place.

For sure, but I guess the point is...

They're much less competitive when their main competitor just had a huge reduction in pricing.

[ts3]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

For sure, but I guess the point is...

They're much less competitive when their main competitor just had a huge reduction in pricing.

Late here and I am slow - who had a huge reduction in pricing?

[Bmats]

Originally Posted by thesingularity7

Is there any evidence to support this? I find it hard to believe that a $2k watch could have a lasting impact on the market for a ~$25k watch. Sure they look a bit alike, but I also think (and this is my opinion) that the market for integrated bracelet sports watches has a bunch of similar looking watches.

I wasn’t in the close to buying camp, but was considering vaguely. The CW made me think no. I don’t care if there’s an homage design to an established brand, but a similar design by CW just made the Czapek design seem like one of many integrated bracelet steel watches—and made me think about looking around at all of them.

None of that means it’s not a great watch, completely different level from CW, etc. Just my reaction, which maybe suggests I’m not the target audience anyway.

[GB-man]

CW has zero to do with czapeks being 40-50% off preowned it’s just the reality of the current market, which happens to be more in line with the norm over the past 20 years. The options at 20-25k are plentiful right now and they were absolutely barren 2-3 years ago.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by GB-man

CW has zero to do with czapeks being 40-50% off preowned it’s just the reality of the current market, which happens to be more in line with the norm over the past 20 years. The options at 20-25k are plentiful right now and they were absolutely barren 2-3 years ago.

yup

[Bmats]

Originally Posted by GB-man

CW has zero to do with czapeks being 40-50% off preowned it’s just the reality of the current market, which happens to be more in line with the norm over the past 20 years. The options at 20-25k are plentiful right now and they were absolutely barren 2-3 years ago.

I don’t think any CW effect has anything to do with the resale value/preowned market—which I generally can care less about. But (for me) I think it affects whether some people might get one, perhaps precisely for the reason you say: the options in the 20-25K market are plentiful.

For a relatively new brand it hurts the differentiation to have something that some people might think are similar at a fundamentally different price point.

Now maybe I’m just the wrong consumer and the brand isn’t directed at me. That’s fine. I do like some of their other pieces.

[enjoythemusic]

While i respect CW and have the C1 Bel Canto, it's no Czapek.

Seiko and many, many others make watches that look like the Submariner. Funny thing is, you can't see the Submariner's movement like you can Czapek.

[AlyRba]

What’s with people suggesting CW got the Czapek Antarctique value to do down. They are two vastly different price point products. In all probability, an average CW buyer may not even be looking to buy more than a $3k watch. So they were not a Czapek buyer to begin with. Streamliner, Antarctique, and AE XPS are positioned as an alternative to the likes of Royal Oak and Overseas and thus appeal to the buyers shopping at that price point. It’s ludicrous to think that CW releasing a budget version of Antarctique impacted the value of Czapek.

Everything is down right now. A Gronefled Principa is listed for $35k compared to $50k+ 12 months ago. Sub LV can be had for $14.5k compared to $20k 12-14 months back. Lange 1815 Chronos were touching $70k+ early last year and now are back to $55k range. So it is not Czapek alone.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by AlyRba

What’s with people suggesting....

It's not just TRF's Czapek thread. Am also seeing this within sneakers and other 'collectables'. Seems to me that speculators are hurting as they have (probably) never experienced a downturn in the market (watches, sneakers, Supreme, etc).

Perhaps they are upset about being on the losing end of a financial bubble? Commercial real estate is taking on enormous devaluation right now.

[thesingularity7]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

While i respect CW and have the C1 Bel Canto, it's no Czapek.

Seiko and many, many others make watches that look like the Submariner. Funny thing is, you can't see the Submariner's movement like you can Czapek.

Attachment 1418148

That movement looks gorgeous

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by thesingularity7

That movement looks gorgeous

Agreed, when i first saw drawings of it years ago i was hooked.

FYI, to be fair to all, here's what the CW's Sellita’s higher-end SW300-1 looks like for Ti pieces. CW's basic The Twelve uses the lower end Sellita SW200-1. So below is as good as CW gets for The Twelve.

So it's pretty obvious to me we appear to have a bit of trolling for CW on this thread imho.

Also noticed trolling in other recent threads on TRF as the market is getting back to relative norms.

[Chiboy]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Agreed, when i first saw drawings of it years ago i was hooked.

FYI, to be fair to all, here's what the CW's Sellita’s higher-end SW300-1 looks like for Ti pieces. CW's basic The Twelve uses the lower end Sellita SW200-1. So below is as good as CW gets for The Twelve.

So it's pretty obvious to me we appear to have a bit of trolling for CW on this thread imho.

Also noticed trolling in other recent threads on TRF as the market is getting back to relative norms.

Attachment 1418201

In my experience, homage/ripoff designs from much less expensive watch alternatives are usually focused on making the dials, case shapes and/or bracelets look somewhat similar. It isn't that expensive to make an inexpensive watch or car look like a Patek or a Ferrari from the outside (and from a distance). Making the movement or engine look comparable is a much different story and I have never really seen that done.

[texasmade]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

It's not just TRF's Czapek thread. Am also seeing this within sneakers and other 'collectables'. Seems to me that speculators are hurting as they have (probably) never experienced a downturn in the market (watches, sneakers, Supreme, etc).

Perhaps they are upset about being on the losing end of a financial bubble? Commercial real estate is taking on enormous devaluation right now.

Don't forget car dealers are also taking it up the @%%. Everyone got super greedy during Covid thinking they could make an easy $.

[enjoythemusic]

Agreed Robert, greed happened, enabled by the world's largest central bank financial bubble. And this is when those angry with their personal decisions may lash out angrily as their easy profits turn the other way. Perhaps they got into horology for 'the wrong reasons'. Hopefully they study why the economy... and what entities are to blame.

Personally, my longstanding passion for horology has experienced its ups and downs over the decades. We do need a bit of compassion for newbies who fell for the bubble / rappers bragging / fronting / etc .... and for those who got scammed by backpacker 'greys', etc. There's been a lot of stupidity.... a whole lot.... and greed out there.

A lot of people did very well buying and selling, yet like the game Hot Potato, eventually, someone gets struck.

Of course if you love horology, it's great to have Czapek creating exceptional mechanical timepieces.

[Gebbeth]

I have many watches that I know will go down in value significantly. That's okay with me. That is a "usual" market for watches, and I didn't expect any differently.

That being the case, some of my watches are keepers because of the way they look, the way they make me feel when I wear it, the practicality of some models, the ability to hand down as something of myself that will be, hopefully, meaningful to my kids.

I can't put a dollar figure on this, which is why I have not sold any of the watches I have bought. I am too connected to these watches to let go. So it's never been a financial thing for me.

Now that being said, I don't think the majority of my watches will be worth $0 dollars in 20 years. There will always been some residual value to these watches, which is fine. It might do in a pinch. So in that respect, it's much better than buying a $10,000 sound or audio/video system with $30K speakers. That will be electronic junk in 20 years.

I would say even a car that is worth $80k now, may depreciate into nearly nothing in 20 years. You might get scrap costs at best. So there is that.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

So in that respect, it's much better than buying a $10,000 sound or audio/video system with $30K speakers. That will be electronic junk in 20 years.

Good one LOL! See, we suggested to you not to get Bose but you went ahead anyway and....

But sure, i'll take the troll-bait, there's value in a literal lifetime of hearing great tunes that sound epic. All the aural art you desire. And while timepieces have never been said in studies to improve health / family / Alzheimers / etc........ music sure has :)

https://time.com/4214322/apple-sonos-music-happier/

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/heal...ung-with-music

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...e-202207252786

Tons more data if you look online about the benefits of music. Don't see any about horology or watches tho.

OH WAIT!!! This breaking news just in :)

[Gebbeth]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Good one LOL! See, we suggested to you not to get Bose but you went ahead anyway and....

But sure, i'll take the troll-bait, there's value in a literal lifetime of hearing great tunes that sound epic. All the aural art you desire. And while timepieces have never been said in studies to improve health / family / Alzheimers / etc........ music sure has :)

https://time.com/4214322/apple-sonos-music-happier/

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/heal...ung-with-music

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...e-202207252786

Tons more data if you look online about the benefits of music. Don't see any about horology or watches tho.

OH WAIT!!! This breaking news just in :)

The value of music is forever.....the value of the sound system, not so much.

[~JJ]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

The value of music is forever.....the value of the sound system, not so much.

My mid-70s gear is pretty damn clean sounding with crazy detail and people are always blown away after a listening session. Have to respectfully disagree on this one

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

The value of music is forever.

Agreed. Many health benefits, plus just good ol' fun times. If i may make a humble suggestion, when making love and listening to romantic music, please play a live album.

This way you get applause every 5 minutes or so :)

....the value of the sound system, not so much.

My dad bought a pair of Tannoy 12" Gold Monitor loudspeakers back in 1971 when we lived in the UK. Grew up enjoying music on those speakers. Dad still uses them today and they sound great. So that's 50 years of great-sounding music.

All those memories....

Mom and dad dancing to Sinatra/etc, mom singing to great music.... and when they were away we 'kids' would play Rush, King Crimson, Happy The Man, Led Zep, Floyd.... Dad mainly listens to classical, jazz, and loves pipe organ music. Not sure if you've ever heard the great pipe organs live throughout the world as our family has, yet am sure you know you'll need a capable sound system to reproduce it.

To be fair, haven't looked at re-sale value of one-owner as-original 1971 Tannoy 12" Gold Monitors. Do you know? Guess they might still be worth a few British Pounds Sterling.

Oh, btw they're not for sale, as i get them when dad passes.

----
----

Oscar Wilde once said that "A fool is someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing".




.
.
.

Originally Posted by ~JJ

My mid-70s gear is pretty damn clean sounding with crazy detail and people are always blown away after a listening session. Have to respectfully disagree on this one

[Gebbeth]

Originally Posted by ~JJ

My mid-70s gear is pretty damn clean sounding with crazy detail and people are always blown away after a listening session. Have to respectfully disagree on this one

Okay, try to sell it.

That's my point. You may love it, but that's subjective. Reselling decades old electronic equipment is going to net you scrap costs.