The Official Formula One Thread!

[1st amg]

I am completely disappointed with this weekend. Not as a Ferrari fan, but an F1 fan. These stupid penalties for engines, power plants, electric nonsense and etc etc. The good old days of the best car wins, new engine and tranny whatever etc. The sport has become to restrictive, with too many regulations. This weekend with the SC car destroyed the end of the race. It should have been red flagged. Either way, the season for Ferrari is not to be. The redbull is a beast. It’s their season.


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[Lol-x]

An anticlimactic ending to the race and the whole weekend (3 days) .
Whatever you say about rules, they should promote fascinating and spectacular sporting competition. At least M. Massi gave us that above everything else.

[Speedbird-1]

Laps under S/C should always be added to race.
It's up to teams to design for all possible fuel requirements.

[INC]

Originally Posted by Speedbird-1

Laps under S/C should always be added to race.
It's up to teams to design for all possible fuel requirements.

Without knowing the exact length of the race, it's impossible to calculate the amount of fuel. Although a mandatory red flag in the last five laps could be a kind of solution, it would also be unfair to the leaders of the race and even the first ten drivers. In this case, a new sprint race would be created, which would completely nullify all previous efforts of the teams and drivers.

[77T]

There may be an answer to the disappointment of a SC finish but I don’t know what that might be. One that satisfies the desire for fans to see a stirring final lap or two - yet still be equitable to each team’s strategy and their drivers’ performance over the prior 50+ (or more) laps.

I suggest that Road Racing would not generally benefit from a “NASCAR-ification” of the ruleset, though. Their fan numbers have been reducing at the track while F1 has grown. So this is why I’m not sure what might be the best solution.


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[Speedbird-1]

Originally Posted by INC

Without knowing the exact length of the race, it's impossible to calculate the amount of fuel. Although a mandatory red flag in the last five laps could be a kind of solution, it would also be unfair to the leaders of the race and even the first ten drivers. In this case, a new sprint race would be created, which would completely nullify all previous efforts of the teams and drivers.

THAT'S the point. All teams would need to allow for perhaps 20 extra laps, but that would be the jeopardy, the choice would be with the team.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by Speedbird-1

Laps under S/C should always be added to race.
It's up to teams to design for all possible fuel requirements.

I like that idea. The whole point of this exercise is to actually "race".

On a related note, it was curious that Mercedes told George to save fuel so early in that race. Monza being at 83% full throttle over each lap, one would think that filling the car to the top would be a given.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

...one would think that filling the car to the top would be a given.

Additional weight over the minimum regulations is to be avoided. So it's a strategy to 'guess' about safety cars and such to reduce fuel weight. That's why I propose adding weight to cars for teams that have exceeded the engine, transmission, etc allotment. Faster new engine meet more weight to drag around the track.

[INC]

Frankly, none of these ideas could work when the gap between the championship leaders and the rest of the teams is so huge. Even if Max were now penalized by 5-10 kg, the race result would be the same. In addition, Max wins races so easily that he even can take care of his engine. This means that the pursuers uses their engines much more, so their engines will have to be changed more times then Maximilian have to.

In other words, it may look a good idea to hold back Verstappen a little bit for now, but it would hurt his pursuers much more later.

[enjoythemusic]

My 'proposal' is 10kgs for each instance of engine/etc overage. For example, on the third 'extra' for the season they'd be at 30 kgs of added weight. That should bring a bit of consequence teams would want to avoid.

I remember the 'boring' Michael Schumacker / Ferrari race wins over and over and over again. Sometimes a team is dominant, sure, and so the racing excitement is further down the field.

[asloper6001]

Originally Posted by Lol-x

An anticlimactic ending to the race and the whole weekend (3 days) .
Whatever you say about rules, they should promote fascinating and spectacular sporting competition. At least M. Massi gave us that above everything else.

No Mikeyyy........NO! LOL

Theres a photo on social media floating around where TOTO is flicking off a fan saying this to him. hahahaha TOTO was riding in the passenger seat of a SUV. Believe it was at Monza practice sessions.

[INC]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

My 'proposal' is 10kgs for each instance of engine/etc overage. For example, on the third 'extra' for the season they'd be at 30 kgs of added weight. That should bring a bit of consequence teams would want to avoid.

To be honest, it doesn't hurt the Red Bull team because their engine is one of the most reliable engines. Under these circumstances, your idea may even increase their dominance and ruin Ferrari's chances forever. I think this was the last year with such a huge lead. Fe. if you remember the beginning of this year, no one thought Max would have it such easy. These are all new cars, Mercedes is back in the race and Ferrari is slowly but surely improving. IMO it's worth waiting for next season.

And let me say something Ius Murmurandi. As long as Ham was able to win all the races from pole 1, no one wanted to impose such penalties on Mercedes, even though their dominance was much worse than the entire Schumacher era. But it's of course my humble opinion only.

[V25V]

The F1 product has just become worse and worse over the years, why any team other than a manufacturer still participate is beyond me. RedBull being the exception. This was one of the more exciting Grand Prix's I have seen in a while but was still a dud, the race ending under caution wasn't going to change the result in my opinion. Max was just controlling the race up front and no way was Charles going to challenge him for the win if they went green again.

Go back to NA, full floor, rip off all that external aero, drs, etc and let the boys race. The cars have too much grip and all of the gimmicky garbage like DRS will not fix the problem. Remove all of that grip, make them actually drive the cars and you will then see some better racing.

IndyCar is heading in the right direction. My .02.

[77T]

Originally Posted by V25V

Go back to NA, full floor, rip off all that external aero, drs, etc and let the boys race. The cars have too much grip and all of the gimmicky garbage like DRS will not fix the problem. Remove all of that grip, make them actually drive the cars and you will then see some better racing.

That is a very good description of F3 and they had two very eventful races at Monza.

Maybe there should be 2 WDC points-earning races for F1 drivers each weekend. A Sprint in F3 cars Saturday (with that grid based on F1 Qually) and a Sunday F1 race (with that F1 grid formed by the F3 Sprint results).


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[joli160]

Give us Masi back please.

It was obvious that a safety car was needed and should have been red flagged to avoid finishing behind a SC.

Both MV and LEC on new tyres racing a few laps is what i would have loved to see.

[Mifune]

eh... that incident is a non sequitur of the rules.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by V25V

Go back to NA, full floor, rip off all that external aero, drs, etc and let the boys race.

Yes!

If i may suggest, please remove many 'electronic aids' too. Imho Ferrari's last true Driver's Car for public roadways was the F40.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

My 'proposal' is 10kgs for each instance of engine/etc overage. For example, on the third 'extra' for the season they'd be at 30 kgs of added weight. That should bring a bit of consequence teams would want to avoid.

I like that idea too Steven!! Teams have found a loophole and are not in need of engines but rather strategically taking the penalty at a track that is easy to go from back to front and then putting the engine away for a later date. Remember Bottas last year where he took an engine every other race? That is not in the spirit of the rules and you shouldn't be able to stockpile P/U.

Originally Posted by asloper6001

No Mikeyyy........NO! LOL

Theres a photo on social media floating around where TOTO is flicking off a fan saying this to him. hahahaha TOTO was riding in the passenger seat of a SUV. Believe it was at Monza practice sessions.

It was in Zanfoort where the Dutch fans were saying it. I have a photo of Toto giving them the bird but might not sit well with the moderators here.

[V25V]

Originally Posted by 77T

That is a very good description of F3 and they had two very eventful races at Monza.

Maybe there should be 2 WDC points-earning races for F1 drivers each weekend. A Sprint in F3 cars Saturday (with that grid based on F1 Qually) and a Sunday F1 race (with that F1 grid formed by the F3 Sprint results).


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All this nonsense going on with Herta makes me even less interested in F1. Its comical to me that F2 gets more super license points than IndyCar.... they are so full of themselves to the point where it makes them overlook a once in a lifetime talent who would be a great addition to the grid. Beyond lame.

[SDGT3]

How many points does Latifi have?

The FIA doesn't govern Indycar and thus they penalize Indy drivers based on their made up point system. The bias is obviously laughable considering the amount of talent in Indycars including several former F1 drivers and multiple Indy 500 winners. Yes, they are "former" F1 drivers, but they were in F1 for years and Herta or anyone else in the series is racing against these guys on a regular basis.

Let's not forget Herta did a test in last year's McLaren at Portugal and was very competitive. O'Ward and other McLaren Indy drivers are also a future consideration for F1 in the not too distant future.

I'm not comparing Herta to either one of these next 2 drivers, but Peter Sauber petitioned the FIA and Bernie heavily to bend the rules for Kimi as he didn't have near the amount of points necessary and had only been in 23 car races total before coming to F1. Max also skipped from F3 to F1 IIRC and that seems to have worked out okay too.

[77T]

I think rules are there to be respected - but I don’t have a dog in this hunt.

Plus, there are other drivers in the market who have the Super Licence points necessary.

If Herta gets an exemption, I hope he gets a fair shake and an honest seat.

ILO deserves a shot after splitting his time between IndyCar and as reserve driver for the Alfa Romeo F1 team the last two seasons. Plus he knows the FIA tracks in EMEA.

So we will wait and see…


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[V25V]

Liberty Media, a US based company, now owns F1.

Do we want an American driver on that grid or no? If yes, give him some stupid license and lets see what he can do. If not, keep playing this game that any race outside of the US is more valuable than what we have here, which is complete nonsense. Oh unless you participate in US F4..... which is a complete joke. And I believe even those races yield fewer points than IT, BR, etc. They are so full of themselves and yet we continue to take their washed up drivers over here in IndyCar and now NASCAR..... and its not like they come here and dominate, so why again is racing abroad more valuable than in the US?

[SDGT3]

I'll just say this: F1 is political and has always been, yet every once in a while a race breaks out which keeps us entertained. The Herta Super license is one thing and even though there's precedence with other drivers that have entered F1 without the prerequisite number of points to qualify, the bigger travesty is the complete disrespect shown to the Andretti Racing effort to enter F1 from Toto Wolff, Stefano D and other F1 leaders.

[V25V]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

I'll just say this: F1 is political and has always been, yet every once in a while a race breaks out which keeps us entertained. The Herta Super license is one thing and even though there's precedence with other drivers that have entered F1 without the prerequisite number of points to qualify, the bigger travesty is the complete disrespect shown to the Andretti Racing effort to enter F1 from Toto Wolff, Stefano D and other F1 leaders.

Yeah, agree. Not sure how they could ever say that adding the name Andretti to the list of teams on the grid would not "add value". Yet we have 2 US races on the calendar and soon to be a 3rd, yet we are going to throw out road blocks to bring in a US team or a US driver? Why would we even continue to bother with this? What a waste.....

[77T]

On Andretti Autosport F1, the cart is before the horse methinks.

First, investing and developing a team based out of Indianapolis was naive. Most racing teams are elsewhere and so is the talent.

Then attempting to acquire a majority stake in Sauber (who runs Alfa Romeo F1 team) and stumbling. (Read: Ford thinking he could control Enzo)

Lastly, having a potential engine supply deal with Renault? Unsurprisingly, Laurent Rossi (CEO Alpine), who headed the talks, hasn’t released confirmation of a deal.

In other words Michael Andretti says much but doesn’t deliver a deal. We’ve seen it before.

22 or 24 or even 26 cars on an F1 grid?

It’s possible, but most pit lanes struggle to give enough room for the 20 we have.

And for the quality of racing, having 2 or 4 or even 6 more moving chicanes on the track during Qually and Race doesn’t add to the sport methinks.

Just my 2¢

PS: Don’t see a happy ending for Super License exemption applicants…just a fly on the wall…


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[V25V]

Originally Posted by 77T

On Andretti Autosport F1, the cart is before the horse methinks.

First, investing and developing a team based out of Indianapolis was naive. Most racing teams are elsewhere and so is the talent.

Then attempting to acquire a majority stake in Sauber (who runs Alfa Romeo F1 team) and stumbling. (Read: Ford thinking he could control Enzo)

Lastly, having a potential engine supply deal with Renault? Unsurprisingly, Laurent Rossi (CEO Alpine), who headed the talks, hasn’t released confirmation of a deal.

In other words Michael Andretti says much but doesn’t deliver a deal. We’ve seen it before.

22 or 24 or even 26 cars on an F1 grid?

It’s possible, but most pit lanes struggle to give enough room for the 20 we have.

And for the quality of racing, having 2 or 4 or even 6 more moving chicanes on the track during Qually and Race doesn’t add to the sport methinks.

Just my 2¢

PS: Don’t see a happy ending for Super License exemption applicants…just a fly on the wall…


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Most racing teams are elsewhere and so is the talent?

Man, I gotta say..... It really peeves me when I read/hear things like that. So you are saying that those on the other side of the pond are superior to those here when it comes to motorsport? If that is the case, why don't these drivers and/or teams come here and clean the floor with everyone? Carlin came, didn't happen. McLaren is here, they are fine but again, didn't happen. What team from Europe have come to the US to compete here and shown they are superior to what we have? In karting, we have big euro driver/teams come over to our shores and they do not come even close to dominating. I fail to understand the mindset that we are inferior to those abroad when it comes to talent of not only driving a racing machine but also operating a team. Would it take time to build up an operation and be even remotely competitive? Sure. Lets not forget, HAAS started racing in 2016. Have they done great? No, but they have got a lot better. Will pretty much any team other than a factory operation compete with Ferrari, Mercedes or the outlier RedBull? No chance but that is the case for 99% of any racing teams on the planet.

[77T]

Originally Posted by V25V

Most racing teams are elsewhere and so is the talent?

Man, I gotta say..... It really peeves me when I read/hear things like that. So you are saying that those on the other side of the pond are superior to those here when it comes to motorsport? If that is the case, why don't these drivers and/or teams come here and clean the floor with everyone? Carlin came, didn't happen. McLaren is here, they are fine but again, didn't happen. What team from Europe have come to the US to compete here and shown they are superior to what we have? In karting, we have big euro driver/teams come over to our shores and they do not come even close to dominating. I fail to understand the mindset that we are inferior to those abroad when it comes to talent of not only driving a racing machine but also operating a team. Would it take time to build up an operation and be even remotely competitive? Sure. Lets not forget, HAAS started racing in 2016. Have they done great? No, but they have got a lot better. Will pretty much any team other than a factory operation compete with Ferrari, Mercedes or the outlier RedBull? No chance but that is the case for 99% of any racing teams on the planet.

The talent pool I meant was F1 team talent - not drivers alone.

The only top level single seater talent pool here (outside of Haas) is IndyCar.

The reality is travel and working from a U.S. base is more difficult for an EMEA based championship.


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[SDGT3]

Yea, I don't buy the 22-26 cars on grid argument either as F1 has had those numbers in the past. The talk now is that the current teams don't want to split the prize money any further, but doubt a new operation like Andretti would take away from the Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull's.

It's good when we see a Montoya go over to F1 and do well and when a Kimi competes in the recent race at Watkins Glen with NASCAR. I saw nothing but acceptance for Kimi with great anticipation. It's unfortunate that the same isn't reciprocated.

Agree that having a lone base in the US would be difficult, but that doesn't mean a dual base can't be made like HAAS or like some of the teams have chassis and engine development at other sites.

[V25V]

Originally Posted by 77T

The talent pool I meant was F1 team talent - not drivers alone.

The only top level single seater talent pool here (outside of Haas) is IndyCar.

The reality is travel and working from a U.S. base is more difficult for an EMEA based championship.


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Yeah and why HAAS has an operation in the UK, I would assume Andretti would do something similar. HAAS HQ is in NC however.

We have plenty of talent here in the US on sportscar and indycar programs, some with F1 or international motorsport experience. Again, we have had euro teams come here and have them now. They are not showing they are dominant in any way. I do not think you would need to just solely pluck from competitors to build a team and Andretti would have the resources to get good people onboard. Would they compete with the top teams? No, not right away and likely never. But that is why I fail to understand why any team would want to participate in the series. To echo above, my understanding on why they do not want to add another team is because then the pie gets cut up more ways and nobody there already wants less pie, let alone to an American.

[SDGT3]

Yesterday it was announced that Herta will participate in some FP1 for the remainder of the year since his Indycar duties have concluded. That would have helped with superlicense points but today I read that Red Bull is not going to pursue Herta in the Alpha Tauri for 2023. Unknown if this affects his FP1 opportunities but the argument of Herta in an AT next year are not moot.

It's getting late in the season and the 2nd seat in the AT has not been filled and Gasly has 1 foot in and 1 foot out for Alpine (as of yesterday) but perhaps he's back in because Herta's not coming in. I've got to think TSU is in. TSO has done a good job at Alfa and Giovanazzi is going to be doing some FP1 sessions as well so perhaps he lands there? Mick Schumacher may be odd man out.