Girls Coffeeshop Talk

[Jimbits76]

Maybe this...

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-...%3D95%26y%3D13

[Jimbits76]

These are all within a stones throw of my weeny 50's 3 bed semi detached nightmare!

Talk about how the other half live!

J

[Lisa]

Originally Posted by Jimbits76

Lisa

I hate to say it but all those pictures gave me a bit of a headache.

I can't believe your owner/occupiers originally got away with such a diverse style of design in one area?

The biggest issue (and I hope no American friend's take offence) seems to be identity.

Obviously swarthes of buildings in our towns here are the same architectural style due to the growth of housing areas around the industrial booms from the times.

My home town is mostly Georgian or Victorian and in fairness most new design we do today seems to replicate these periods in order to continue the aesthetic.

I suppose in the US, it's kind of the situation where most architectural movements had occured and with a blank canvas, the architects and designers could do and "borrow" whatever styles or movements they wished in their interpretations.

J

I think what happened, in Oklahoma at least, was that imitation was a sincere form of flattery! I think the property developers, back in the 1930s, were offering what was tops in style trends of that era. I have stacks of original "American Home" magazines from 1928 through the late 1930s that I got from Ebay - The pages were full of Tudor Revival and Colonial homes.

Seeing that Oklahoma City didn't get its start until 1889, there was nothing here except open spaces. Truly, the area was a blank slate. Revival styles are the best we can do here, I guess!

There is an older historic neighborhood south of use full of homes from the teens and earlier - the city's first homes. They're more Prairie Style, Arts and Crafts, and Foursquare. Maybe more "true to our roots" in style. Not borrowed so much from our British friends until that trend started a couple of decades later.

If I can find it, I'll post a link from our city's Historic Preservation pages.... there's a discussion about our historic neighborhoods and how the architectural styles came about....

[daveathall]

Wow, some truly stunning houses there, absolutely beautiful.

I live in a very small, very old terraced cottage, there are 3 cottages in the terrace and used to be the servants homes to a large stately home that is behind us, previous owners have covered the lovely stone that hides beneath the white protective covering, and also put UPVC doors and windows on the house, it has taken us a long time to renovate the inside of the house, stripping back the white and replacing the doors and windows with proper wood is the next project. It is very small but we absolutely adore it, beautiful village location, we are very lucky.

Ours is the middle one of the 3, the one on the left is how the stone should look.





This is our house, the window at the very top left is the dressing room, it is suspended above an alley way to the back, the houses interlock so I have the extra room at the front, the next door to the left has the room at the back over the alley way, hope that makes sense.

[Jimbits76]

Great stuff Dave. Claire and I love your home, the interior is stunning...so much for stereotypes...Leeds fan!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We stayed in a cottage very similar to yours in Derbyshire before William was born, typical cottage style, low ceilings, reduced joinery heads, stone masonry, log fire etc.

I have to say it was simply one of the best places we've ever stayed in.

J

[Jimbits76]

Originally Posted by Lisa

I think what happened, in Oklahoma at least, was that imitation was a sincere form of flattery! I think the property developers, back in the 1930s, were offering what was tops in style trends of that era. I have stacks of original "American Home" magazines from 1928 through the late 1930s that I got from Ebay - The pages were full of Tudor Revival and Colonial homes.

Seeing that Oklahoma City didn't get its start until 1889, there was nothing here except open spaces. Truly, the area was a blank slate. Revival styles are the best we can do here, I guess!

There is an older historic neighborhood south of use full of homes from the teens and earlier - the city's first homes. They're more Prairie Style, Arts and Crafts, and Foursquare. Maybe more "true to our roots" in style. Not borrowed so much from our British friends until that trend started a couple of decades later.

If I can find it, I'll post a link from our city's Historic Preservation pages.... there's a discussion about our historic neighborhoods and how the architectural styles came about....

To have that kind of freedom in design is just alien to me and something my colleagues and peers would love to have.

This is getting weird now...I've been a member for a year and a half and never mentioned building design or architecture...now I'm singing like a canary.

Errrmmm, okay resume normal service....boobs, Joe's colon and Star Wars is still a masterpiece, faults and all!

J

[daveathall]

Ive just found a couple of photos of the back yard, the large wall at the very back is the wall to the stately home, photos are took from the back door.









Again very small, but we love it, my wife is the gardener, she loves pottering around here.

[Lisa]

Dave, thank you so much for the pictures! You had said the cottage was over 300 years old. That's what I love about your neck of the woods - there weren't "revival" styles like we have; there were the REAL, original thing.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by Jimbits76

Great stuff Dave. Claire and I love your home, the interior is stunning...so much for stereotypes...Leeds fan!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We stayed in a cottage very similar to yours in Derbyshire before William was born, typical cottage style, low ceilings, reduced joinery heads, stone masonry, log fire etc.

I have to say it was simply one of the best places we've ever stayed in.

J

Thank you very much Jim

Leeds stereotype eh, bet you think I wear a flat cap and walk me whipets every morning.

[Lisa]

Originally Posted by Jimbits76

To have that kind of freedom in design is just alien to me and something my colleagues and peers would love to have.

This is getting weird now...I've been a member for a year and a half and never mentioned building design or architecture...now I'm singing like a canary.

Errrmmm, okay resume normal service....boobs, Joe's colon and Star Wars is still a masterpiece, faults and all!

J

Bear in mind, too, Jim - this neighborhood was planned and built in the 1930s. Design requirements have no doubt changed a lot over the years. I imagine today's architects face the same kinds of restrictions that may frustrate you and your colleagues at times.

[DSJ]

Bitsy, our homes built pre WWII were all pretty much hand crafted, and the neighborhoods of that vintage show a lot more variety. We went through imitation phases and one can often date the vintage of a neighborhood by its archtectural style, be it Victorian, French Revival, Greek/Egyptian Revival, Craftsman, Tudor, Art Deco/Art Moderne, Mediterranean. Insofar as identity, most neighborhoods built after WWII, particularly through the 70's are very similar and those neighborhoods often suffer from identity issues and have now become "first ring slums."

[Jimbits76]

Originally Posted by daveathall

Thank you very much Jim

Leeds stereotype eh, bet you think I wear a flat cap and walk me whipets every morning.

Nah I was thinking huge gaffe, red brick, wrought iron gates, magnet kitchen, laminate floors, over never used, curry foil trays on granite sideboards....you know the type...then I remembered it's more the style of that other "United"...them from across the way.

Your place is gorgeous and your wife and yourself should be very very proud...not often you see somewhere tat looks like a showhome yet feels so warm and homely!!!!!



J

[Jimbits76]

Originally Posted by Lisa

Bear in mind, too, Jim - this neighborhood was planned and built in the 1930s. Design requirements have no doubt changed a lot over the years. I imagine today's architects face the same kinds of restrictions that may frustrate you and your colleagues at times.

I guess. We're governed especially by conservation and listing...basically touch it or do anything unsympathetic and you're in trouble.

I had a client once who tore down his chimney on a 1800's cottage. He then extended the building fairly tastefully but was caught by the conservation officer.

Upon refusing to reintate the chimney to it's former glory, he was fined £10000 and given a 6 month suspended prison term.

It would have been hard to tell him "I told you so" so I put it in a letter instead


J

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by Lisa

Dave, thank you so much for the pictures! You had said the cottage was over 300 years old. That's what I love about your neck of the woods - there weren't "revival" styles like we have; there were the REAL, original thing.

Thank you very much Lisa.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by Jimbits76

Nah I was thinking huge gaffe, red brick, wrought iron gates, magnet kitchen, laminate floors, over never used, curry foil trays on granite sideboards....you know the type...then I remembered it's more the style of that other "United"...them from across the way.

Your place is gorgeous and your wife and yourself should be very very proud...not often you see somewhere tat looks like a showhome yet feels so warm and homely!!!!!



J

Thank you once again Jim and thank you for not using the L (Lancas, nah cant seem to be able to say it fully ) word, still giggling like a school kid at your post "Curry foil trays" thats just set me off again, Im laughing tears, brilliant.

[Carolina]

OK, I'm changing the subject.


Would a dwarf Alberta Spruce do well in a large clay pot -- say, 16 inch diameter opening?

[daveathall]

Yes, but keep well watered, may have to re pot into larger pot in years to come.

[Carolina]

Originally Posted by daveathall

Yes, but keep well watered, may have to re pot into larger pot in years to come.

Thanks, Dave, They grow pretty slowly, and at some point I can put it in the front yard.

[DSJ]

Since most Americans came from Europe, it's only natural that their homes would look similar or inspired by some of the great designs. We certainly have our own (Craftsman, Prairie School, rustic/log), most were amalgamated, inspired or borrowed from European styles.

Jim, I'm confused by your statements.

[jdc]

Originally Posted by DSJ

Since most Americans came from Europe, it's only natural that their homes would look similar or inspired by some of the great designs. We certainly have our own (Craftsman, Prairie School, rustic/log), most were amalgamated, inspired or borrowed from European styles.

Jim, I'm confused by your statements.

David I am guessing old "Frank Lloyd Wright"76 is talking about the mixture of styles in one street which is something you don't really see over here

[Lisa]

Originally Posted by DSJ

Since most Americans came from Europe, it's only natural that their homes would look similar or inspired by some of the great designs. We certainly have our own (Craftsman, Prairie School, rustic/log), most were amalgamated, inspired or borrowed from European styles.

Jim, I'm confused by your statements.

I am, too, but I love him anyway!

[Lion]

Dave, you and your wife have a beautiful garden with lots of color and textures in a smaller type area!!!

[Jimbits76]

Originally Posted by jdc

David I am guessing old "Frank Lloyd Wright"76 is talking about the mixture of styles in one street which is something you don't really see over here

Cheers Martin!

What was confusing about that?

In the UK you would never see such a diverse range of architectural movements in such close proximity...in fact I'd imagine it's the same in most places in Europe.

Hence the identity thing....

J

[Lion]

Originally Posted by Carolina

OK, I'm changing the subject.


Would a dwarf Alberta Spruce do well in a large clay pot -- say, 16 inch diameter opening?

Carol, you can grow them in pots. Start out with small trees in 6" pots(approximately about a 12" to 15" tall) and plant them in 10" to 12" containers. As Dave said you will probably need to water them everyday in the summertime so they won't wilt. The only problem would be if you got a hard frost in the winter(hardly likely in your zone) the pots are above ground and the roots could freeze!!!

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by Lion

Dave, you and your wife have a beautiful garden with lots of color and textures in a smaller type area!!!

Thank you very much.

[away36]

Originally Posted by daveathall

Ive just found a couple of photos of the back yard, the large wall at the very back is the wall to the stately home, photos are took from the back door.

Again very small, but we love it, my wife is the gardener, she loves pottering around here.

Wow! That garden is breathtaking! I can just imagine sitting there with a book on a beautiful summer day! Kudos to your wife!!!

[Jimbits76]

Allow me to expand...

I would agree that with the high levels of immigration to the US from Europe etc, it is only natural that cultural interests seep into the public conciousness.
Take for example music....it's been well documented that African slaves sold to US landowners by Europeans took their own form of music which included many "blue notes" this style of music transgressed it's boundaries and eventually formed Rock and Roll and Pop music as we know today.
This will be mirrored in art and literature (folk tales, mythology...see Joseph Campbell etc)
Now, it is obviously the same with Architecture.

When I mention identity it is difficult to remember that the country is such a large place.

I would imagine most native american or original settler buildings do not stand today (although I'm probably wrong). It is probably a broad generalistaion to say it but my thinking would be that original settlements either from the pilgrim era or the native American era prior to that, would have been of simple wooden construction and not entirely prepared to deal with the climate and elements over the following 2 or 3 centuries.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I would imagine most of the oldest buildings in your land would be in the South or Texas areas.

I imagine that Spanish and Mexican forays into US terriories and their resulting building of mini townships would borrow that architectural style. Places such as the Alamo etc show a huge Spanish/Med' influence and can be compared with older buildings in latin american countries (Cuba etc).

Following that, your country went through Georgian, Greek, French, Victorian, Italian and as david mentioned there were also styles such as arts and craft and frontier styles.

Now my point was....

In a country that founds an architectural style, say for example the UK...we would go through say Tudor, Elizabethan, Palladian, Victorian, Jacobethan, Georgian etc. Now the movement in vogue would mean that the majority of dwelling houses built in an area would follow that style of architecture. Say for example a port town would grow steadily and the original architectural styles would be prominent closest to the port area. Now as the town grew and further workers homes were required, the town would push out and expand perhaps during a transitional period of architectural styles. In one town you may find it is georgian around the port or market but expands into Victorian the further you get away from the traditional central business district.

What you wouldn't find would be areas of Georgian, Victorian, Tudor, Baroque and the like found in close proximity.

London and it's expansion would obviously be a great point to look at.

Now this sounds a little like the Eddie Izzard joke about miami..."This is an original building and over fifty years old...."

In the US and judging from Lisa'd photos and descriptions the architectural style seems to be neoclassical...whether that is greek revival or Tudor revival etc.
That is why I made the statement about identity. as both a designer and a developer I have to pick up on the vernacular, being sensitive to the historic and architectural surroundings.
In an area like where Lisa lives, I wouldn't have a clue where to start.
That isn't knocking that, there are some beautiful homes in those photos, I actually adore Lisa's present home. However, the varying styles of neoclassic design is something that is just impenetrable to my way of thinking.
Sure, we interpret Georgian design with plain frontage and narrow vertical fenestration when designing present buildings in my town since the planning authority's demands that we are sympathetic to the current styles.

For example, I could not design and propose a chalet style home with dormer windows to sit beside a traditional two story Georgian home.

Those are just the rules we live and design by, hence my comment regarding the blank canvas and the freeedom of design.

Ironically, most 'bread and butter' architecture in the UK today would follow the principles of an american architect in that "form follows function".

Hope that clears things up a little.

J

[DSJ]

Jim I (and I suspect others) appreciate your clarification and expansion of your thoughts, as earlier it was perceived, at least by me, as an affront on how our home designs have evolved over the relatively short 400+ years of European settlement across the North American continent.

Your assumptions are mostly correct. Allow me to assist with your further curiosity. Most pre-Columbian structures are indeed gone, save for ones hewn from stone (Google mesa verde indians images). The oldest western structures are homes and public buildings in New England (i.e. saltboxes from the 1700's on), and Spanish colonial structures similar to the Alamo. Many of the old Plantation estate homes of the rural south also remain. Of particular and personal interest are the Spanish missions built in California from 1769 through 1823, many of which were still extant, though largely rebuilt/rehabilitated due to earthquakes.

Most of the 19th Century America was one of expansion, so many structures of that vintage are either gone, deteriorating (in ghost towns), or have been restored and renovated. IMO, the USA really got into building serious structures after 1780 or so, accelerating upwards (both literally and in speed) after the advent of the elevator. The skyscraper is truly an American invention. Also of note were the many Richardson/Romanesque structures built in that time, including some large homes. Many state capitol buildings, city halls and great railroad depots were built in that era. Insofar as homes, the finest homes in the latter 19th and early 20th century were inspired by the great residences of Europe. They often have an American flair, but were, by in large a neo-something of a classic structure. These large homes were usually the inspiration for smaller homes and even developed tracts. Great examples include those in Newport RI, Biltmore in NC, Hearst Castle in CA, and MANY others. Some even looked like medieval castles.

At the turn of the previous century, cities started experiencing significant growth, but the homes were still largely hand-crafted and frequently individually designed. My family developed neighborhoods in New York, Kansas City and Palo Alto, each in different periods, and in different styles. Many American houses from 1880 to 1910 were in a pretty rudimentary style, clapboard 2-stories, front and back porch. This evolved into the Craftsman style, waistcoat, then the many revival styles, including Tudor. The tall art deco/moderne style skyscrapers, art, locomotives, etc. spurned a brief but very beautiful (IMO) style in homes shortly before WWII. Most examples of these homes tend to be in the sourthern states. After the war was the baby boom, and houses, through necessity tended to be very generic and we have vast tracts, even cities, of houses that appear nearly identical from the outside, and certainly share the same style of the generic "ranch" or "rambler." These homes are not comparatively desireable. In the late 60's and 70's we saw the split-level, then the return of quasi-retro styles, but in more generic iterations. These houses in east, south and mid-west tend to be vinyl sided, brick or a combination, and while typically larger than homes from beforehand lack much handwork. Out west you'll typically see most of them in stucco and vaguely resembling some sort of mediterranean style. I've attached this 1990's type sprawl from Newport Beach below.

Today's American urban home buyers tend to be of two seperate and distinct schools. Some want the 20th century American dream of a big home on a big lot, preferably new and they seek the suburbs and exurbs in search of hopefully a new home or one that seems new. The other group is one that realizes that we don't need 4,000 square-feet for a family of 3, are bored of the sameness that exists in the suburbs, appreciate being closer to the city center, wish to reinvest in our cities, enjoy the urban forest of mature trees, and appreciate the uniqueness of the individual homes, even "Norman Rockwell" like feeling of an old neighborhood where you want to get to know your neighbors. You can guess which camp I'm in.

[East Bay Rider]

Built in 1900. 1,147 square feet. Perfectly sized for a family of 3.





Don't be misled. It's more than it looks. Very comfortable and economical to live in. I'll try to post pics indoor pics this weekend.

[Lisa]

Dave, you explained things better than I could have!

I found some info in our city's historic preservation guidelines document at the City Planning Division website. It's a lot to wade through, but thought you might find it interesting, and it even mentions why there's such a mixture of styles in some of the historic neighborhoods.

"The Oklahoma City neighborhoods that are presently historic districts were all developed beginning with a building and annexation boom about 1900, and the styles and reflected architectural influences of the dwellings in the districts exhibit the stylistic fashions prevalent in the western U.S. during the various periods of their development. By 1900, professional periodicals such as Western Architect, Gustav Stickley’s Craftsman magazine, general publications such as the Ladies Home Journal and, regionally, Holland’s Magazine, were among the many publications that provided homeowners and builders with prolific images of fashionable houses in the latest styles. Specific designs, with detailed building plans could even be purchased from “catalogues,” and “kit houses” arrived by railroad car at the owner’s local lumber dealer with pre-cut lumber and all necessary materials ready for assembly on site. Local architects and builders offered their clients a multiplicity of plan and detail offerings. Even popular culture influenced house style choices: some believe that the popularity of historical revival styles during the 1920s stemmed in part from the romantic images of faraway places and picturesque settings portrayed in the movies, which the average American attended twice each week. Most architectural styles occurred in both large and small examples, as design trends were usually adapted to variations in family size and client budget."

Here is a little history from the same site....

"What was once known as Oklahoma Station (and later to become Oklahoma City) was located in unassigned lands in Oklahoma Territory which had been reserved for the Creek and Seminole Indians, but had never been occupied. These lands were thrown open for a land run on April 22, 1889; at the end of the day about 10,000 homesteaders had staked out claims near the Oklahoma Station. Statehood came for Oklahoma on November 16, 1907 with Guthrie as the state capital. In 1910, there was a petition to move the state capitol from Guthrie to Oklahoma City; a popular vote was held, and Oklahoma City won.

During its early years, Oklahoma City’s wealth derived from cattle, growth of the city as a regional center and its stature as the state capital. While most of the settlers lived on their land, there were several who developed commercial and residential property and built some of the finest homes in Heritage Hills. Victorian, and later bungalow, prairie and revival-style homes were built to house the growing middle-class. These original homes were within walking distance of downtown, but with the arrival of the streetcar in the early 1900s, residential neighborhoods began to extend from downtown. The city’s population had grown to 64,000 in 1909 and in the following years, there was unprecedented growth in the city with construction reaching new heights.

Growth continued during World War I, and was soon supported by yet another boom – oil was discovered in the City in 1928. While Oklahoma City was buffered from the recession of 1929 by this new prosperity, it could not completely shield itself from the national depression, feeling its effects in the early 1930s. By then, many of the city’s residential neighborhoods that would become its historic districts had been established and were thriving. With the conclusion of World War II, planning patterns in Oklahoma City dramatically changed with much residential growth occurring in new suburban development to the north of downtown and the current historic neighborhoods. Many of these new residential developments lacked the cohesiveness and architectural character of design of the historic neighborhoods. With time, this has resulted in a resurgence of appreciation for the uniqueness and quality of life in the historic neighborhoods, and a desire to protect their special qualities."