Watchout for this 16760 GMT

[Welshwatchman]

Originally Posted by jeff hess

Mr. Springers just LOVES to point out every small perceived or real indiscretion, making it a huge deal, while hiding behind and avatar AND while being a competitor.

Jeff

You could not be farther away from the truth with that assumption.

Those who know will understand.

[harry in montreal]

I have no idea how this dispute could have ever gotten to this point.

Buyer; did you read the work refinished in the auction?

Seller with the 3 day warranty: did you ever get feedback from buyer within this time that buyer was displeased?

Seems unfortunate that this transaction got to this point - there must have been a serious cmmunication problem, or a missed email. besides, wtih these sort of things, PICK UP THE PHONE AND TALK !

I dont get it.

Harry in montreal

[Welshwatchman]

As I understand it the seller is offering a refund, quite rightly but good service nonetheless.

If they handle 10,000 watches a year as stated, that's 400 per working day. There are bound to be some nasty watches in that lot.

If the buyer does not take them up on the offer - swiftly - then I don't understand it.

[hondarto]

Thanks to all for all your supporting answers.
Let me clarify the issues from my side,
1 I have not paid attention the description well enough, as I trusted the HF (I have bought two more Rolex from them and I was quite happy with those and left positive feedback)
2 Yes in the beginning I thought that the watch was fake and sent a mail to HF immediately asking full refund. But later on I sent a mail explaining the watch might not be fake also I might not be careful for reading the listing BUT nevertheless I am not happy with my purchase because of the dial (it is like a fake rolex!)
3 So having said ‘done everything for the customer’ is not matching for me.
4 Let me repeat once again, I did not have any chance to send the watch back within 3days after I receive it. I saw the watch nearly 3 weeks later (after coming back from my trip)
5 Finally I am not happy with my watch, and thinking to change the dial as I don’t want to use it with a dial named “Good to very good; looks like what appears to be some rubbing in the center of the dial from a refinishing”

Lastly HF is finished for me I have already taken them out from my favorite seller list.
And this lesson will cost me too much as i have to change the dial in the rolex service but once again I believe that having a happy customer is always much more profitable and losing a customer is very easy comparing with earning it.
Thanks for all and thnks for springer (dont care who you are)

[hondarto]

Thanks to all for all your supporting answers.
Let me clarify the issues from my side,
1 I have not paid attention the description well enough, as I trusted the HF (I have bought two more Rolex from them and I was quite happy with those and left positive feedback)
2 Yes in the beginning I thought that the watch was fake and sent a mail to HF immediately asking full refund. But later on I sent a mail explaining the watch might not be fake also I might not be careful for reading the description of the listing BUT nevertheless I am not happy with my purchase after seeing the condition of the dial
3 So having said ‘done everything for the customer’ is not matching for me.
4 Let me repeat once again, I did not have any chance to send the watch back within three days after I receive it. As I saw the watch nearly 3 weeks later (after coming back from my trip)
5 Finally I am not happy with my watch, and thinking to change the dial as I don’t want to use it with a dial named “Good to very good; looks like what appears to be some rubbing in the center of the dial from a refinishing”

Lastly HF is finished for me I have already taken them out from my favorite seller list. This lesson will cost me too much (changing the dial is costly. I learned!) but once again I am sorry for the seller as they lost one of their good customer. I always believe that earning a customer is always much more difficult than losing it.
Thanks for all and thanks for springer (dont care who you are but for all your comments)

[jeff hess]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

I have no idea how this dispute could have ever gotten to this point.

Buyer; did you read the work refinished in the auction?

Seller with the 3 day warranty: did you ever get feedback from buyer within this time that buyer was displeased?

Seems unfortunate that this transaction got to this point - there must have been a serious cmmunication problem, or a missed email. besides, wtih these sort of things, PICK UP THE PHONE AND TALK !

I dont get it.

Harry in montreal

________________________________

Harry,
Katrina Hess here

The dial refinish was disclosed in bullet points in both auctions (in direct contradiction to the early post on this thread)

The customer received the watch express mail February 25, 2011

No contact until March 15, 2011, customers emails stating the watch is Fake (the watch is not fake) we offered a refund if he has an independent expert put it writing the watch was counterfeit. The watch and the document has not been forthcoming.

Our email system keeps emails for years and all contacts with this customer was done through the ebay messages so no email was lost.

Our telephone number is in every auction and every email we send we are not hard to get hold of even after business hours as our mobile phone number is on the message you get at the office.

We take a great deal of time and effort in descriptions and photos, we endeavor to be consistent and our terms are clear. There was no deception in this auction despite the "edited" dial condition that began this thread.

I do not hide behind avatars or weird sellers names, my name is on every item I sell and I have nothing to hide. Using my real name takes courage in the age of internet bullying by anonymous individuals who claim expertise. It was a decision we made early in our internet selling career as it promotes transparency and confidence. I am held to a level of expertise by many and strive to be accurate and consistent. I ask that those making expert determinations be equally transparent and honest.

Feel free to contact me is you have any questions. katrina.hess@hessfineart.com

[springer]

Originally posted by Time To Go

First off, Mr. Hess sorry to hear about your accident and hope that you recover soon.

It is great to see that Ms. Katrina Hess chimed in. WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

My understanding is that Ms. Hess runs the business on Ebay, which has been found to be lacking and omitting key details on watches that are questionable and do not have proper disclosure. This is not a statement that "all watches listed by Hess" fall into this category but the fact that a few have lacked the proper information.

The issue of the dial "... rubbing in the center of the dial FROM A REFINISHING"... to me seems to be dancing around the subject. It should just be called "refinished" (period). That's It! If a buyer purchases the watch after having this disclosed, so be it! Full Disclosure on EBAY.

But the spread the blame game is ridiculous. Mr. Hess answers on behalfs of discrepancies in the "Watchout" section and states that his wife runs the business. Then when a real fault is found on the auction, it is "some new guy that listed this watch" ...bla bla bla...

I think that selling behind the name "Hess" is to take advantage that Mr. Hess has his name included in a couple of books. Maybe the store should be named Hess' wife's store who lists watches without Hess' review that are entered into Ebay by employees of the store.

I think at the end Mr. Hess will make this transaction whole.

Also, taking shots at Springer is CHEAP! To those of you who do not know him, if you ever have any questions in this hobby, he will be there for you.

TTG, thanks for the kind words. It seems like yesterday that we were discussing another GMT that reminded me of the thread below. In this ebay auction, the watch did not have a warranty paper as claimed in the listing, and some other discrepancies were also noted. The seller was going to correct it, but it was re-listed without any corrections.

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=92634

[harry in montreal]

Hey Katrina,
Great post and I think that you and buyer should be able to work through it. I can understand managing the items is complex. Harry

[springer]

Posted by Katrina Hess. . .
We take a great deal of time and effort in descriptions and photos, we endeavor to be consistent and our terms are clear. There was no deception in this auction despite the "edited" dial condition that began this thread.

There was nothing edited in my original post, it is just as it was listed in your auction - nothing in the listing mentioned a re-dial. It wasn't until after ebay was contacted that the listing was changed to indicate some type of issue with the dial. This is fully documented in my posts found at posts #1 and #16. This is further documented in post #3 by Blaine. Maybe I am interpreting your comment incorrectly, but that is how it was listed originally. Additionally, as stated before here, nobody said the watch was fake.

I do not hide behind avatars or weird sellers names, my name is on every item I sell and I have nothing to hide. Using my real name takes courage in the age of internet bullying by anonymous individuals who claim expertise. It was a decision we made early in our internet selling career as it promotes transparency and confidence. I am held to a level of expertise by many and strive to be accurate and consistent. I ask that those making expert determinations be equally transparent and honest.

You are correct about the avatars here, they are everywhere - and so goes the internet. Also, I totally agree that individuals making expert determinations need to be transparent and honest. Like you, I wouldn't expect anything less from an expert.

[jeff hess]

I have just taken a good look at the image in the first post.

Is this our image?
Was it take from the auction referred to?
If so this image has been edited and our copyright data has been removed.
Why would this image be altered and what other edits may have been done?

This group of individuals have identified many counterfeit items over the years with ebay and craigslist. As someone who assists eBay with Tiffany counterfeits I understand the need and the limitations of the "trusted reporter" program, or whatever name it goes by today.

This being said it is unfortunate that in the past items deemed unequivocally counterfeit and removed from sale, along with several sellers rights to sell have been found to be not counterfeit.

When you have the power and the knowledge to make determinations that affect others livelihoods you are deemed an "expert" not a hobbyist and are therefore held to a higher level of accountability. No one with that power should cower behind the anonymity of an avatar.

I invite any local member of this forum to the office to observe our systematic methodology in listing and identifying and also that every one of our images hosted by Vendio and shown in an auction is and has been watermarked for years. If this is our image it has been altered to remove this watermark, if this has been edited what else may have been edited or omitted.

The invitation is open call me for an appt 727-896-0622

Katrina Hess

[Andad]

Would this would be a good time to close this thread??

[greekbum]

Originally Posted by directioneng

Would this would be a good time to close this thread??

I agree. Both the buyer and seller have come on here and given there side of the story and everybody has read it. For me as a reader of this section IMHO the dial was not the way it left Rolex so it was not an original dial. Others may interpret this or word this differently but I think its crystal clear. As a sometimes seller if my watch has a dial that is not the way it left Rolex I go out of my way to tell this to the potential buyer sometimes even in bold print and at the beginning of my listing as to avoid any misunderstanding latter. I am passionate about my Rolex watches and have been collecting for over 15 years. I guess if I had a questionable watch and didn't want to correct it I could offer it for sale hide and word it tricky and if the buyer realizes it latter try and defend my self but its not the way I do business. This is not pointed at any seller but in general.

[Rolex116520]

Originally Posted by directioneng

Would this would be a good time to close this thread??

X2 : I called for that several posts before . As I said this is not beneficial to any of the parties directly involved . Keeping this thread alive will only fuel the animosity in some and confirm the suspicions in others .

My personal take on this after the several PM's and mails with some of the parties involved is this :

John knows his GMT's as he seems to collect that model in particular and beware the one that lists a naf one or describes it incorrectly on Ebay . Given the amount of watches that HF lists a year there are bound to be GMT's and some discrepancies in their listings . It is maybe therefor that HF has the impression to be targeted by John .
My intimate conviction is that John does not target HF listings in particular and nor is he a competitor in the way Jeff thinks he is .
Is John a little harsher on an icon in the Rolex world and considers that he should be an example to all by not being allowed to get away with the slightest mistake ? That I do not rule out .

For what I read the buyer may have misinterpreted the description , add to that he missed the deadline for returning the goods and then seems to have wrongly formulated his motivations to obtain a refund .
I suspect that he found or someone tipped him off about the existence of this thread in the hope he would rally support for his case .

Jeff , you know that I have all the respect for you . Even if you no longer run or control HF listings on Ebay your name will always be linked to it . Your name should inspire confidence with the novice buyers and it does . Some will say the HF abuses of your name .
Therefor , Jeff I believe that HF should clear your name buy reimbursing the buyer as you are bigger then this . Then do like him and add him to the list of prohibited buyers .

[gqllc]

I guess I am still pretty confused...
1) Buyer is unhappy with watch
2) Seller finally agrees to refund said watch
3) Why doesn't the buyer just ship the watch back and get the refund instead of insisting on looking for a new dial???
4) obviously I am missing something???

[nch209]

I think this post has run its course as well. I can see both sides, but this is something that is not going to be fixed in this thread- but I hope they both can work things out somehow.

All the best!

[mastermixer]

Maybe I am misreading, but it seems like they will not refund because it is passed the three days, unless he has written proof showing the watch is fake. This cant be done because it is a refinished dial not a fake Rolex. If it was my sale I would just offer the full refund without all these conditions attached since its obvious the buyer did not understand the dial was refinished.

Originally Posted by gqllc

I guess I am still pretty confused...
1) Buyer is unhappy with watch
2) Seller finally agrees to refund said watch
3) Why doesn't the buyer just ship the watch back and get the refund instead of insisting on looking for a new dial???
4) obviously I am missing something???

[hondarto]

Let me tell you how the story ended....
I gave the watch to Rolex Geneva, the dial has changed, (of course they did not let the old dial) the periodic controls have made and after waiting a month i have received the watch like a new condition with 2 years Guarantee (with the new dial it is OK (at least itis much better than the old one)

i paid 900 CHF which is about 1050 USD.
shortly totally i have paid to much
Thanks to all contributors once again

[mrbill2mrbill2]

Originally Posted by hondarto

Let me tell you how the story ended....
I gave the watch to Rolex Geneva, the dial has changed, (of course they did not let the old dial) the periodic controls have made and after waiting a month i have received the watch like a new condition with 2 years Guarantee (with the new dial it is OK (at least itis much better than the old one)

i paid 900 CHF which is about 1050 USD.
shortly totally i have paid to much
Thanks to all contributors once again

Glad to hear you got your watch staightened out.

I cannot believe HF did not give a full refund.

HF stated they purchase 10,000 Rolexes a year and they refuse to make a refund on a purchase with misleading information. That along with accusations and endless banter from HF has left a bad taste in my mouth regarding HF. I will never conduct business with HF and I'm sure I'm not alone.

[springer]

Another Hess auction with dial issues.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=284433

[tudorman8276]

...mercy sakes.

...as I have always told my subordinates, ATTENTION TO DETAIL is of the utmost importance.

...A C C U R A C Y...is sooooo important.

[springer]

I received a message tonight regarding hessfineauctions and this thread was brought to my attention as the reader was confused on whether the dial was originally listed as "refinished" as claimed by Jeff Hess. Hess claims that the dial was properly listed on ebay as "refinished" and that I or someone edited "refinished" out of the copy of the ebay listing discussed in the first few posts found on page 1 of this thread. As you will see below, no one here edited anything out of the copy of the auction listing since the dial was never listed as "refinished" in the original ebay auction.

On my first post from Dec 21, 2010, there is a copy of the verbiage from the listing. In this listing, there is no mention that the dial is refinished.

On Dec 22, 2010, the listing was pulled by ebay.

On or about Dec 26, 2010, after ebay became involved, the auction for this 16760 GMT II was relisted on ebay by hessfineauctions and the verbiage "refinished" was added. Again, the original listing did not contain "refinished" anywhere in the listing. As Jeff Hess wrongly concluded in posts here, there was no agenda against hessfineauctions. Quoting Jeff Hess in one of his posts, he writes,

"Mr. Springer is a dealer. I am sure he is well thought of on this wonderful forum. However, please note that TWICE Mr. Springer has CLEVERLY truncated our posters description.

Mr. Springer said twice "The auction reads: Dial Condition: Good to very good; looks like what appears to be some rubbing in the center of the dial" when in reality it said "The auction reads: Dial Condition: Good to very good; looks like what appears to be some rubbing in the center of the dial FROM A REFINISHING.

Twice Mr. Springer, who is evidently a competitor of my wifes in selling of Rolex, carefully and adamantly left off F R O M A R E R E F I N I S H I N G."

While I hate to disappoint Mr. Hess, I am not a dealer nor a competitor to his wife - just a watch enthusiast trying to level the playing field for those less knowledgeable than him.

[BOA]

First three posts in the thread (from three different people) tell me all I need to know about the progression of events in real time.

No amount of claiming anything different obscures the way this played out naturally.

If anything, the auction was pulled as a result of having attention called to it.

That was scrambling, and the rest appears to be scrambling as well IMO.

[CrownMe]

easy to have good feedback when you your able to get feedbacks revised. smh

[TempoKing]

If we were playing tennis ? ...They would have said ....advantage Springer.

[CrownMe]

i dont think any regular TRF users will be buying from Hess. The sad thing is all of this could be avoided by them just pointing out any issues CLEARLY and not sugar coating it. I mean if they dont know that users on this forum are going to call there ads out by now then they might never learn lol

[springer]

There is another "Hess-mess" dial thread in the Watchout section that was started a couple weeks ago which brought this thread back to life. While I was involved in this 16760 thread originally, I can see why someone trying to read through all the posts for the first time would be somewhat confused by Jeff Hess claiming that the dial was originally listed as refinished when, in fact, the original ebay listing did not list the dial as refinished. Apparently the current thread is similar to this thread.

[springer]

Originally Posted by CrownMe

i dont think any regular TRF users will be buying from Hess. The sad thing is all of this could be avoided by them just pointing out any issues CLEARLY and not sugar coating it. I mean if they dont know that users on this forum are going to call there ads out by now then they might never learn lol

Contrary to what Jeff Hess claims, nobody that I know is "keeping book" on his auctions or I'm sure there would be many more hessfineauctions listed here in the Watchout section.