Double Red Sea Dweller -- Opinions of whether to buy...

[harrjaso]

Originally Posted by stmoore

Check the SN again. My great whites start at 5.3 mil. They weren't making double reds in the 6 million. That's getting into 79 / 80 if I recall correctly.



Also, as I said in another post - that's a service dial.



As long as you don't have a great white case (and it's a period correct case for the service dial), you still did well ....

Will do, just got some Rolex ref books yesterday. Educate me on service dial, what is that? Ser# is 6752xxx

Thanks


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[seattleal]

Originally Posted by harrjaso

Just got this one today at $13500, tried talking him down but he wouldnt budge and I could tell he was struggling with letting it go. Late 70s in great shape without box or papers. If it's in good shape and legit, that is a good price.

I got mine from a legit vintage dealer (Honolulu Time) in Hawaii. Family run business for a long time, so I know this one is real. We also checked the serial number (6xxxxxx). Owner's son David will likely see this post, sup David!

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The lume plots look questionable for a Mark IV dial - you might also want to check the VRF Dial Archive for comparison.

[stmoore]

So my 5 1665s were all made way after the double reds. Two are known as great whites, two known as "rail" dials, etc.

1) 1665 MK 1 5.4 million (the famous Harold)
2) 1665 MK 1 5.3 million (Ben at Arnold Jewelers)
3) 1665 Rail 5.7 million (M. Morgan)
4) 1665 MK 4* 6.7 million (A. Shear)
5) 1665 Rail 5.7 million - on the nato

Again, these started around 1977 ... and went into around 81.

So your case at 6.7 puts on way late - it should be a "white" case, not a red.

Rough dates: http://www.oysterworld.de/production-dates.html

Double red history / collecting: http://doubleredseadweller.com/drsdcollecting.htm

As for dials: here's a good resource: http://www.doubleredseadweller.com/w...rsd-dials.html
You have a mk 5 luminova dial. These were made to replace original red dials that were damaged. Still rolex, but just later production.

Originally Posted by harrjaso

Will do, just got some Rolex ref books yesterday. Educate me on service dial, what is that? Ser# is 6752xxx

Thanks


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[harrjaso]

Originally Posted by stmoore

So that



So my 5 1665s were all made way after the double reds. Two are known as great whites, two known as "rail" dials, etc.



1) 1665 MK 1 5.4 million (the famous Harold)

2) 1665 MK 1 5.3 million (Ben at Arnold Jewelers)

3) 1665 Rail 5.7 million (M. Morgan)

4) 1665 MK 4* 6.7 million (A. Shear)

5) 1665 Rail 5.7 million - on the nato



Again, these started around 1977 ... and went into around 81.



So your case at 6.7 puts on way late - it should be a "white" case, not a red.



Rough dates: http://www.oysterworld.de/production-dates.html



Double red history / collecting: http://doubleredseadweller.com/drsdcollecting.htm



As for dials: here's a good resource: http://www.doubleredseadweller.com/w...rsd-dials.html

You have a mk 5 luminova dial. These were made to replace original red dials that were damaged. Still rolex, but just later production.

Thanks for the 411. I'm a complete noob when it comes to subs, but that will change over the weekend. Honestly, I bought this watch because of the bezel. The cuts go all the way to the black, they are deep and sharp and look like a circle of blades surrounding the face of the watch. I even went into the Rolex store after buying it and new Submariner bezels look worn down compared to this one. The rest is just bonus, if it's double red, great, rare, cool...I like the bezel and for me, that sums up why I buy watches. I have probably 25, about 8 are rolex, and I've never sold a watch.


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[beetleything]

Originally Posted by harrjaso

Just got this one today at $13500, tried talking him down but he wouldnt budge and I could tell he was struggling with letting it go. Late 70s in great shape without box or papers. If it's in good shape and legit, that is a good price.

I got mine from a legit vintage dealer (Honolulu Time) in Hawaii. Family run business for a long time, so I know this one is real. We also checked the serial number (6xxxxxx). Owner's son David will likely see this post, sup David!

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Nice!
What a great looker that is.

[Kingair]

Originally Posted by harrjaso

Honestly, I bought this watch because of the bezel.

But still it is a nice watch

HAGWe

[harrjaso]

After doing a little research (seem to always do this AFTER I buy watches, but better late than never I guess), case is circa 1981 (6752xxx). Dial looks like Mark V (double red, closed 6, italic "ft" and "m"). Was advised it could be service dial but all I could find about that showed "SUBMARINER 2000" in white not red, and it just had SWISS at the bottom. Anyone have info showing differently? Oyster band is engraved 93150 with 585 on the clip. Is that period correct? Wondering if $13500 was fair price.




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[descartes]

Case back is also a match for a great white, not a DRSD.... Does the case have a helium escape valve? Pretty nice looking watch even if not born as a DRSD. I'd be tempted to find a period correct case.

Others who know better can opine on price.

[harrjaso]

Originally Posted by descartes

Case back is also a match for a great white, not a DRSD.... Does the case have a helium escape valve? Pretty nice looking watch even if not born as a DRSD. I'd be tempted to find a period correct case.

Others who know better can opine on price.

It does have a helium escape valve. Funny how it is complete aside from the case. I've looked for just about every part of a watch but always viewed the case as the base. Never thought to try to replace the case and keep everything else.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by descartes

Case back is also a match for a great white, not a DRSD.... Does the case have a helium escape valve? Pretty nice looking watch even if not born as a DRSD. I'd be tempted to find a period correct case.

Others who know better can opine on price.

I'd probably go a different route and track down a correct white 1665 dial. A DRSD service dial in the wrong serial numbered case would bug me. I'd also talk to the seller about it. Why wasn't this info disclosed? If this was a good vintage dealer they should have told you the watch was a mismatch, IMHO.

[harrjaso]

Originally Posted by swish77

I'd probably go a different route and track down a correct white 1665 dial. A DRSD service dial in the wrong serial numbered case would bug me. I'd also talk to the seller about it. Why wasn't this info disclosed? If this was a good vintage dealer they should have told you the watch was a mismatch, IMHO.

Definitely going to talk with them about it. I did find the correct dial for sale online. Only saw one in my quick search. It's running $1900. That would place a 1665 Great White from 81 at $15400 (not including cost to swap them out). They seem to be going for $13000. Next question becomes what could I get for the dial I've got on it?

[descartes]

The dial is typically the most valuable part of the watch and the hardest to source in good condition.

[datejust24]

Maybe a full set tops at 13k ...I myself haven't ever seen them go for 15k for just the watch

[Kingair]

Originally Posted by harrjaso

After doing a little research (seem to always do this AFTER I buy watches, but better late than never I guess) . . . . .

We'll Jason,

You went the wrong direction . . .
First read read and read, ask ask and ask for info and than buy . . .
Now you own a watch that you actually where not looking for
Correct me if I am wrong

I would have bought it thinking it was a genuine DRSD . . . and now it is 'just' a 1665 . . . with a wrong dial . . .
No offense because the 1665 is a really nice watch . . . don't shoot me

Also the people where you bought the Rolex . . . . could have told you since you stated in one of your first mails that you got it from a legit vintage dealer in Hawaii so he definitely knows all about the watch and sold it to you for that 'low' price
I would return it immediately to be honest . . . and restart my search for or a genuine 1665 or a DRSD

I would be really furious if it happens to me . . . :bang head:

And one day it might even happen to me . . . hopefully not . . . but never say never . . .

Spending that kind of money on a watch and the seller actually fooled you

It would hurt my eyes and mind each time checkin time . . .
But that's just me . . . a TRF friend

Anyway if you really like it . . . keep it

The most important thing is that if you like the watch . . . your happy and so are we

HAGWe

[Beaumont Miller II]

The seller knew what he was selling you.

You thought you were getting a great deal on a DRSD.
He knew he was selling you a 13.5k watch with a double red service dial in a case that should never have had a dial with red print.

I would return it quickly and find a correct watch with a bezel that looks "like a circle of blades", which as you say is why you bought this one.

[Baselman]

Is there a serial number inside of the caseback that matches the case - all DRSDs had this if yours has matching serial numbers of 675xxxx then sadly your case and caseback are fake also - always research and listen to TRF members views first before buying

[locutus49]

Just lurking, but WOW, you guys are good. Color me impressed.

To the owner of the sub in question, I would ask for a refund. And don't feel bad. We also have bought oil paintings over the years, and were sold a very high quality fake by a reputable dealer. He claimed he was fooled as well, but refunded the full amount. Every museum of art has fakes that they bought in good faith in their basements. And probably some on the floor that they believe are authentic. All too common.

[Lgear080]

As I originally suggested... Stay away from a deal that doesn't pass the saliency
Test. I'm also disappointed that hnl sold you this piece without the transparency
You deserved. They just know better.

You should return the watch. It's just hobbled together with good parts.

[harrjaso]

So I spoke with the owner. He said he mentioned to me it was a service dial. I'll give him benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to language barrier and my misunderstanding. I thought $13500 was going rate, didn't realize they are over $20k, that would have been big red flag. Learned a lot about reds in last two days.

He is happy to refund. Says original owner was from England and sent it to Rolex, requesting the service dial. I guess the service dial is really rare. So it's all original aside from the DR service dial. Saw the correct dial listed at $1900 after quick search, could probably find for less.

Suggestions.

Should I keep and try to get the original White dial? The owner sent it to Rolex and asked them replace the dial with the DRSD.


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[descartes]

He's not being truthful. Rolex would not provide a DR dial on request. Rolex would only provide a DR service dial for a DR. Based on this I suspect the dial and other parts (perhaps the 'circle of blades'!) may not be authentic.

[Starbucksboss]

Originally Posted by descartes

Would you buy a Double Red Sea Dweller which has a small chip in one of the number hashes, near the edge of the case. The watch is otherwise in nice condition, though polished. I can purchase it around $12K.

What say the group?

I am considering this watch against a Rail Dial Sea Dweller with a clean dial (which is also lightly polished) for around the same price.

How do you think the $12K is best spent?

Im obsessive so Id wait and hunt out a mint example and pay for it.

[harrjaso]

Originally Posted by descartes

He's not being truthful. Rolex would not provide a DR dial on request. Rolex would only provide a DR service dial for a DR. Based on this I suspect the dial and other parts (perhaps the 'circle of blades'!) may not be authentic.

Evidently they did in England only. Was told those dials are rare, took back watch and he was happy to get it back. Win win and the search begins


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[JerimiahLee]

The dial would have never been fitted to the case even during the case of service.

I suspect someone wanted a DRSD and fitted this service dial into a later case. People switch dials all the time. If you're seeking and original DRSD this is not it. David from Honolulu Time Co is a stand up guy and I hope that he will chime in to shine some insight on this piece.

[Kingair]

Originally Posted by descartes

He's not being truthful. Rolex would not provide a DR dial on request. Rolex would only provide a DR service dial for a DR. Based on this I suspect the dial and other parts (perhaps the 'circle of blades'!) may not be authentic.

That's my idea as well . . . .

Someone just wanted to own a DRSD . . . that looked OK but in his mint was beating him up over and over again

I am not an expert at all . . . but . . . with all my buddies of TRF actually I am an expert

Even for a 'cheap' watch I ask for advice . . . never hurts and saved me a lot of headaches

There is a lot of Rolex out there . . . and vintage is even a more dangerous territory

HAGWe

[Baselman]

Caseback number there ?