Think I might let this guy service my rolex for 100 bucks.

[GinNtonic]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

Soapbox.

Right and I wouldn't do a Tissot for a hundred bucks either. It would cost you the same price for the same type of Tissot that I would charge you to do a Rolex. You hand me a calendar, automatic Tissot and I'll charge you the same thing that I would charge to do a Datejust if I would even take it.

I work primarily on older Rolex.

You wouldn't believe what I find when I open up a watch sometimes. Some things you can correct and other things you just can't when you are dealing with an old watch...but the last guy who is now me...is gonna get the blame from the next guy who works on it for all the previous ills that I can't fix.

I just did an A K.....kind of rough....stem broken, bezel bent, crystal cracked, open it up...original butterfly rotor...the rotor axle has been SILVER SOLDERED ON TO THE WEIGHT...because the last guy obviously didn't have the proper stake to set a new axle. Well he set that one...it's permanent...if you try to remove it you'll probably destroy the rotor...so...it is what it is.
Upper and lower rotor jewels broken.

The hairspring was 9 degrees out of beat. The stud was so far out of adjustment that the coils of the hairspring were touching on the stud side...and you could drive a truck through them on the other side. Just for starters...

The watch is pretty cool really. Original dial 1959. I've got it running chronometer specs for its era 6 positions and it's not even a chrono grade movement. It all works pretty well now.

But it didn't just happen. It took a lot of work.

So even on 15xx series movements like used in the Air King, balances are often way out of beat and hairspring is out of center....and you wonder if the last guy even knew the difference? It's very often more than just "routine" tear down, inspect, clean, reassemble and lubricate. Hairspring work is tricky. Every calibre has a different placement of the stud...curve of the overcoil. If you don't know ROLEX then you don't KNOW how it's supposed to be. Granted it's a it intuitive and a good watchmaker familiar with other brands could see it and figure it out.



And let's throw around that old....my Rolex has never been serviced and it keeps perfect time and it's 40 years old myth too.

You know I'm sure that anything can be fixed with the right equipment and the access to parts new or used, in the case of parts that don't exist any longer, and the skills to complete the job. Some guys are definitely very skilled and can do anything and some of us can do a great deal but not everything. I make no claims.

Luckily most Rolex are pretty robust and if some monkey hasn't made too much of a mess in there you can usually get the thing to run pretty well without too much effort if you know what you're doing. They are very resilient and you're not likely to need a lot of parts. Certain calibres have certain weak points that show up more often. Most guys that do Rolex primarily are aware of those.

But if you let your watch run dry...oh yeah... I know the oils are so much better now...well....yeah...they are better than 1940.. but there isn't a lot of difference between the basic oils that are used now and the ones that were used 30 years ago.

In most parts of an 18000 bph watch your gonna be using the same lubricants you used in 1980. They dry out....and yes your watch is running...but it's like running your crank shaft in your car with no oil. The newer the calibre the better the tolerances and the higher the propensity to continue to function despite lack of maintenance is there. The 1570 is darned near bullet proof BUT....

The center wheel hole in the mainplate of Rolex is NOT jeweled. If it runs dry, the pressure from the mainspring...which will also be greater if IT lacks proper lubrication because it will wind up tighter without clutching...is gonna wear a NICE oblong hole in your mainplate. The center wheel post is steel the plate is brass. Which is gonna go first? Same situation on the bushed holes of the barrel bridge and on the mainplate for the mspg barrel.

I'm dealing with a 1030 with that center hole situation right now. This one is so bad I'm going to have to jewel it.

But back to the 100.00 service. Sure...if he has nothing but time on his hands and loves to work on watches....he could do it for you for free even maybe, and that is certainly his prerogative.

I've had guys tell me that you shouldn't charge more than 100.00 to service a bubbleback. It's like REALLY? Vraiment?

I should charge triple to do a bubbleback over what I do for a Datejust...because I could do 3 Datejusts in the time it takes to do one bubbleback. A guy told me he could tear one down and put it back together in an hour...it's like...well sure if you were running a race but would it run and keep time? His reply was .... those watches never keep time anyway.

Mine do.

Okay then we have the REST of the service. Polishing of the case lightly if that is desired. (oh god I know let's not go there)

CLEANING your DNA out of the case and bracelet so we can work on it without being completely creeped out.

Polishing or replacing the crystal. This stuff all takes time. Especially sports models.

Fitting up a new crown tube if necessary. Sometimes you have to clean up the threads in the case with a tap after your remove the old tube. Sometimes they break off when they come out. The bits have to be removed and then a tap run down through. How long does that take? It's all time.

So then you need to put gaskets in and water test the case prior to casing the movement so you don't inadvertently wreck the wonderful original dial if something is awry?

Aligning the hands so that a. the calendar changes within specs. It's a bit trial and error. It's also touchy work because everytime the hands go on or off it's risky. b. so they don't touch each other...as they cross.

Then you have to inspect the dial and hands for debris and carefully make sure that it is all gone. Then the same for the underside of the crystal. You have no idea how long it takes on some watches...gloss black dials...shoot me.

Then you case it. Then you need to check the timing. Newer watches are much more friendly...but on an old watch like a bubbleback...

Okay on those...the rotor cover completely covers the regulator...so in order to change the timing you have to remove the rotor entirely. The problem is....every single move on one of those watches can often affect the timing. You can have the watch doing one thing on the movement holder...and you case it...and the timing is completely different. Then you put the rotor on and it's different again. Then you screw the back on and it's different again. So how many moves do I have to make, and how often, to get the watch to time right? It's a lot of hunt and peck...and it's very time consuming. Then you get it all timed beautifully and uh oh...the second hand skips...because there isn't enough tension on the sweep second spring...off comes the rotor mech again....and we start the entire process over, because when you add pressure to the sweep pinion spring the amplitude changes and there goes your timing.

I could go on and on. It all sounds real simple until you do it.

Then you have to water test again.

Backing up...on a bubbleback case the crystal is compression fit. The old crowns had lead gaskets that don't seal now. I may have to try 5 identical crystals to get a seal at the rehaut....how many hours are we in now? In order to put a rubber gasket in the crown you have to dig the old lead one out with a old pair of strong tweezers...how long does that take? Sometimes they come right out...sometimes you can spend the better part of an hour. How many times did I stab myself in the fingers as the tweezer slipped out of the crown? Now...

How much have I invested in my equipment? Loupes, lamps, staking sets, jeweling tools, timing machines, cleaning machines....on and on...

Replacement screwdriver blades are 1.20 a piece. I've got 2 sets of 10 screwdrivers.

And how much do cleaning fluids and oils cost? And electricity and driving to the post office or fedex and back to send your watch off.

How much did most of the guys you speak of here spend to go to watchmaking school?.....

$100.00?....To service your Rolex?

I'm gonna play drums in a nightclub tomorrow night for an hour and make $100.00

Like I said he works out of his house so he doesn't have most of the store front expenses. Driving to the post office? That is beyond silly have USPS pick up the packages from your front door or business. It is free.. Also, I hope you use a scale and printer for postage. You save money and time.

Oh and he said he would do a Tissot for 70 bucks. So I don't know what insane prices you are charging where it is cheaper for me to replace a 300 dollar watch than have you service it.

[Floorguy]

Personally, I like piece of mind! I spend the money and use riki! Jmo!
Good luck!

[andromeda160]

Originally Posted by GinNtonic

Like I said he works out of his house so he doesn't have most of the store front expenses. Driving to the post office? That is beyond silly have USPS pick up the packages from your front door or business. It is free.. Also, I hope you use a scale and printer for postage. You save money and time.

Oh and he said he would do a Tissot for 70 bucks. So I don't know what insane prices you are charging where it is cheaper for me to replace a 300 dollar watch than have you service it.

Maybe get the tissot done first then, if he can fix a tissot, chances are he'll do fine on your rolex. Yes I understand people want their watches done right, but I don't think anyone looked past the price on this one, his website said service for rolexes starts @ $200, have you called him yet? I'm sure talking to him could help ease your mind or steer you clear of his service.

[dysondiver]

rwt ... best post ive read in a long time. many thanks.

[Jason71]

Originally Posted by GinNtonic

Like I said he works out of his house so he doesn't have most of the store front expenses. Driving to the post office? That is beyond silly have USPS pick up the packages from your front door or business. It is free.. Also, I hope you use a scale and printer for postage. You save money and time.

Oh and he said he would do a Tissot for 70 bucks. So I don't know what insane prices you are charging where it is cheaper for me to replace a 300 dollar watch than have you service it.

I believe it is your prerogative to use whomever you choose to service your watch. However, there is no reason for you to question or attempt to educate a watchmaker on his business practices, charging schedule, or on his/her opinion. A watchmaker is entitled to charge what they like, ship with whatever entity they choose to use as their courier, and operate their business as they see fit. Their reputation and work performed is the key to repeat business and generating new business. There is a reason why Bob Ridley gets some of the most valuable vintage Rolex for service.

Personally, I don't want USPS picking up my watch from a watchmaker's place of business. IMHO, USPS is not the best shipping entity for expensive (greater than $5,000) shipments, and I don't want the courier seeing the business front. Theft during transport is just too much of a risk. If you want to have your DRSD serviced by a watchmaker that charges $100 and arranges for pickup by USPS.....by all means.....knock yourself out and let us know how it goes

[springer]

Originally Posted by Jason71

I believe it is your prerogative to use whomever you choose to service your watch. However, there is no reason for you to question or attempt to educate a watchmaker on his business practices, charging schedule, or on his/her opinion. A watchmaker is entitled to charge what they like, ship with whatever entity they choose to use as their courier, and operate their business as they see fit. Their reputation and work performed is the key to repeat business and generating new business. There is a reason why Bob Ridley gets some of the most valuable vintage Rolex for service.

Personally, I don't want USPS picking up my watch from a watchmaker's place of business. IMHO, USPS is not the best shipping entity for expensive (greater than $5,000) shipments, and I don't want the courier seeing the business front. Theft during transport is just too much of a risk. If you want to have your DRSD serviced by a watchmaker that charges $100 and arranges for pickup by USPS.....by all means.....knock yourself out and let us know how it goes

And another perspective regarding the USPS....

Registered insured shipping by the US Postal Service is considered the most secure method for shipping anything of value. Although I am not sure of the value limits, it is the method of shipping recommended by the Rolex Service Center. I have shipped every watch that I have sold the past 10 years via the USPS without issue. While I'm sure some have had issues with the USPS, the same can be said for any shipping service.

[CrownMe]

Originally Posted by springer

And another perspective regarding the USPS....

Registered insured shipping by the US Postal Service is considered the most secure method for shipping anything of value. Although I am not sure of the value limits, it is the method of shipping recommended by the Rolex Service Center. I have shipped every watch that I have sold the past 10 years via the USPS without issue. While I'm sure some have had issues with the USPS, the same can be said for any shipping service.

I have had zero issues with usps. The problems I have heard about in the past is trying to get the insurance money from them if the watch is lost. I can't speak from experience only on what I have heard so I can not confirm it.

[greekbum]

US registered mail lost a watch I shipped and would not pay the claim. Has any body been payed from a claim to them if lost? I know a few who have not.

[grew]

R.W.T. Love the soapbox. Good read.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by grew

R.W.T. Love the soapbox. Good read.

I agree!

[Jason71]

Originally Posted by springer

And another perspective regarding the USPS....

Registered insured shipping by the US Postal Service is considered the most secure method for shipping anything of value. Although I am not sure of the value limits, it is the method of shipping recommended by the Rolex Service Center. I have shipped every watch that I have sold the past 10 years via the USPS without issue. While I'm sure some have had issues with the USPS, the same can be said for any shipping service.

And while I do not necessarily disagree with you John........

All 3 of the main USA are fraught with danger of loss while shipping a valuable item. I'm sure I have shipped way fewer watches over the years than someone in the business as long as you. My philosophy has changed over the last year due to a loss with the USPS. The loss was for a $300 Doxa case. It was shipped via the USPS and fully insured. USPS ultimately paid the claim, but the vintage watch case has disappeared forever. When shipped via USPS, the cost of shipping / insurance is written plainly on the package. It doesn't take much knowledge to determine the value insured. Sticky fingers and a creative person could lift nearly any package from any of the shipping entities.

In my mind --- overnight shipping, good tracking, blending-in with the other packages, and 3rd party insurance (parcel pro)......these are the best ways to prevent loss.

JMHO

(Sorry to get off-topic)

[CaveDiver]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

Soapbox.


$100.00?....To service your Rolex?

I'm gonna play drums in a nightclub tomorrow night for an hour and make $100.00

Tommy, I suspect with your resume you would have no problem making more playing drums than cleaning watches. I figured you do it because of the passion you have for Rolex watches.

Now, how about doing 10 bubble backs for Istanbul Ride Cymbal

[soundserious]

What watch are we talking about?

[GinNtonic]

Originally Posted by viknijjar

What watch are we talking about?

Just a 1970 6694

[R.W.T.]

I'm sorry I was being a little testy :-)

Many of you guys over here don't really know me. I'm not a regular on this forum.

I'm a guy just like you all...who got interested in old Rolex about 30 years ago. My dad bought a 3065 hooded bubbleback new in 1948.

I always admired it and so I asked a friend to help ME find a Rolex in around 1984-85.

He had always worn a submariner since he was in HS in the 60's and did a lot of pawnshopping.

I'm a professional musician by trade. All of my wealthier bandmates and management and the like bought Rolex in the early 80's when we toured Japan and the rest of the far east.

But they didn't look like my dad's. I always fancied his because it was odd looking.



I bought one that was similar vintage from a local pawn guy. Rolex restored it for me in the early 80's and I have since also done it myself again.



Immediately after we paid the man for the watch my friend said we now have to go to see someone else.

He took me to the local Rolex dealer at the mall and introduced me to a man who would over the next 30 years become like second father to me.

He was the Certified Rolex Watchmaker on premise there. Now...my friend was a VERY rock and roll looking character....picture a cross between Elvis and Gino Vanelli.

We walked in the store and my friend asked to see his friend and the counter lady said he is busy but I will tell him you are here. Very shortly a very nicely dressed man in his early 60's came out and greeted my friend like they were family.

He looked at my new old watch and took it back into his office and opened it and came back and reported that everything was legit and that it looked to be in fine shape. I was astounded he even knew what it was. He assured me that he had worked on these when they were new and that he still saw them from time to time and often serviced them. This was like a miracle...because every watchmaker in town had botched my father's watch and it had sat idol in a drawer for over a decade. I asked ...YOU FIX THESE?...he said sure all the time. :-) I couldn't wait to tell my dad.

He was very reluctant because everyone had just made his watch worse....but I knew this would be different. Now it did take about 6 months and it was persnickety...but when it was all said and done...my dad had the only material thing I ever saw him care about...back on his wrist working properly...until he passed. Sadly it was on the watchmaker's bench for service when he did finally demise...but for the better part of the remainder of his life he had his prized Rolex...working...which I inherited with all of the original papers and guarantee and books etc.

As my interest grew in Rolex I began spending a lot of time at his shop that he had in a room at his family home. He and his wife welcomed me like I was family. I was welcome there anytime. I would sit for hours while he worked on Rolex. He would open watches and say this is the reported problem...and this is what is wrong and why it is doing so and so.

Then later he would get a watch in for service and say it's doing so and so and I would tell him what was wrong based on what he had showed me in the past. I got pretty good....then he offered to teach me. I'm not a morning person...I'm a musician and I was still in the latter stages of the belief in a childhood dream. I turned down the offer.

Probably the biggest mistake I ever made. :-)

Later on as my career had a few major hiccups...I asked him if he would...and he said no...I'm not going to teach anyone now...I'm older and don't have the time really.

I asked several times but the answer was always the same.

I had no idea what I had turned down. This man was on a first name basis with George Daniels and Henry Fried....

So it came to pass that I would have many watches...projects in various states of repair and he would fix them for me....I always stayed in touch and went to visit them.

He would let me stand right behind him...while he worked. He could work with my head right next to his and never flinch. It never bothered him like it would many people.

I had a pretty good background from just being around him and I have a very good audio memory. I remember what I hear. It comes from music...and time keeping...and it's all the same really.

So it came to pass that in 2008 his wife of some 60 years and my father both passed away within months of each other. His health was also not fabulous and he was also now by himself...and of course what a loss.

He said...why don't you come up in the mornings....I'll show you how to do this. I can't start you from scratch and go all the way up...but we can get you going and you can learn how to at least fix your own watches and then we see how much further it goes.

So, in Jan. 2009, I did that. I started getting up very early and driving the 35 miles to his house everyday...and I learned how to service Rolex. I started right in on Rolex...I never serviced anything BUT Rolex...I didn't start with a pocket watch I started with my own Rolex. I bought a lot of movements and watches in the first few years and I made a LOT of mistakes...you Learn from that...what you can never learn in schools...and we're talking watches you can't buy parts for. Even when he still had his account and I could buy anything I wanted...you can't buy a balance wheel for a bubbleback...they don't have those.

So I've serviced a lot of watches, many of my own and watches I have bought to restore and sell and a few for other folks. I started very slow. I'm not interested in doing a lot of quantity.

The biggest personal honor I ever had was the day I came to the shop and he handed me a box of his business cards with my name on them....with the title Associate Watchmaker.

As I said before in the other post. I make no claims. Lots of guys have more skills than I do and can do things I may never be able to do. You never stop learning.

One watchmaker I have a lot of respect for who is very very well known....left the business where he was working and is going to watchmaking school in the fall. I was astounded....I thought he was someone who had been through schools and then some. Turns out he learned basically like I did and now wants to go back and learn everything from the ground up and go for certification.


I guess I do a lot of things for the love of doing it. Even at the prices we charge...on the older models...pre 1030...it's not even money...the amount of hours that go into making one of those watches do the best it can depending on the condition it is in....you can't charge for that....you'd be over the value of the watch very often.

But I don't think people realize exactly all that goes into servicing a watch and how time consuming it is to do it right. And the scenario I gave is if everything goes as it should be. Sometimes a watch is so dry and gummy that you do your best to pre clean it and you run it through the cleaning machine and it still runs miserably and you have to do it all over again and then it runs better. Every watch has a different story and a different quotient that is going to identify it. The older the watch the more wiggly that might be.

You're not going to be able to make every single ancient Rolex run to specs for the day it was made...they have seen a lot of use....even if you go beyond cost effective measures..and replace every wheel...you've still got wear and issues that...sure they could be corrected by someone with the time and the skill set...but at what cost and what value. If the watch is worth 1000.00 even if it is a Rolex...and you are going to have to put the hourly equivalent of double that in it ... it's not worth it and that is also why Rolex turns down a lot of vintage pieces...because to bring them back to THEIR standard...it's simply not worth it. This is what the head of consumer service in Geneva told me in 1985.

Like I said without too much trouble if the watch hasn't been completely monkeyed...you can get it to run very well and keep very good time on the wrist by working with what is there and setting it up properly. The later the movement...the better result you are likely to get...because they have less wear...and they were more accurate to start with.

The thing I was trying mostly to express is that....it sounds simple enough....but it's not...it takes a lot of practice and patience and perseverance...knowledge and a motor skill set that everyone isn't going to possess.....and if it were everyone would do it themselves....and therein lies the rub...and the giveaway...because people aren't. There's also a lot of responsibility involved and you know....they are like orphan children sometimes...and less like machines.

I wasn't meaning to be critical of the man who works on Rolex for 100.00 or the gentleman who wants possibly to have him do it either.

Moreover, I was trying to show that in our economy with what everything else costs today, the price that you pay a competent watch repair person to service a high end watch like a Rolex is not...let's put it this way...no one's retiring on a yacht in the Bahamas here...and there's a lot more to it than what you might think on the surface. Also I wanted to draw the attention the fact that when you hand someone x amount of dollars for servicing your watch...it doesn't go straight into his pocket...there are lots of things that he or she has to pay for...that don't necessarily come to mind.

As to the question on servicing something else...it's true...I had good friend....he has a fake Rolex okay. It has the same ETA that everything else has in it. I nursed it along for a bit. Then it finally stopped and he asked me if I could fix it and I just said..it's not really worth fixing. It's a nice ETA with a nice fake case and dial and hands and bracelet and it's well made...but it takes JUST as much time to do that as it does a Rolex. It's simply not worth fixing. You can buy the movement for less than it costs to overhaul the one that's in it.

The best thing is really I think, when you have a watch of a certain age....since we are all into vintage watches (I have modern Rolex as well) a watch where you are concerned about keeping things like you like them....and or watches that are getting beyond the limits of what RSC will take on....then maybe find a good competent person that you can develop a rapport with. I know some of the better known "go to" guys that do vintage Rolex and they are great.

Very often a friend with a modern piece will come to me with it and I say hey...send that one to the Service Center...everything is current on it anyway and you can't beat their price comparatively. They want it to look just like it did the day they bought it...you get a great warranty.

My dear friend the watchmaker turns 90 years old on Thursday. He has 77 years at the bench and he will be working on a Rolex I would bet tomorrow when I go to the shop.

All the best,

T

[nickb732]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

I'm sorry I was being a little testy :-)

Many of you guys over here don't really know me. I'm not a regular on this forum.

I'm a guy just like you all...who got interested in old Rolex about 30 years ago. My dad bought a 3065 hooded bubbleback new in 1948.

I always admired it and so I asked a friend to help ME find a Rolex in around 1984-85.

He had always worn a submariner since he was in HS in the 60's and did a lot of pawnshopping.

I'm a professional musician by trade. All of my wealthier bandmates and management and the like bought Rolex in the early 80's when we toured Japan and the rest of the far east.

But they didn't look like my dad's. I always fancied his because it was odd looking.



I bought one that was similar vintage from a local pawn guy. Rolex restored it for me in the early 80's and I have since also done it myself again.



Immediately after we paid the man for the watch my friend said we now have to go to see someone else.

He took me to the local Rolex dealer at the mall and introduced me to a man who would over the next 30 years become like second father to me.

He was the Certified Rolex Watchmaker on premise there. Now...my friend was a VERY rock and roll looking character....picture a cross between Elvis and Gino Vanelli.

We walked in the store and my friend asked to see his friend and the counter lady said he is busy but I will tell him you are here. Very shortly a very nicely dressed man in his early 60's came out and greeted my friend like they were family.

He looked at my new old watch and took it back into his office and opened it and came back and reported that everything was legit and that it looked to be in fine shape. I was astounded he even knew what it was. He assured me that he had worked on these when they were new and that he still saw them from time to time and often serviced them. This was like a miracle...because every watchmaker in town had botched my father's watch and it had sat idol in a drawer for over a decade. I asked ...YOU FIX THESE?...he said sure all the time. :-) I couldn't wait to tell my dad.

He was very reluctant because everyone had just made his watch worse....but I knew this would be different. Now it did take about 6 months and it was persnickety...but when it was all said and done...my dad had the only material thing I ever saw him care about...back on his wrist working properly...until he passed. Sadly it was on the watchmaker's bench for service when he did finally demise...but for the better part of the remainder of his life he had his prized Rolex...working...which I inherited with all of the original papers and guarantee and books etc.

As my interest grew in Rolex I began spending a lot of time at his shop that he had in a room at his family home. He and his wife welcomed me like I was family. I was welcome there anytime. I would sit for hours while he worked on Rolex. He would open watches and say this is the reported problem...and this is what is wrong and why it is doing so and so.

Then later he would get a watch in for service and say it's doing so and so and I would tell him what was wrong based on what he had showed me in the past. I got pretty good....then he offered to teach me. I'm not a morning person...I'm a musician and I was still in the latter stages of the belief in a childhood dream. I turned down the offer.

Probably the biggest mistake I ever made. :-)

Later on as my career had a few major hiccups...I asked him if he would...and he said no...I'm not going to teach anyone now...I'm older and don't have the time really.

I asked several times but the answer was always the same.

I had no idea what I had turned down. This man was on a first name basis with George Daniels and Henry Fried....

So it came to pass that I would have many watches...projects in various states of repair and he would fix them for me....I always stayed in touch and went to visit them.

He would let me stand right behind him...while he worked. He could work with my head right next to his and never flinch. It never bothered him like it would many people.

I had a pretty good background from just being around him and I have a very good audio memory. I remember what I hear. It comes from music...and time keeping...and it's all the same really.

So it came to pass that in 2008 his wife of some 60 years and my father both passed away within months of each other. His health was also not fabulous and he was also now by himself...and of course what a loss.

He said...why don't you come up in the mornings....I'll show you how to do this. I can't start you from scratch and go all the way up...but we can get you going and you can learn how to at least fix your own watches and then we see how much further it goes.

So, in Jan. 2009, I did that. I started getting up very early and driving the 35 miles to his house everyday...and I learned how to service Rolex. I started right in on Rolex...I never serviced anything BUT Rolex...I didn't start with a pocket watch I started with my own Rolex. I bought a lot of movements and watches in the first few years and I made a LOT of mistakes...you Learn from that...what you can never learn in schools...and we're talking watches you can't buy parts for. Even when he still had his account and I could buy anything I wanted...you can't buy a balance wheel for a bubbleback...they don't have those.

So I've serviced a lot of watches, many of my own and watches I have bought to restore and sell and a few for other folks. I started very slow. I'm not interested in doing a lot of quantity.

The biggest personal honor I ever had was the day I came to the shop and he handed me a box of his business cards with my name on them....with the title Associate Watchmaker.

As I said before in the other post. I make no claims. Lots of guys have more skills than I do and can do things I may never be able to do. You never stop learning.

One watchmaker I have a lot of respect for who is very very well known....left the business where he was working and is going to watchmaking school in the fall. I was astounded....I thought he was someone who had been through schools and then some. Turns out he learned basically like I did and now wants to go back and learn everything from the ground up and go for certification.


I guess I do a lot of things for the love of doing it. Even at the prices we charge...on the older models...pre 1030...it's not even money...the amount of hours that go into making one of those watches do the best it can depending on the condition it is in....you can't charge for that....you'd be over the value of the watch very often.

But I don't think people realize exactly all that goes into servicing a watch and how time consuming it is to do it right. And the scenario I gave is if everything goes as it should be. Sometimes a watch is so dry and gummy that you do your best to pre clean it and you run it through the cleaning machine and it still runs miserably and you have to do it all over again and then it runs better. Every watch has a different story and a different quotient that is going to identify it. The older the watch the more wiggly that might be.

You're not going to be able to make every single ancient Rolex run to specs for the day it was made...they have seen a lot of use....even if you go beyond cost effective measures..and replace every wheel...you've still got wear and issues that...sure they could be corrected by someone with the time and the skill set...but at what cost and what value. If the watch is worth 1000.00 even if it is a Rolex...and you are going to have to put the hourly equivalent of double that in it ... it's not worth it and that is also why Rolex turns down a lot of vintage pieces...because to bring them back to THEIR standard...it's simply not worth it. This is what the head of consumer service in Geneva told me in 1985.

Like I said without too much trouble if the watch hasn't been completely monkeyed...you can get it to run very well and keep very good time on the wrist by working with what is there and setting it up properly. The later the movement...the better result you are likely to get...because they have less wear...and they were more accurate to start with.

The thing I was trying mostly to express is that....it sounds simple enough....but it's not...it takes a lot of practice and patience and perseverance...knowledge and a motor skill set that everyone isn't going to possess.....and if it were everyone would do it themselves....and therein lies the rub...and the giveaway...because people aren't. There's also a lot of responsibility involved and you know....they are like orphan children sometimes...and less like machines.

I wasn't meaning to be critical of the man who works on Rolex for 100.00 or the gentleman who wants possibly to have him do it either.

Moreover, I was trying to show that in our economy with what everything else costs today, the price that you pay a competent watch repair person to service a high end watch like a Rolex is not...let's put it this way...no one's retiring on a yacht in the Bahamas here...and there's a lot more to it than what you might think on the surface. Also I wanted to draw the attention the fact that when you hand someone x amount of dollars for servicing your watch...it doesn't go straight into his pocket...there are lots of things that he or she has to pay for...that don't necessarily come to mind.

As to the question on servicing something else...it's true...I had good friend....he has a fake Rolex okay. It has the same ETA that everything else has in it. I nursed it along for a bit. Then it finally stopped and he asked me if I could fix it and I just said..it's not really worth fixing. It's a nice ETA with a nice fake case and dial and hands and bracelet and it's well made...but it takes JUST as much time to do that as it does a Rolex. It's simply not worth fixing. You can buy the movement for less than it costs to overhaul the one that's in it.

The best thing is really I think, when you have a watch of a certain age....since we are all into vintage watches (I have modern Rolex as well) a watch where you are concerned about keeping things like you like them....and or watches that are getting beyond the limits of what RSC will take on....then maybe find a good competent person that you can develop a rapport with. I know some of the better known "go to" guys that do vintage Rolex and they are great.

Very often a friend with a modern piece will come to me with it and I say hey...send that one to the Service Center...everything is current on it anyway and you can't beat their price comparatively. They want it to look just like it did the day they bought it...you get a great warranty.

My dear friend the watchmaker turns 90 years old on Thursday. He has 77 years at the bench and he will be working on a Rolex I would bet tomorrow when I go to the shop.

All the best,

T

Wow. That is an amazing, astounding story. You sound like you have a lot of experiences to share with us. Please stop by more often. I don't usually read long posts but that was just spellbinding.

[greekbum]

Just figured out what RWT stands for... Tommy is a wealth of knowledge and we should all be glad he's on TRF!

[Jason71]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

My dear friend the watchmaker turns 90 years old on Thursday. He has 77 years at the bench and he will be working on a Rolex I would bet tomorrow when I go to the shop.

All the best,

T

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your two posts. Thank you for taking the time to share them

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Jason71

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your two posts. Thank you for taking the time to share them

X2 RWT, That was great. Please, post more, I would enjoy reading them!

[R.W.T.]

I am humbled...I was just trying to explain things...but I have been also told by many that I should be a writer. Even my genius HS English teacher told me I could be a writer...I thought surely he was daft, as I couldn't even diagram a sentence, much less make an outline.

Somehow....my use of the written word has improved I guess.

Thanks for being entertained. I'm happy to write about something I am impassioned about.

Today...

I worked on the 1065 (1030) that I spoke of 2 evenings ago.

I had jeweled it but I wasn't happy with the result.

Because of the elongation of the center hole in the main plate due to lack of lubrication and wear over time, using the reamer set up on the Seitz tool proved to be a bit inaccurate.

The jewel was actually a bit of center. This is not good.

Luckily the jewel I had used had a very small OD and there is plenty of room left on the plate to have another go.

So today we learned a new skill. It's not remarkable really but it was satisfying :-).

I stripped the main plate down completely and then placed it in a bezel chuck. This is multi jawed affair that captures a round object and holds it centered and can be loaded into the lathe. Then, after selecting a slightly larger OD jewel that actually was a better fit on the center wheel, I got one of the reamer bits and put it in the center slide attachment. This basically holds the reamer like a stationary drill bit, and you can sort of, for lack of a better description.....launch it slowly toward the hole which is now perfectly centered and rotating in the bezel chuck.

There may be other methods but this proved very satisfactory.

Once I created the new opening, I went back with a carbide graver and cut away the excess material left on either side of the plate that formed in a circle around the hole from the cutting.

Once this was done and clean, I set the newly selected jewel in place with the Seitz tool and voile' all is well. I reassembled the train and inspected it and now the center wheel is properly upright and not leaning and it is all functioning far better than it ever would've had I simply left the worn plate as it was.

Neat stuff! Fun!

Jeweling is really cool!

My friend told me once of a watchmaker he knew that took an old Timex, which has no jewels and jeweled the entire thing...and dressed all of the pivots and wheels to make it run in a superior fashion just because he could.


:-)

This was good practice as I have to repeat the process on a much more expensive piece owned by the same guy that is also a 10xx movement that suffers the same ills though not to the same extent.

This however is a 1066B day date...which due the nature of the calendar mechanism....can't suffer any slop in the center wheel. It really messes things up.

Hopefully it comes along just fine as well. But you see the wear on this one was typical and not so bad. The watch movement is completely assembled and it is giving trouble. It has to be done completely over.

I didn't catch it when I was assembling the watch the first time.

You can bet every 1030 is gonna get serious scrutiny at the center from now on!

T

[nickb732]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

I am humbled...I was just trying to explain things...but I have been also told by many that I should be a writer. Even my genius HS English teacher told me I could be a writer...I thought surely he was daft, as I couldn't even diagram a sentence, much less make an outline.

Somehow....my use of the written word has improved I guess.

Thanks for being entertained. I'm happy to write about something I am impassioned about.

Today...

I worked on the 1065 (1030) that I spoke of 2 evenings ago.

I had jeweled it but I wasn't happy with the result.

Because of the elongation of the center hole in the main plate due to lack of lubrication and wear over time, using the reamer set up on the Seitz tool proved to be a bit inaccurate.

The jewel was actually a bit of center. This is not good.

Luckily the jewel I had used had a very small OD and there is plenty of room left on the plate to have another go.

So today we learned a new skill. It's not remarkable really but it was satisfying :-).

I stripped the main plate down completely and then placed it in a bezel chuck. This is multi jawed affair that captures a round object and holds it centered and can be loaded into the lathe. Then, after selecting a slightly larger OD jewel that actually was a better fit on the center wheel, I got one of the reamer bits and put it in the center slide attachment. This basically holds the reamer like a stationary drill bit, and you can sort of, for lack of a better description.....launch it slowly toward the hole which is now perfectly centered and rotating in the bezel chuck.

There may be other methods but this proved very satisfactory.

Once I created the new opening, I went back with a carbide graver and cut away the excess material left on either side of the plate that formed in a circle around the hole from the cutting.

Once this was done and clean, I set the newly selected jewel in place with the Seitz tool and voile' all is well. I reassembled the train and inspected it and now the center wheel is properly upright and not leaning and it is all functioning far better than it ever would've had I simply left the worn plate as it was.

Neat stuff! Fun!

Jeweling is really cool!

My friend told me once of a watchmaker he knew that took an old Timex, which has no jewels and jeweled the entire thing...and dressed all of the pivots and wheels to make it run in a superior fashion just because he could.


:-)

This was good practice as I have to repeat the process on a much more expensive piece owned by the same guy that is also a 10xx movement that suffers the same ills though not to the same extent.

This however is a 1066B day date...which due the nature of the calendar mechanism....can't suffer any slop in the center wheel. It really messes things up.

Hopefully it comes along just fine as well. But you see the wear on this one was typical and not so bad. The watch movement is completely assembled and it is giving trouble. It has to be done completely over.

I didn't catch it when I was assembling the watch the first time.

You can bet every 1030 is gonna get serious scrutiny at the center from now on!

T

You should start a new thread and post some pictures!

[Jason71]

Originally Posted by nickb732

You should start a new thread and post some pictures!

X 2

I think many of us would enjoy that.

[jmiicustomz]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

I am humbled...I was just trying to explain things...but I have been also told by many that I should be a writer. Even my genius HS English teacher told me I could be a writer...I thought surely he was daft, as I couldn't even diagram a sentence, much less make an outline.

Somehow....my use of the written word has improved I guess.

Thanks for being entertained. I'm happy to write about something I am impassioned about.

Today...

I worked on the 1065 (1030) that I spoke of 2 evenings ago.

I had jeweled it but I wasn't happy with the result.

Because of the elongation of the center hole in the main plate due to lack of lubrication and wear over time, using the reamer set up on the Seitz tool proved to be a bit inaccurate.

The jewel was actually a bit of center. This is not good.

Luckily the jewel I had used had a very small OD and there is plenty of room left on the plate to have another go.

So today we learned a new skill. It's not remarkable really but it was satisfying :-).

I stripped the main plate down completely and then placed it in a bezel chuck. This is multi jawed affair that captures a round object and holds it centered and can be loaded into the lathe. Then, after selecting a slightly larger OD jewel that actually was a better fit on the center wheel, I got one of the reamer bits and put it in the center slide attachment. This basically holds the reamer like a stationary drill bit, and you can sort of, for lack of a better description.....launch it slowly toward the hole which is now perfectly centered and rotating in the bezel chuck.

There may be other methods but this proved very satisfactory.

Once I created the new opening, I went back with a carbide graver and cut away the excess material left on either side of the plate that formed in a circle around the hole from the cutting.

Once this was done and clean, I set the newly selected jewel in place with the Seitz tool and voile' all is well. I reassembled the train and inspected it and now the center wheel is properly upright and not leaning and it is all functioning far better than it ever would've had I simply left the worn plate as it was.

Neat stuff! Fun!

Jeweling is really cool!

My friend told me once of a watchmaker he knew that took an old Timex, which has no jewels and jeweled the entire thing...and dressed all of the pivots and wheels to make it run in a superior fashion just because he could.


:-)

This was good practice as I have to repeat the process on a much more expensive piece owned by the same guy that is also a 10xx movement that suffers the same ills though not to the same extent.

This however is a 1066B day date...which due the nature of the calendar mechanism....can't suffer any slop in the center wheel. It really messes things up.

Hopefully it comes along just fine as well. But you see the wear on this one was typical and not so bad. The watch movement is completely assembled and it is giving trouble. It has to be done completely over.

I didn't catch it when I was assembling the watch the first time.

You can bet every 1030 is gonna get serious scrutiny at the center from now on!

T

I have really enjoyed reading the last few posts on this thread!!!

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by nickb732

You should start a new thread and post some pictures!

I agree! I have really enjoyed your thoughts and the workings of a master on what to most of us are the "Mysteries of Watchmaking".

I would enjoy your commentary on the watches you choose and pictures if you have the time.

[R.W.T.]

" post some pictures!"

I always think of that after the fact. :-/

It's hard to show what I did once it's back together. :-/

I thought about it yesterday that it would be interesting to show.

I didn't have my camera with me. I'll try to remember.

[waQstar]

Amazing read.. I'm subscribed!

[mjclark32]

Originally Posted by Frosty

X2 RWT, That was great. Please, post more, I would enjoy reading them!

X2

[Mark020]

Originally Posted by greekbum

Tommy is a wealth of knowledge and we should all be glad he's on TRF!

Tommy is a hero.

[Neunundneunzig]

Very infomative thread!

[QueueCumber]

It's totally cool. I let this guy service my watch for $100....



Except, he holds onto the watch for a year. I guess he is more backed up than your guy...