What do you think? DJII + exp2 for AP diver

[improviz]

Originally Posted by DreambreaX

stick to rolex.

Gasp....I'm.....I'm simply *shocked* that you of all people would say that!

[dalip]

Originally Posted by texex91

Agree Dalip...always have at least one Rolex SS, then everything else is fair game Hope you guys have/had fun at London GTG!

Yep

& thanks Paul - I am sure we will

Originally Posted by psv

I was going to say no, but since you have other Rolex watches as well - why not?

Good to see you Patrick...

[RXAPPP]

I wouldn't give up to for one and I would never give up the Exp2 full stop. You need a SS Rolex Sports in every collection

[bayerische]

I'd probably do it, but then I'm not a DJ fan, nor am I a fan of the New Explorer2.

[diver2012]

Originally Posted by DreambreaX

stick to rolex.

ROLEX ROLEX ROLEX ROLEX

[texex91]

Originally Posted by diver2012

ROLEX ROLEX ROLEX ROLEX

Don't forget to show Hublot a little love too

[AK797]

Absolutely! I would do it even for a loss.

[SMD]

Originally Posted by PADI_Diver

I think you would kind of be getting screwed in that deal, your dj ii I thinks is worth at least 9k and your explorer is at least 6.5k so 14.5k at the minimum but I could easily see you sell them for a total of 17k. A new diver on the grey market would be about 25k total.

Can't speak to the tt, but 6500 on a used exp II is going to be tough to get as a trade. Bnib list prices are high 6k. So trade in value will probably have a 5 handle on it.

The ss diver bnib would be low to mid 14. Value wise seems like not a bad trade.

[improviz]

That's list on the prev gen Exp II, new style like OP's lists at $8100.

[SMD]

Originally Posted by improviz

That's list on the prev gen Exp II, new style like OP's lists at $8100.

I understand list at an AD is 8100, but on TRF a used 216750 is listing right now for 5900. Bnib is about 1k more (I bought one last year for less than 7k) so on a trade you will get less than what the used list price. My only point is the deal isn't that bad for a trade.

[myc ritz]

Do it!

[improviz]

Originally Posted by SMD

I understand list at an AD is 8100, but on TRF a used 216750 is listing right now for 5900. Bnib is about 1k more (I bought one last year for less than 7k) so on a trade you will get less than what the used list price. My only point is the deal isn't that bad for a trade.

I agree that it is a good trade and posted my sentiments earlier in thread and also understand trade value vs retail; I thought you meant "list" as in "list price". That one at $5.9K is in Canada and is an outlier, the asking prices I find on watchrecon are normally $6300 plus, so getting near this in trade would be excellent.

As to the DJ II 116333, the examples I find on watch recon are in the upper 8K range. So basically he's getting pretty much full retail on trade for both, again an excellent deal.

[SMD]

Originally Posted by improviz

I agree that it is a good trade and posted my sentiments earlier in thread and also understand trade value vs retail; I thought you meant "list" as in "list price". That one at $5.9K is in Canada and is an outlier, the asking prices I find on watchrecon are normally $6300 plus, so getting near this in trade would be excellent.

As to the DJ II 116333, the examples I find on watch recon are in the upper 8K range. So basically he's getting pretty much full retail on trade for both, again an excellent deal.

Agreed.

[Fleetlord]

It's a fair deal straight up...one of the fairest I've seen in a while on here...

The only brands that a quality ROLEX should be ever traded for are PATEK and AP... so this qualifies...

I would trade the DJ and pay the difference in cash, keeping the EXP2.

Honestly, the DJ is a bit of an overvalued watch because of the WG bezel.

The EXP 2 Polar is Awesome and there is nothing else out there like it. So I would keep that.

So definitely trade the DJ and cash or DJ or another watch (preferably another brand other than ROLEX) and acquire that quality AP Diver...

[improviz]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

The only brands that a quality ROLEX should be ever traded for are PATEK and AP... so this qualifies...

Methinks the Lord's time might be well spent learning more about fine timepieces.

[psv]

Originally Posted by dalip

Good to see you Patrick...

Good to see you, my friend, how are things?

[iLLGT2]

Do it

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by improviz

Methinks the Lord's time might be well spent learning more about fine timepieces.

Lol indeed...

Nah...I know enough to never trade out of a quality ROLEX in exchange for any other brand other than AP or PATEK. Some could argue VC, JLC, or LANGE could be in that group...but I'm not one of them..

Good luck with everything...

[HL65]

Originally Posted by DreambreaX

stick to rolex.

Another incredibly insightful post...Shocker!

[simbal]

Thank you all....

Question - Since I had the 44mm SS Novelty before, would I be disappointed with the "relatively entry level" diver or you guys think the diver is good in it's own right?

[AK797]

Originally Posted by simbal

Thank you all....

Question - Since I had the 44mm SS Novelty before, would I be disappointed with the "relatively entry level" diver or you guys think the diver is good in it's own right?

Diver is my fav SS watch so certainly wouldn't be for me.

[improviz]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

Lol indeed...

Nah...I know enough to never trade out of a quality ROLEX in exchange for any other brand other than AP or PATEK. Some could argue VC, JLC, or LANGE could be in that group...but I'm not one of them.

Oh, really? What exactly is it you "know" that leads you to issue such an authoritative, blanket statement implying that these brands are in any way inferior to Rolex (not "ROLEX", FYI)?

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by improviz

Oh, really? What exactly is it you "know" that leads you to issue such an authoritative, blanket statement implying that these brands are in any way inferior to Rolex (not "ROLEX", FYI)?

It's common knowledge that the only brands that equal or perhaps exceed ROLEX in value retention and universal acceptance are PATEK and AP.

Just look at the majority of watch dealers.... What are they buying or accepting for trades without any hesitation? ROLEX, AP, PATEK.....Why is that?

Trading a quality ROLEX into an AP or PATEK can be a GOOD MOVE...

Trading a quality ROLEX for a Hublot, Breitling, or similar brand? Like flushing money down the toilet.. Not the move you want to make...

Now I'm not saying NOT to purchase other brands....just do so at a discount and never trade a ROLEX for one...

Just my opinion, bud. You can certainly do whatever you want with your collection.

[improviz]

You weren't talking about Hublot or Breitling in your previous post, you were talking about JLC, Lange, and VC. Got some data to back up assertion that these brands don't hold value well compared to Patek or AP or Rolex?

Also, why should value retention be the sole determinant of which watch one should/should not trade a Rolex for, absent all other criterion?

Also, is there some particular reason you write Rolex in all caps? Just curious...

[HL65]

Originally Posted by improviz

You weren't talking about Hublot or Breitling in your previous post, you were talking about JLC, Lange, and VC. Got some data to back up assertion that these brands don't hold value well compared to Patek or AP or Rolex?

Also, why should value retention be the sole determinant of which watch one should/should not trade a Rolex for, absent all other criterion?

Also, is there some particular reason you write Rolex in all caps? Just curious...

I will tell you from my experience as nice as JLC, VC and Lange are they have poor resale. My data is based on my personal experience. Lange to me has amazing quality but if you don't buy right and I mean right you will take a beating. As for JLC--worst resale of any watch I have ever owned and I have owned 3 super examples: RG Master Tourbillon, WG Doumetre QL, and RG Duo QL. Lastly VC: Owned 2 very nice ones- WG and RG Patrimony Bi-retro Cldrs and both had awful resale. So not to question quality on any of them but their resale all awful even if bought right. I found little demand for JLC and VC from any dealers and took beating on them even though I bought them at great prices and well below retail. Nothing like Rolex, Patek and AP all bought right hold value much better IMHO and demand super strong for all 3!

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by improviz

You weren't talking about Hublot or Breitling in your previous post, you were talking about JLC, Lange, and VC. Got some data to back up assertion that these brands don't hold value well compared to Patek or AP or Rolex?

Also, why should value retention be the sole determinant of which watch one should/should not trade a Rolex for, absent all other criterion?

Also, is there some particular reason you write Rolex in all caps? Just curious...

VC Overseas Chrono.

Retail $21,500

Pre-owned LNIB $13,000

That is VC most popular SS watch. No precious metals or diamonds.

Compare that to a ROLEX Daytona...lol Not a pretty picture

Try to get a dealer to buy one from you or take one in trade without getting completely clobbered..

Look at the JLC "Navy SEAL" whatever they are....Good luck with those.

Lange...Beautiful watch in every way...but clearly not as in demand as Patek..

I don't have all day to do the math for you sir, but YOU can just take a quick look at the sales section and you'll see what I mean..


Why value retention? Who wants to purchase or own something that is worthless or not desirable? Doesn't make sense, especially trading something that is valued and in demand like a ROLEX for a softer brand...

Look at the header of this forum. It is written as ROLEX. Same as on the dial of mine. That's why....

Hope all of this helped...

[improviz]

Well, true, but that's true for all of 'em: what you pay for it is difference between purchase price and sales price, so you always want to buy them right. Precious metal in particular takes a huge drubbing on resale compared to SS. My point is that if you look at difference between discounted purchase/resale on some of these brands vs resale, it's not enough of a difference to where I feel that one should reject out of hand. I'm not saying resale isn't *a* criterion, but I don't feel it should be *only* criterion. If it is, shoot, buy an SS Rolex or Patek and call it a day, but then you're missing out on some really great stuff.

Also it is very model dependent. For example, Lange Datograph listed at $65K, could get 20% off without much difficulty so purchase price would be $52K, I see them preowned online at $46K. Even with some haggling there, let's say 42K, not a huge whack in terms of bought/sold for a precious metal watch, pretty comparable to Rolex platty models (exception being the newly released hot items, but that dies out over time and prices fall into alignment). Other models won't do as well, but every brand has its dogs, and since Langes are all precious metal they will suffer more on resale. Plus Lange is more of a WIS brand, so will take more time to resell....

Even in Rolex this is true: compare resale on SS Subs vs Explorer for example, or vs Datejust, or SS vs two tone/solid gold or platinum. SS Daytonas still sell used for a very high percentage of their MSRP, while TT/G Daytonas sell for a much lower percentage. Does this mean that one shouldn't buy TT/G Rolexes? Well, again, if the only criterion is resale: yes. If not: no. There's an emotional element to this, after all, and that's the crux of my point!

[improviz]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

VC Overseas Chrono.

Retail $21,500

Pre-owned LNIB $13,000

Great, but you're comparing MSRP vs resale, not purchase price. They don't sell for full MSRP.

And you're also saying that AP has higher resale. So let's compare chrono vs chrono and look at an ROO Panda (which will probably be my next victim): MSRP is $27K, I see them online LNIB for $18K. That's pretty much inline with what you're seeing on the VC, so why is it you say the VC is a poor trade vs an AP again?

Or let's look at three handers. The VC OS non-chrono has MSRP of $14K and sells preowned LNIB for $9K, $5K difference. The AP 15400 has MSRP of $17K and sells preowned LNIB for $12K, again $5K difference is roughly same for both.

But again, this is looking at MSRP vs purchase price. In reality, the delta will be smaller because you can get them discounted from MSRP by a fair amount, but even with that, yes, newsflash: more expensive watches cost more to own, generally speaking, and also cost more to service. In my view, they're worth that extra expense by virtue of superior fit/finish and more exclusivity, i.e. I don't see someone wearing AP every time I go out, which is nice. Ditto Patek, Lange, etc.

For some people that's worth paying a bit more for. For others, it isn't.

Same argument holds true for cars: Honda sells a lot more cars than Mercedes, are a lot more reliable, and ownership costs are much lower. But, well, I know which one *I* picked.

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

Compare that to a ROLEX Daytona...lol Not a pretty picture

Yes, and same for AP, but in my view the AP and VC offerings are prettier, better-finished watches--and I own an SS Daytona. If you're willing to pay more for that fit and finish, which I am, then you do. If you're not, then you don't.

Again, point is that if you think resale is the sole determinant in purchasing a watch, then there are many watches out there which have lower ownership costs than AP/VC/Patek, and yes, Rolex: buy a Casio for $25 for example and change the battery for $4 every 3-4 years.

Of course, none of us like to do that, so we pick the ones we like that best suit our desires and personal criterion. And I like variety, so one brand is simply not in the cards, and I feel that to dismiss some of the fine brands you listed simply because they depreciate more is being a bit myopic.

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

Why value retention? Who wants to purchase or own something that is worthless or not desirable? Doesn't make sense, especially trading something that is valued and in demand like a ROLEX for a softer brand...

Well, based upon above, the ownership costs of the AP chrono seem to be similar to those of the VC chrono, so your original analysis would seem to be wrong. So enjoy your Rolexes, as I enjoy mine, but also understand that for some of us, it's worth a bit of extra coin for something else.

Lastly, if resale is a big concern and one still wants some variety, there's a very simple solution: one can always just purchase LNIB from a trusted seller and avoid the resale hit altogether!

[yjfang]

I have both the 44mm SS and the Diver now. While I like the 44MM more if had to choose, I am not going to sell the Diver because I believe it provides a nice contrast to the Novelty. What makes the Diver different are the fatter hands, and the texturing from the engine turned dial (in addition to the raised squares) which can be clearly viewed without the chronograph subdials in the way.

In addition, I like the Diver more than the regular 42MM ROOs because I think AP could have done a better job on the chronograph pushers. They look rather pedantic in the context of such a avant guard design. They should have used the hexagonal shape of the crown on all of the pushers for consistency. Or a new design like the flat pushers on the 44mm, which is why I dumped the AP ROO Safari and picked up the Novelty.


Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by simbal

Thank you all....

Question - Since I had the 44mm SS Novelty before, would I be disappointed with the "relatively entry level" diver or you guys think the diver is good in it's own right?

[yjfang]

The gentlemen's discussion above, which is basically the dilemma that most of us WIS face is do we go with what our hearts really desire or do we stick with watches with greater resale value. Finding that balance is something that is different for each of us.

Watch collection is an expensive hobby by most peoples' standards. Some people can only have 1-3 pieces and can't afford to take a big hit when the inevitable comes and want to flip for something else, so they have to limit themselves to certain brands. There is also an appeal that watch collecting can be a hobby in which one doesn't lose equity and could even make a couple of bucks, provided that one bought well. So there is a discipline involved if one values equity retention. There is one exception if you are more in this camp and that is if the piece is going to be a keeper then you don't need to worry about resale.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are people who are so busy making money in their jobs (think of hedge fund managers that are always trading and making billions a year), they could care less about resale value. They are not looking around and waiting to buy only used AP, Rolex, or PP because they provide the best resale value. They value their time doing something even more important and the utility of having possession of the desired piece(s) now so they'll just go out and buy what they want. They probably don't even flip. Just keep what they have and buy more as new pieces come out.

I guess it all comes down to how you view a watch collection, is it an investment (not necessarily increase in value but equity retention) or an expense. And most of us are somewhere in between.

I find myself more in the first camp since I do value how my money is spent. I might spend $20K+ on a preowned AP but I wear $20 Khaki's and $5 t-shirts from Old Navy. I really don't like to take losses on my watches when I eventually flip them so I really do try to buy well. I don't buy new and just wait for a nice pre-owned piece from a well known private party. But every once in a blue moon, if my heart really desires a piece outside of the top 3 or 4 brands, I will make the exception knowing that I am likely to take a hit if I don't end up keeping the piece.