Accuracy and consistency of AP ROO Diver (Ceramic Black)

[benlee]

This thread cause me sufficient alarm to take out my Ceramic Diver pass midnight and stare at it for 5 mins. No, there is no misalignment of the second and minute hand. They line up perfectly when the sec hand pass 12 oclock. Guess I am in the clear. Phew!

To the OP, sorry for your troubles. Should not have happened in the first place. Hope you get a good resolution from AP.

[improviz]

splitz07, correct me if I'm wrong but issue you discussed was not one of absolute accuracy but rather a misalignment of the minutes hand as it made a circle around the dial, i.e. the accuracy wasn't affected but only the position of the minute hand when the seconds hand crossed 12:00, so for example referring back to your pictures:

first picture has seconds hand crossing at 12:00 and minute hand lined up at 9:27;
second picture has seconds hands crossing at 6:00 and minute hand is just a bit past 10:25;

Etc. in other words, the watch itself wasn't losing/gaining time in the manner that arnaud is describing (which is checked by examining the position of the seconds hand, hopefully), but rather the alignment of the hour hand and the minute markers did not *correspond* to the seconds hand in certain positions, a different issue. Correct?

Arnaud, in your case is it that the actual seconds are off, i.e. you have the seconds aligned with a good source in one case but off by 20 seconds in the next? If so this is a different issue, but hour hand alignment in my experience does drift somewhat as hand rotates around the dial (Rolexes as well, per my post above), main thing is: is the *seconds* hand gaining/losing 20 sec or are you talking about alignment of the min hand wrt the seconds crossing 12:00?

[lapince]

Originally Posted by splitz07

Honestly I don't expect the service center to be able to do much. I expect them to throw out some technicality or term and condition that firstly absolves them from having to give me a new watch.

Then they will at best offer to replace the casing and also require me to leave the watch for who knows how long, depriving me the use of the watch again. Alternatively they send it back to Switzerland where they probably have the tools to repair/polish the case. If it's the latter, then I would have lost one polish 'cycle' on a literally brand new purchase and again be without the watch for months.

I will try to get them to put me in touch with management directly to address the issue. Ideally to replace the watch entirely and allowing me to keep using the current one till the replacement is sourced. It's a long shot... But what can I do?

Ceramic can't be fixed or polished as far as I know, I'm no expert but I'm practically sure 100% of this, sorry man...

Originally Posted by benlee

This thread cause me sufficient alarm to take out my Ceramic Diver pass midnight and stare at it for 5 mins. No, there is no misalignment of the second and minute hand. They line up perfectly when the sec hand pass 12 oclock. Guess I am in the clear. Phew!

To the OP, sorry for your troubles. Should not have happened in the first place. Hope you get a good resolution from AP.

Ben, mine also sometimes lines up perfectly, sometimes not, and as I said in a few minutes delay between each time I check, I look and it's fine and 4 minutes later it's 50% off, hope it's not the case for you but you need to check a few times, just looked at mine and I'm 30% off, was fine 5 minutes ago, not cool

[improviz]

Rolex does this too, the exception being the Daytona which I've never caught out of alignment once it's been correctly set. But my Sub, SD, and Explorer all have variations in alignment of hour hand vs seconds hand as hour hand rotates around the dial, can't recall about the GMT. I'll perform a test tonight to see...as I mentioned here when I researched it I found that it is a known phenomenon with mechanicals and quite frankly isn't a big deal, I'm living a life not running a marathon.

[benlee]

Originally Posted by lapince

Ceramic can't be fixed or polished as far as I know, I'm no expert but I'm practically sure 100% of this, sorry man...



Ben, mine also sometimes lines up perfectly, sometimes not, and as I said in a few minutes delay between each time I check, I look and it's fine and 4 minutes later it's 50% off, hope it's not the case for you but you need to check a few times, just looked at mine and I'm 30% off, was fine 5 minutes ago, not cool

Yeah perhaps but who really tell the time by keep staring at the mins and sec hands whether they align perfectly or not? That's into OCD territory. If it really bothers you so much you should send it in to get it fix.

[texex91]

Originally Posted by texex91

I think you stated you purchased at the Paris AP Boutique...just take it back and have them send it in for service.

Originally Posted by benlee

Yeah perhaps but who really tell the time by keep staring at the mins and sec hands whether they align perfectly or not? That's into OCD territory. If it really bothers you so much you should send it in to get it fix.

Agreed, but already tried to explain that to him--he says he bought at 'AP Paris Boutique', so I have no clue what the issue is

[FightOnSC!]

As Paul will attest, I def can be a little OCD with my time pieces but I've also had my fair share of QC problems to back up my worries.

The minute hand can be a little behind or ahead of the marker. I've seen this plenty. I try to set the minute hand halfway between the current minute and the next minute when I set my watch with the second hand at 12. (A 30 second head start for the minute hand).

I find that this keeps my minute hand ahead of the current minute slightly so there's no confusion as to what time it is.

Also, depending on where the minute hand is on the dial I find it to be a little behind or a little ahead (for example, on the crown side I find the minute hand to be ahead of the current minute, and on the non crown side to be behind). I don't think you have any real issue as I've found this to be true on most my APs

Concerning the scratch, if it's NOT a chip on the ceramic itself, you can remove the scratch with the use of a PEN ERASER. Usually they look grey and are a bit coarse like sand. I had a scratch on my case from the titanium pin buckle that I thought was permanent since titanium is pretty hard on the vickers scale but lo and behold, the pen eraser removed the scratch easily.

Any scratch on ceramic is essentially the material getting caught in the ceramic itself if it is a softer material on the vickers scale than ceramic. I remember I scratched the middle case immediately after purchase and it wasn't until 7 months later I discovered this trick and it looked flawless.

[lapince]

Originally Posted by improviz

splitz07, correct me if I'm wrong but issue you discussed was not one of absolute accuracy but rather a misalignment of the minutes hand as it made a circle around the dial, i.e. the accuracy wasn't affected but only the position of the minute hand when the seconds hand crossed 12:00, so for example referring back to your pictures:

first picture has seconds hand crossing at 12:00 and minute hand lined up at 9:27;
second picture has seconds hands crossing at 6:00 and minute hand is just a bit past 10:25;

Etc. in other words, the watch itself wasn't losing/gaining time in the manner that arnaud is describing (which is checked by examining the position of the seconds hand, hopefully), but rather the alignment of the hour hand and the minute markers did not *correspond* to the seconds hand in certain positions, a different issue. Correct?

Arnaud, in your case is it that the actual seconds are off, i.e. you have the seconds aligned with a good source in one case but off by 20 seconds in the next? If so this is a different issue, but hour hand alignment in my experience does drift somewhat as hand rotates around the dial (Rolexes as well, per my post above), main thing is: is the *seconds* hand gaining/losing 20 sec or are you talking about alignment of the min hand wrt the seconds crossing 12:00?

No in fact no problem with accuracy, I didn't check that, I was talking about the accuracy on a previous watch I had where it could be off by 20 seconds in a few hours but be very accurate on a 2 week time, the problem is that when the second hand hits 0 or 60 like you prefer, the minute hand sometimes is right on the minute marker, sometimes completely in the middle of 2, that's the problem...

Originally Posted by benlee

Yeah perhaps but who really tell the time by keep staring at the mins and sec hands whether they align perfectly or not? That's into OCD territory. If it really bothers you so much you should send it in to get it fix.

Well as I said I will see in September about this, very strangely until a few hours ago it was completely wild, perfect then a few minutes later off by 50%, then ok, but I've been checking maybe 5 times the last 2 hours and it's fine, will see tomorrow, of course it's not something awful but when I get something supposed to be high end I kinda like it to work perfectly, and the variations of alignment of minute hand and markers is not what I call working perfectly, it's like everything, it can bother some people and others not, I just found out about it a few hours ago so am in the surprise mode and haven't figured out yet if it's something that really I can't stand or if it won't bother me so much, I'm not a accuracy maniac for example, as long as the watch isn't too inaccurate I usually can go along with it, this is a new problem tat I've never encountered so need to figure out if it's a big problem for me or not, the fact of sending the watch in for a few weeks, seeing that the OP got back his scratched and being without it for some time would tend to raise my tolerance for the misaligned minute hand, too soon to tell

Originally Posted by texex91

Agreed, but already tried to explain that to him--he says he bought at 'AP Paris Boutique', so I have no clue what the issue is

Paul I understood perfectly, I sent an email to the director of the AP showroom where I got mine, since the AP boutique closed and they haven't opened the new one they serve as AP boutique but by appointment only, I explained the problem to him and said I would probably come by in September, but like I explained I haven't figured out if it's something I can't stand or if it'll be ok, and also since it's mechanical I want to see if it's a recurrent problem or just happens from time to time, when I started posting on this thread it was really crazy, every few minutes it was going from aligned to 50% off, I have checked a few times in the last hours and it was perfectly aligned, so I don't want to jump to conclusions and drop the watch off tomorrow, maybe it's just temporary, or maybe at times it does that but not 24/7, maybe in September even if it continues I will have gotten used to it and it won't be such a big deal, especially if the general accuracy is good, in any case I want to have it for the summer as I prefer the pool and beach with the diver than with the 5712

[improviz]

Have you ever checked this on any of the other watches your own, or are you only doing it on the AP because of the OP's post? I ask this because had you bothered to read the post in which I documented this, the link for which I very thoughtfully provided, you would see that this is a known problem that affects other brands of watches.

Much ado over nothing.

[improviz]

Originally Posted by benlee

Yeah perhaps but who really tell the time by keep staring at the mins and sec hands whether they align perfectly or not? That's into OCD territory. If it really bothers you so much you should send it in to get it fix.

Exactly.

[lapince]

Originally Posted by improviz

Have you ever checked this on any of the other watches your own, or are you only doing it on the AP because of the OP's post? I ask this because had you bothered to read the post in which I documented this, the link for which I very thoughtfully provided, you would see that this is a known problem that affects other brands of watches.

Much ado over nothing.

I have checked with my other watches and never had this, but there is something very strange, yesterday my minute hand was acting really crazy, but last night and since this morning I have checked a number of times and it's spot on every time, so will see how it goes, maybe it happens from time to time, don't really know, in fact it happened yesterday after I set the exact time, and for a few hours it was acting really strange, so maybe it just needs to regulate itself, that's why I always prefer to wait and check how things go than to run to AP to give them, it seems to me it's the case since it's been sometime totally on the spot with the markers, if it starts to get crazy again will post an update

[wdin]

Originally Posted by Clivek

I would certainly try asking for a new watch. You don't get if you don't ask.

Originally Posted by Archangellight

to break the rules you must first master them. Lol

So one has to master the art of asking?

[lapince]

The director of the AP showroom answered my email saying to bring it in, I explained him that it has been normal for sometime so we'll see later.

[lapince]

So after a few days since last post I can say that the minute hand is perfectly sync with the markers, so in my case it seems that it does this for a few hours after putting it on time, after a moment it gets normal after being like crazy, I am relieved as I really didn't want to send it in and not have it for a few months.

[lapince]

ok I checked and my diver was at +1 minute in 6 days, set the time and at 10 minute intervals I have +18sec, -12sec, plus the minute hand being off, so it's going into SC after the summer as I've never seen this before, really crazy, sucks that I'll be without it for some time, good I have the Patek…

just checked and it's minus 22 sec, really crazy, it seems they will also have to change some pieces as I don't think it's just a tuning problem, seems clearly that some pieces are defective...

[lapince]

Just checked it again and it seems to have calmed down as it is still minus 22 sec after summer to APSC it goes, at least it's not Patek with 8 months waiting time, maybe much more if parts need to be replaced, I think it will be the case for my diver, anyone ever had this kind of "crazy" watch? At first I was only checking the minute hand and not really the accuracy, if it was only the minute hand a little off for a few hours it would be ok, but the accuracy is too much off for it not to go the the SC, 1 minute in 6 days and the way it behaves just after setting the time is just too much, can't believe that in 5-10 minute intervals you have +16, -12, +18, etc, first time I see a watch behaving this way, so clearly needs to be fixed, hope they won't scratch it like they did your's, will be sure to have pics and written paper from them saying the watch is 100% like new and doesn't have the slightest scratch...

[PJ S]

Are you making sure the movement is fully wound?
That sort of behaviour is normally attributed to isochronism – when the power reserve is very low, the timing can vary due to the change in torque from the mainspring.
Give it a good 40-50 winds – don't worry about overwinding, since it's an automatic, the spring will just slip inside the barrel.

[lapince]

Originally Posted by PJ S

Are you making sure the movement is fully wound?
That sort of behaviour is normally attributed to isochronism – when the power reserve is very low, the timing can vary due to the change in torque from the mainspring.
Give it a good 40-50 winds – don't worry about overwinding, since it's an automatic, the spring will just slip inside the barrel.

It's completely wound, first I wear it 24/24, and even like that every 2 days I wind it, and after a few turns, 5-7 you feel it reached the maximum winding, so the problem clearly isn't that but something else

[PJ S]

Agreed – if it's behaving like that fully wound, then there's something amiss.
I know you've only two watches (I think), but I'm tempted to suggest you consider spending €180 on a timegrapher to see the rate and graph output.
That might yield some insight as to the state of the movement.

[splitz07]

Just to update as I see a significant number of comments over this and I was very busy over the last week.

I was informed by the AP service center that the 'scratch' was in fact a very stubborn stain and that they had manged to remove it through ultrasonic cleaning. I was able to collect the watch the following day. Fair enough on this.

However, the main issue at hand was that the problem (drift in alignment between minute and second hand) I had originally sent it in for was not fixed. On the same day I had collected the watch back, the problem still persisted despite the servicing that was done. Not wanting to go back to the service center, I decided to hold on to it to observe again over the next few weeks.

A few days later, I received a call from the service center from a person called Jeremy who was the AP Asia Client Care manager. Apparently the email I had sent through the AP website was directed to him and he called to check if the problem was fixed. I told him there was no issue with the 'scratch' as it had been fixed as described above but that the misalignment issue was still persisting.

He then arranged for me to come down to the service center to meet both himself and the service manager Thomas to discuss the issue. My concern was whether or not any of them actually understood my issue and he assured me that Thomas was an experienced watch maker with AP before joining AP's servicing team and that it would be best for me to explain the problem to him and get his advice before deciding what to do.

So a few days ago, I went down to the service center to meet them. I showed the photographs I had of the problem and he told me that the drift between the minute and second hands is actually a normal occurrence in a mechanical watch. The gist of it being that vibrations even from normal use of the watch can sometimes throw of the alignment of the gears off by a hair and these become accentuated by the wide sweeping arc of the watch hands as the gears play 'catch up' with each other.

I told him that I was not able to find much information on this and he said reason that you do not find much information on it is because not many people actually notice it happening, and the degree to which it happens varies. He added that I am not the only who has come to him with the same problem and that what was happening is not an issue with the watch movement but rather the way mechanical watches work.

Honestly, I can't say that I am 100% sold by the explanation give, but going back to my Rolex and observing, I do see some degree of drift between the minute and second hands but it is not as exaggerated as what I am seeing on the AP - but I would estimate the rolex to have a max drift of about 10 seconds whereas the AP can be completely out of sync by 30 seconds.

For the moment, I have decided not to be too bothered by this issue as I would like to enjoy the watch rather than get so hung up on it. For now, the assurance from AP that this is normal and that I have the option to have the matter revisited during the next service will suffice. What do you guys think about their explanation?

To add on, my experience with the service center had not been too good, but at least there was some recovery directly from the more senior members and not just the day to day front office staff. They certainly don't treat the owners of their time pieces with much exclusivity over here - I reckon this has to do with the fact that consumer protection laws over here are not as strong as in the US or Europe. They do not provide any travel cases or premiums that I have seen others post about in the forums. All I got was a foam pouch to put my watch in and an AP paper bag. Sad.

[PJ S]

Freebies shouldn't be expected, but it is a sad state of affairs that there isn't consistency between service centres. Why Singapore scrimps on a measly travel case is a question you'd need to raise with Switzerland, if Jeremy can't provide a satisfactory answer.
I'll bet the local fast food franchise looks exactly the same as every other one around the world.

As for the explanation given, I get the concept of the hands magnifying the problem, but given the tolerances watches are built to, I'm not convinced it's anything more than a theoretical issue.
However, as you've said, it's probably not healthy to fixate on the issue as it will ruin your enjoyment of the watch, and as you believe you've noticed on the Rolex (albeit not just as much) maybe it is something which only certain people will be attuned to perceive.

[SMD]

I have observed this with many brands. Not unique to AP. Accuracy is unaffected.

[Archangellight]

Hmm so AP has not fix the problem. Thats very sad. It is high end watches.

[Joe.King]

Ever since this thread was started almost 3 months ago I have been checking my Rolex Exp 2 Polar and now my recently acquired AP diver. Not a single time have I noticed this behavior, on either watch.

Every instance I check, when the second hand hits the 12 position, the minute hand is dead nuts on the minute. Of course I am not fixated on the watches 24/7. But it only means something if it happens when I check. If it's doing some other weird crap say if I am sleeping, I simply don't care.

[improviz]

Originally Posted by Archangellight

Hmm so AP has not fix the problem. Thats very sad. It is high end watches.

According to AP watchmaker this is normal. Btw are you friends with DreambreaX? Your posts look very similar to his.

[improviz]

Found other instances of this phenomenon (other brands) through my good friend Google:
http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?6...Hand-A-problem

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f2/accu...ds-973267.html

http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...ute-hand-drift

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f23/slo...nd-441201.html

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f2/seco...nd-433586.html