1000' - Do normal divers ever go that far?

[DSJ]

Has Anyone On TRF Exceeded The Depths Of A Submariner?

[Mrdi]

"I fully trust the watch, they are just too "treasured" for me to take a $9,000 TT or a $25K 18kt down there when a $900 state-of-the-art dive computer is a 100 times better for the task."
Says BigHat


I agree, I don't drive my Porsche over 60MPH either !

[DSJ]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

You have got to be kidding. You (supposedly) wear yours out in public but wouldn't wear them for the purpose they were made for? It would be like buying a sports car and never going over 55 MPH. It just doesn't make any sense to have something of that calibre and never let it go anywhere near it potential.

Great analogy.

[jasonbellevue]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

You have got to be kidding. You (supposedly) wear yours out in public but wouldn't wear them for the purpose they were made for? It would be like buying a sports car and never going over 55 MPH. It just doesn't make any sense to have something of that calibre and never let it go anywhere near it potential.

x3

I dive with any of my dive watches, including my 16613 T/T Sub. I rely on my dive watch, dive tables and my SPG Combo. I'm a sports diver and not a professional diver.

...and to answer the original question by the OP, no, "normal" divers DO NOT go that far.

[jasonbellevue]

Originally Posted by ral

It is also good to remember that 300m/1000ft actually means:

* The watch can witstand pressure equivalent to 300m of water depth, with the watch motionless in still water.
* The watch can be used for scuba diving to a depth 30m, for two hours.

Originally Posted by vjb.knife

This is utter non-truth. This whole notion that moving your arm around in the water significantly increases the pressure that you watch seals experience is not true in any way shape or form. Assuming the seals are in proper condition, a 300 meter watch can be used to 300 meters for any period of time with no problems - no time limit. Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

Good point, Vince. I was wondering about that earlier post too re: ..."with the watch motionless in still water".

[Andad]

Last time I dived was at the Clan Ranald wreck off Edithburgh in South Australia in 1976. The wreck is at about 20 metres but the currents are quite strong and there were quite a few Noahs Arcs around. This is the deepest I have dived and I can't remember if I was wearing a watch at the time. Visibility was bad and I have not dived since. I lent my gear to an aquaintance shortly after and never got it back.

[Trurolexer]

Even I can dive over than 3 meters, and I only do that in the swimming pool.

[Mr Sandman]

Originally Posted by Letsgodiving

Actually, Nitrox isn't used for deep dives. You can dive deeper on air than Nitrox. It can extend your time on moderate depth dives. Heliox and Trimix are for deep dives.

Yes Nitrox gives a longer bottom time.Any diver knows that going over the 50m threshhold puts puts him at a high risk of Nitrogen narcosis.....In the UK any diving that uses a gas mix is classed as technical diving...Using basic compressed air is classed as a normal dive.But this is another thread for another day.

As the original thread asked about the depth rating and would divers go this far has been answered I think debating the individual viewpoints of forum members on which gas blend to dive to which depth is slightly off topic.

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by vjb.knife

Assuming the seals are in proper condition, a 300 meter watch can be used to 300 meters for any period of time with no problems - no time limit.

An a bit more than the indicated depth actually.

[pwrslider]

Originally Posted by DSJ

You'd be crazy not to. Not taking a dive watch diving is like going for a walk and leaving your dog home!

Well said!...and my dog agrees too!

[f16570]

Wear it diving and in the unlikely event that a hammerhead pinches it, who cares it's insured.
Let it do what it was designed for.

[mickeydainish]

Originally Posted by DSJ

You'd be crazy not to. Not taking a dive watch diving is like going for a walk and leaving your dog home!

That's just what I thought......... Zanzibar... my first dive!?! All went well! That's me and my sub date.

[vjb.knife]

Originally Posted by Scarface

An a bit more than the indicated depth actually.

I absolutely agree.

[Aqua fobic]

50m is the accepted norm for scuba with air although some organisations only recomend 30m. (Personaly I have done 80m on scuba whilst working)

Nitrogen Narcoses starts at about 30m but you do build up a risistance to it if you dive often enough to greater depths.
Best analgey I can think of is its like drinking 3 pints of beer. At first you get drunk but do this everyday and soon 3 pints wont effect you and would need 6 to get the same effect.
Divings the same. Do 30m and you feel drunk. After a week of 30m dips you would need to go to 50 or 60 to have the same effect.

That is only 1 danger of compressed air at depth the other and more dangerous is O2 toxicity. Basically the oxygen starts to become poisonous when you start decending past about 75m or so. If the Partial Pressure of Oxygen exceds 1.6 this is when it starts to become toxic. Everyone is different so it effects people at different pressures.
Some of the symptons of O2 toxicity is Nausea, eyes twitch, tunnel vision and a few others.

This is obviously different in Mixed gas diving.
Take sat diving. Nitrogen is an inert gas, basically just a filler so this is replaced with Helium. The down side of Helium is the obviose "mickey mouse" voice but also that it is a cold gas and so at greater depths the gas has to be heated or it would cool the body core temp to much.

They did experiment many moons ago with hydogen instead of helium. The down side, apart from going BANG, is that hydrogen made people very depressed and phscotic so the abandend that.

To reduce to O2 Toxicity prob the % of oxygen is reduced to reflect the working depth and Partial pressure at that depth.

As for the submariner it will be fine in the water at depth. For 1 reason the pressure is excerted by water. The problem occures when your in sat and you finish your dive and go back to the bell. The pressure in the bell is the same as the outside water pressure but obviosuly a gas. A thin gas at that and it can permiate the watch. At the end of your sat, maybe 2 to 3 wekks later you start to decompress and this is when watches go POP.

For every 10m's down you go the gas (air) halfs. Simple example. Empty 1ltr bottle of air, with the top on. Go down 10m and you will have 1/2 a ltr of air in bottle. The reverse is true. If you put 1ltr of compressed air in the same bottle at 10m and put the top back when it got to the surface you would have 2ltrs.
The same with watches, if the gas can't escape it might well go pop.


Sorry about that got carried away a bit.

You can all wake up now

[DSJ]

Mark has illustrated again why I do not need a SD!

[Markg]

Originally Posted by Aqua fobic

Nitrogen Narcoses starts at about 30m but you do build up a risistance to it if you dive often enough to greater depths

Best analgey I can think of is its like drinking 3 pints of beer. At first you get drunk but do this everyday and soon 3 pints wont effect you and would need 6 to get the same effect..

like driving drunk; you THINK you arent affected, but you are. part of the effect is your brain is fooled into thinking youre ok...

Originally Posted by Aqua fobic

That is only 1 danger of compressed air at depth the other and more dangerous is O2 toxicity.

and one more is deep water blackout, which, if you are susceptible, normally happens somewhere between O2 toxicity and narcosis. virtually no one survives O2 toxicity (unless you are diving with a full face mask/helmet), but you can survive deep water blackout if you are diving with a partner/buddy and they bring you up, otherwise you just float away...

[vjb.knife]

Originally Posted by DSJ

Has Anyone On TRF Exceeded The Depths Of A Submariner?

Not too many people have. That deep work is not as common as it once was and even in the heyday there were probably not even a couple hundred or so in the world that had been that deep. I would rather not, even in today's systems.

[ral]

I got me info here: http://www.zeno-watch.ch/en/ServiceO...esistance.html

Water Resistance Classification

The "Water Resistant" mark has come to replace the "Water Proof" and is now described by the following ISO-Standard 2281:
Declaration on dial or back



NO DECLARATION


This model is NOT water resistant.
Any water contact should be avoided.

WATER RESIST


This model is resistant to minor and Accidental Splashes.
Greater water contact should be avoided

WATER RESISTANT 30M
(3 ATM / 100 Feet) *


Protected in everyday life, bathing, accidental splashes, short swimming or car washing - it is resistant against perspiration, water vapor, rain drops.
It is tested for water resistance up to 3 ATM, and must be able to survive 30 minutes under water at a depth of 1 m (3 feet) followed by 90 seconds under a pressure corresponding to 30 meters

WATER RESISTANT 50M
(5 ATM / 160 Feet) *


Protected in everyday life, bathing, accidental splashes, short swimming, car washing, parachuting, hang gliding and skiing - it is resistant against perspiration, water vapor, rain drops.
It is tested for water resistance up to 5 ATM corresponding to 50 meters

WATER RESISTANT 100M
(10 ATM / 300 Feet) *


Protected in everyday life, swimming, snorkeling, mountain climbing, parachuting, hang gliding, skiing and all kinds of sports challenges
It is tested for water resistance up to 10 ATM corresponding to 100 m

WATER RESISTANT 200M
(20 ATM / 660 Feet) *


Protected in everyday life, free diving without scuba gear, and all kinds of water sports.
It is tested for water resistance up to 20 ATM corresponding to 200 m

WATER RESISTANT 300M
(30 ATM / 1000 Feet) *


Protected for scuba diving to a depth of 30 meters, for 2 hours.
It is tested for water resistance up to 30 ATM corresponding to 300 m

WATER RESISTANT 500M
(50 ATM / 1650 Feet) *


Protected for scuba diving to a depth of 50 meters, for 2 hours.
It is tested for water resistance up to 50 ATM corresponding to 500 m




* The metres value does not relate to a diving depth but to the air pressure
used in the course of the water resistance test. (DIN 8310, ISO 2281, NIHS 91-10)

[ral]

Maybe the Rolex Submariner is ISO 6425 compliant. But never seen any declaration to that effect. I don't have a Sub. Maybe someone can check their documentation and see if any certification of ISO 6425 compliance is made.

ISO 6425 divers watch standards:

The standards and features for diving watches are regulated by the ISO 6425 - Divers' watches international standard and the equivalent German Industrial Norm DIN 8306. Diving watches are tested in static or still water under 125% of the rated (water)pressure, thus a watch with a 200 meter rating will be water resistant if it is stationary and under 250 meters of static water. The testing of the water resistance is fundamentally different from non-dive watches, because every watch has to be fully tested.

ISO 6425 water resistance testing of a diver's watch consists of:

* Immersion of the watch in 30 cm of water for 50 hours.
* Immersion of the watch in water under 125% of the rated pressure with a force of 5 N perpendicular to the crown and pusher buttons (if any) for 10 minutes.
* Immersion of the watch in 30 cm of water at the following temperatures for five minutes each, 40°C, 5°C and 40°C again, with the transition between temperatures not to exceed 1 minute. No evidence of water intrusion or condensation is allowed.
* Immersion of the watch in a suitable pressure vessel and subjecting it to 125% of the rated pressure for 2 hours. The pressure must be applied within 1 minute. Subsequently the overpressure shall be reduced to 0.3 bar within 1 minute and maintained at this pressure for 1 hour. No evidence of water intrusion or condensation is allowed.
* For mixed gas diving the watch has to be immersed in a suitable pressure vessel and subjecting it to 125% of the rated pressure for 15 days in a (helium enriched) breathing gas mix and then dropped to normal pressure within 3 minutes.

[B]Watches conforming to ISO 6425 are marked with the word "DIVER'S".

[seantk]

Originally Posted by ral

Maybe the Rolex Submariner is ISO 6425 compliant.

Thank you for this information - it was interesting

Sean

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by ral

Maybe the Rolex Submariner is ISO 6425 compliant. But never seen any declaration to that effect. I don't have a Sub. Maybe someone can check their documentation and see if any certification of ISO 6425 compliance is made.

Rolex clearly states in several pieces of their literature that this watch is capable of a dive at a real 300m environment underwater. And this means the watch not standing motionless. You can find this info also at several places on the net with a simple search.

In addition they don't need and will certainly never say that they comply with ISO. They don't need such tricks; these are for other brands. We are talking of ROLEX. R-O-L-E-X. You just don't get the attitude of this company yet Ral.
I mean, they themselves SET all these standards.

[ral]

No offense... but they go through a lot of trouble having almost all their movements tested by the COSC (and hence the Superlative Chronometer label on the dial). Rolex does seem to find at least the COSC 3rd party standard important, and not just their own.

[ral]

Anyway going back to the original posters question do divers ever go that far... (1000ft)

This record was broken in 2003 by British dive instructor Mark Ellyatt in Thailand who set a new record of 313 meters (1027 feet) for the deepest dive with scuba diving equipment. Mr. Ellyatt descended to 313 meters in just 12 minutes but his ascent took nearly seven hours to safely decompress before surfacing.Ellyatt set the record off the island of Phuket with a team of support divers stationed at various depths with additional tanks. He started with six cylinders and used another 24 before surfacing.

This record was apparently broken by Nuno Gomes in 2005. I guess he did it about the same way.

So the answer is: No, divers do not usually go 1000'.

If you do plan to go 1000': Get a Sea-Dweller. Consensus here, is that a Submariner can make it down to 300 meters. If you really dive that deep you will probably do so in conjunction with a diving bell (so you can actually stay down there and do something useful) so the Sub probably won't survive the trip back up since it does not have a Gas Release Valve... so if you want a 300 m capable watch, get the Sea-Dweller.

If you do it the way Ellyat did, I don't think you need the Gas Release Valve... but am not 100% sure about this.

Lastly: The Submariner is not overkill, don't think of taking your GMT Master II, Datejust or Explorer II diving just because it says it is water resistant to 100 meters.

[Markg]

Originally Posted by ral

If you do it the way Ellyat did, I don't think you need the Gas Release Valve... but am not 100% sure about this.

that is correct. if the WATCH is not exposed to the helium gas, which it wouldnt be if you are just out in the ocean and NOT in a recompression chamber (diving bell, whatever you want to call it), then the valve serves no purpose. so for 99.99999% of the divers out there, it could just be a piece of solid steel and we wouldnt know the difference...

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by ral

No offense... but they go through a lot of trouble having almost all their movements tested by the COSC (and hence the Superlative Chronometer label on the dial). Rolex does seem to find at least the COSC 3rd party standard important, and not just their own.

I don't think that Rolex goes through "a lot of trouble" with COSC - simply their movements are of such a high a standard that ... just pass their tests, where the grand majority of others can't.

COSC has to do with the whole "country-of-origin" issue that is a compulsory thing for a reputable Swiss manufacturer & useful for their branding. It is a core issue in horology, simply because ... accuracy is everything for a watch.

Clearly this has nothing to do with ISO standards, where Rolex doesn't feel the need to pay any attention - just because they exceed these standards and they don't need their reinforcement and accreditation.

[BigHat]

Originally Posted by Scarface

COSC has to do with the whole "country-of-origin" issue that is a compulsory thing for a reputable Swiss manufacturer & useful for their branding. It is a core issue in horology, simply because ... accuracy is everything for a watch.

\

See the recent thread on COSC. COSC is far from compulsory for: PP, AP, VC, etc.

[Scarface]

You 're right Matt, I meant important - not compulsory...

[ral]

Originally Posted by Scarface

I don't think that Rolex goes through "a lot of trouble" with COSC - simply their movements are of such a high a standard that ... just pass their tests, where the grand majority of others can't.

COSC has to do with the whole "country-of-origin" issue that is a compulsory thing for a reputable Swiss manufacturer & useful for their branding. It is a core issue in horology, simply because ... accuracy is everything for a watch.

Clearly this has nothing to do with ISO standards, where Rolex doesn't feel the need to pay any attention - just because they exceed these standards and they don't need their reinforcement and accreditation.

Maybe it is not "a lot of trouble". It is a step they could skip. The +4/-6 COSC standard of 1972 (I think) is not really all that hard to achieve today.

But even before COSC, Rolex prided themselves with accuracy and in 1914 submitted a watch to the Kew Observatory in Great Britain for testing. Rolex was awarded to Rolex wristwatch a CLASS A precision certificate. Third party testing has always been a part of Rolex history.

Back to 300m

Maybe Rolex 300 meters rating really means 300 meters in an actual use at that depth. I do not think it detracts anything from the watch if 300 m just means the regular 300 m water resistance.

If the Submariners 300 meters water resistance rating was really meant for actual use by divers operating at 300 meters, maybe they should incorporate their gas release valve on the Submariner too. Except for those few record breaking attempts, a divers watch intended to be used by divers at 300 meters depth should have a gas release valve so that it can survive spells in the diving bell (which is different from a recompression chamber).

I used to think those gas release valves on the SMP's were a useless marketing gimmick since I though it was only a scuba diving watch and not an immersion diving watch. I respected the fact the Rolex did not add unnecessary part to a watch which could be an additional cause of failure (one more valve which mike fail and let water in).

Apparently, I was wrong, and I guess the release valves on the SMP's actually serve a useful purpose.

Testing:

Video showing waterproof testing of a Rolex.

[Markg]

Originally Posted by ral

Except for those few record breaking attempts, a divers watch intended to be used by divers at 300 meters depth should have a gas release valve so that it can survive spells in the diving bell (which is different from a recompression chamber).

as far as the watch is concerned, if there is anything other than atmospheric pressure (like a submarine) then a bell is a chamber is a whatever; the watch cant tell the difference.

on the other hand, if the watch is only in the water, and NOT under pressure in an alternate gas atmosphere, then it doesnt need the valve.

finally, unless the alternate atmosphere has helium in it, the valve wont do you any good anyway, because there wont be anything to vent.

but helium is whats used at great depths/chambers, hence the problem.

if you werent using helium, you wouldnt NEED the valve, since the gas couldnt get into the watch in the first place!!! helium is one of the few gases small and active enough to penetrate the seals.
the larger gases that cant penetrate the seals like nitrogen/argon etc. are the ones that give you narcosis etc. and cant be used at those depths.

[dwm1]

Originally Posted by eq2675

I know nothing about diving, other than flapping around with snorkel and fins, so I have to ask how far down can a diver go with just an air tank and standard face mask?

130 ft is the recreational limit for a diver with advanced certifcation. Its 60 ft for a basic open water certification. I think Ive been to about 75 ft.

Doug