What if the "original" James Bond Rolex turned out NOT to be a Submariner?

[delldeaton]

Originally Posted by wantonebad

Dell, what do you know about Fleming the man? I remember seeing a special on WWII a few years back where a fellow member of the British naval intelligence service claimed that Fleming wasn't much of a patriot, he said he was more interested in women and wine then in fighting the Germans.

Now this could easily just be sour grapes or a personal vendetta this man was voicing but what do you know of Fleming the man. Was he a slacking bon vivant writer, a staunch supporter of the crown and fierce analyst, or something in the middle?

First and foremost, I'd say he was a very "compartmentalized" man, and quite effective in keeping those compartments separated. There are many instances you'll see in his writing, interviews w/ people who knew him, and biographies, where the only way to reconsile "this image," as described by one, with "that image," as described by another is to understand that it was so thoroughly a part of his character to deal with individuals (or clusters) w/out overlap.

Arguably this parallels the function of discrete "cells" in espionage work; so we can draw whatever conclusions come from that based on what we know of his intelligence role in World War II and the James Bond stories that got closest to this (eg, From Russia, with Love).

Do I think that a fellow contemporary who worked with him could have honestly described Fleming as you say here? Yes. Do I think that is an accurate description? No.

In answering "somewhere in the middle," I'd say that he was a smart and resourceful and creative man. I think he was quite good at what he did in British intelligence, and a major asset to the cause. But he was not a field operative, nor did he pick a watch for James Bond based on any of that sort of thing or interest there.

He absolutely was not James Bond in terms of the License to Kill, honed skills, or some secret life about which we know nothing. He unquestionably was James Bond in terms of what he wore, his dealings with women, and interest in technology and gadgets.

It's a great question you ask here.

Because in my opinion the reason why any sort of definitive ID of the Rolex model has remained open for new determination today is precisely because so many have failed to look at context. They don't read the books, and try to short-cut things by going after pictures. Then a snag comes up, such as the one you point out, and it's back to Square 1.

In the end - as others have implied here (and I often see in Threads of this sort) - none of this is life or death. It isn't one of the most important subjects we could be looking into, not even in horology. But it's interesting to a lot of people, and the search is a great deal of fun. So, let's enjoy it!

PS: We can still talk about James Bond watch sightings around women, right?

[wantonebad]

Originally Posted by delldeaton

First and foremost, I'd say he was a very "compartmentalized" man, and quite effective in keeping those compartments separated. There are many instances you'll see in his writing, interviews w/ people who knew him, and biographies, where the only way to reconsile "this image," as described by one, with "that image," as described by another is to understand that it was so thoroughly a part of his character to deal with individuals (or clusters) w/out overlap.

Arguably this parallels the function of discrete "cells" in espionage work; so we can draw whatever conclusions come from that based on what we know of his intelligence role in World War II and the James Bond stories that got closest to this (eg, From Russia, with Love).

Do I think that a fellow contemporary who worked with him could have honestly described Fleming as you say here? Yes. Do I think that is an accurate description? No.

In answering "somewhere in the middle," I'd say that he was a smart and resourceful and creative man. I think he was quite good at what he did in British intelligence, and a major asset to the cause. But he was not a field operative, nor did he pick a watch for James Bond based on any of that sort of thing or interest there.

He absolutely was not James Bond in terms of the License to Kill, honed skills, or some secret life about which we know nothing. He unquestionably was James Bond in terms of what he wore, his dealings with women, and interest in technology and gadgets.

It's a great question you ask here.

Because in my opinion the reason why any sort of definitive ID of the Rolex model has remained open for new determination today is precisely because so many have failed to look at context. They don't read the books, and try to short-cut things by going after pictures. Then a snag comes up, such as the one you point out, and it's back to Square 1.

In the end - as others have implied here (and I often see in Threads of this sort) - none of this is life or death. It isn't one of the most important subjects we could be looking into, not even in horology. But it's interesting to a lot of people, and the search is a great deal of fun. So, let's enjoy it!

Agreed, thanks for the info!!

[delldeaton]

Originally Posted by wantonebad

Agreed, thanks for the info!!

Moving right along:

My B-List:

• Jill Masterson (Shirley Eaton)
• Fiona (Luciana Paluzzi)
• Tiffany Case (Jill St. John)
• Plenty O'Toole (Lana Wood)
• Andrea (Maud Adams)
• Agent XXX (Barbara Bach)
• Holly Goodhead (Lois Chiles)
• Maud Adams, again (Octopussy)
• Magda (Kristina Wayborn)
• Stacy Sutton (Tanya Roberts)
• Kara (Maryam d'Abo)
• Lupe (Talisa Soto)
• Moneypenny (Samantha Bond)
• Paris Carver (Teri Hatcher)
• Elektra King (Sophie Marceau)
• Dr. Christmas Jones (Denise Roberts)
• Solange (Caterina Murino)

Maybe I should divide this into a B+ and a B- list? Nah!

[f16570]

Well written and informative. Thanks.

[Rolexitis]

Though I am a James Bond fan, it wouldn't matter to me what watch he was wearing. I know that the Sub is still an ICON with or without 007's approval. I voted Indifferent

[Quicksilver]

Hi Dell

Well, as you know this subject is also one of my hobby horses - but I have not gone into it in as much detail as you have and my knowledge is limited to my love of the books.

If Bond's watch was not meant to be a Sub, then I would feel moderately dissapointed. After all, we know that Flemming gave him a Rolex and that is a significant victory in its own right.

Flemming apparently wore (or at least owned) a DJ - but I have no proof of that, I just "read it somewhere". If that's correct then Flemming could have envisaged a DJ for Bond. Possible - but somehow it does not quite go with the image.

I am reasonably confident that Bond wore a Sub. I have just re-read Live and Let Die (the best Bond Book in my opinion). There is a scene in that book where Bond dons his diving suit and swims underwater to Mr Big's Carribean Island. His watch specially selected for the mission - a Rolex. It can only be envisaged as a Sub - although Flemming does not say so.

[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by wantonebad

Dell, what do you know about Fleming the man? I remember seeing a special on WWII a few years back where a fellow member of the British naval intelligence service claimed that Fleming wasn't much of a patriot, he said he was more interested in women and wine then in fighting the Germans.

Now this could easily just be sour grapes or a personal vendetta this man was voicing but what do you know of Fleming the man. Was he a slacking bon vivant writer, a staunch supporter of the crown and fierce analyst, or something in the middle?

I believe that he was a strong patriot - but not to the point of obsession. He had too many other compulsive obsessions to be totally focussed in that direction.

However, the Bond books do display on the part of Flemming a concern as to Britain's place in the world following the demise of the British Empire. Flemming's patriotism comes out in the assertiveness of Bond's character - Britain's man always saves the day.

Just see the Bond books as wish fulfillment for Flemming - they reveal a lot about his psyche. Bond never owned or did anything that Flemming would not like to have owned or done (or actually owned or done).

[Ed Rooney]

The Bond movies are cute and sometimes entertaining, but about as realistic as Harry Potter.

I vote indifferent.

[Troy]

All I know is he drinks Vodka martinis anything else is white wash

[delldeaton]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

... my love of the books.

If Bond's watch was not meant to be a Sub, then I would feel moderately dissapointed. After all, we know that Flemming gave him a Rolex and that is a significant victory in its own right.

Flemming apparently wore (or at least owned) a DJ - but I have no proof of that, I just "read it somewhere". If that's correct then Flemming could have envisaged a DJ for Bond. Possible - but somehow it does not quite go with the image.

I am reasonably confident that Bond wore a Sub. I have just re-read Live and Let Die (the best Bond Book in my opinion). There is a scene in that book where Bond dons his diving suit and swims underwater to Mr Big's Carribean Island. His watch specially selected for the mission - a Rolex. It can only be envisaged as a Sub - although Flemming does not say so.

The Live and Let Die Rolex, which is mentioned only once, has always stuck out to me like a sore thumb!

First off, Fleming describes the mission parameters in Chapter 17, "The Undertaker's Wind" (a phrase for which he had a particular fancy, by the way). Mines are to be placed on the hull of Mr. Big's smuggling ship, the Secatur, which is at an anchorage of "about thirty feet." It's February, and 007 must swim a 300-yard stretch of sea between his lookout point and the vessal. This is in Jamaica, in February.

Next Chapter, Bond gets specialized equipment, for which he "blessed the efficiency of M's 'Q' Branch."

Finally, in Chapter 19, "Valley of Shadows," that's where he stops in the middle of his swim: "He looked at the Rolex watch on his wrist. It was three minutes past eleven o'clock." There's actually an adjustment to the original typewritten text in Fleming's own hand, where he changes the time on the watch slightly. So he was very particular upon review of this, and the role that looking at the watch had to play in furthering the exposition.

[shedlock2000]

I have seen most of the fims at times, but i really cant pick one of the girls. Though im sure there all pretty, i have unusual taste, and though i apprieciate their beauty, there not my type!

My unusual tast means i dont really go for many of the hollywood fils stars from looks,..... the closest i could come to is Kate Beckinsale BEFORE she lost all the weight! It would be nice though to see a Brithish gal, in a British secret agent movie!

Out of the classic movies......hmm, maybee hallie berry? thats about the best i can come up with,....but shes wayyyy to boney!

[ArizonaHD]

Ian Flemings choices were limited to what was available during that period in history Rolex was THE watch for durability in those days, now a $99 Invicta will take just as much punishment and still work, I can see M on hold with ShopNBC right now, that is sold out James, we must use eBay...

[delldeaton]

Originally Posted by ArizonaHD

Ian Flemings choices were limited to what was available during that period in history Rolex was THE watch for durability in those days, now a $99 Invicta will take just as much punishment and still work, I can see M on hold with ShopNBC right now, that is sold out James, we must use eBay...

When talking about performance characteristics, I think those depended on the situation for which Mr. Fleming was writing - and into which he was placing James Bond. The Live and Let Die Rolex, as discussed, had to perform underwater during a mission to mine a ship. That's not the same as the situation in which the On Her Majesty's Secret Service Rolex was worn: Where James Bond was actually impersonating a man of refinement.

Continuity-wise, between these two assignments, Agent 007 has his watch shot off his wrist; so, unquestionably two* completely different references to Rolex in that regard.

That said, if we depart from a strict discussion of Rolex (although I have limited my Poll strictly to that brand), there's no doubt in my mind that Ian Fleming, overall, actually intended that James Bond should, indeed, wear a variety of lesser-valued time pieces.
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*Or, for that matter, at least three: The first Rolex in On Her Majesty's Secret Service is destroyed in service as a "knuckleduster."

[Goodwatch]

Originally Posted by JJ Irani

When I go to the Bond films, I look at the Bond girls......not some silly watches!!!

You, yet again, answered a question that wasn't asked, you git!

[Goodwatch]

I can't chose. The first Bond novel was 'Casino Royale' in 1953 and the first Sub came to market in 1954. I'm too lazy now to look up the first novel in which *a* Rolex was mentioned but it wasn't a Sub. But the (movie) choice for a MilSub (which it wasn't either, bar the strap) is very plausible.

[delldeaton]

Originally Posted by Goodwatch

You, yet again, answered a question that wasn't asked, you git!

If you look back in this Thread, you'll see that I was perfectly content to take this in the direction implied by JJ's response. Got my copy of Bond Girls Are Forever: The Women of James Bond, by Maryam d'Abo and John Cork, right in front of me. Just in case.


Photo: Courtesy Omega SA

Originally Posted by Goodwatch

I can't chose. The first Bond novel was 'Casino Royale' in 1953 and the first Sub came to market in 1954. I'm too lazy now to look up the first novel in which *a* Rolex was mentioned but it wasn't a Sub. But the (movie) choice for a MilSub (which it wasn't either, bar the strap) is very plausible.

No reference to Rolex in Fleming's Casino Royale, and, as you read the story, it's more than likely that whatever wristwatch it was, it didn't survive past the carpet beater sequence.

First reference was near the end of Live and Let Die, which Fleming completed in February, 1953. As it happens, I discussed a lot of that, timing, research into original documents, in my Blog just this morning. The subject line reads, "Did Jacques Cousteau have a say in the Rolex selection for 'Live and Let Die' by Ian Fleming?"

Outside of discussion simply for the sake of discussion (present company excluded of course), there's increasingly little doubt that a model 6538 Submariner Rolex was the first worn by Sean Connery as James Bond in the films where he starred. John E. Brozek called that half-a-decade ago in his October 2003 article for International Wristwatch; you'll also see similar IDs from Dowling and Hess, and Skeet and Urul. I've probably been one of the earliest and most consistent James Bond watch guys to cite their invaluable* work over the years - but hopefully not the last!
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*Well, "invaluable" if you're a serious student of James Bond watches, that is!

[Edmond Dantes]

Dell,

I voted indifferent. Only because I know he would be wearing a Rolex, just don't know which model.

Mike