Need help with authenticating...Stella Dial?

[springer]

Originally Posted by zapokee

I wouldn't call these new sunburst ones Stella dials. Yes, they're colored, but Stella is the old enamel dial with flat colors. And they still elude my collection.

Whatever works for you!

[onthedial]

Great comments by @Richard Carver and @77T.
I’ll just add that the American painter Frank Stella was a giant in the art world at that time, roughly mid 60s - late 70s. The notion that this particular dial type was nicknamed after the artist, owing to the shared color palette, seems quite plausible and generally accepted, I believe.
—————
IG: @onthedial


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Verdi]

Thanks for sharing gents!

A stella dial is always a vintage DD, imo.
From what I learned over the years, they were not that popular when they were available because whoever had the money for a DD wanted to have a classic dial to go better with a formal attire/suit.
Hence you see so many vintage DD with champagne, black and white dials.
I love the stella dials....they are truly special!

[77T]

I suppose (after the 2013 Basel DD releases) we could have coined a modifier - “old Stella” and “new Stella”.

But there is only one Original Stella...



Sorry...couldn’t help myself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Richard Carver]

Well, no one was into naming dials in the 60s and 70s, they were just watches. I've never heard the pop artist Stella story before and as we all know, anything is possible with vintage Rolex. :)

The Italians were early adopters in the study of the minutia of vintage Rolex and as a result we are graced with such wonderful names as Padellone to describe the case on the magnificent 8171 triple date moonphase and Freccione for the 1655 Explorer II.

There's no doubt in my mind the Italians were the first to catalogue the rare and esoteric colored dials on elderly Day Dates and I will continue to credit them with the naming of one of my favorite dials, the beautiful Stella (Italian for star). :)

This is fun, reminds me of the early days on the VRF when titans clashed over every font, plot, shape and engraving on every watch. Good times.

[Verdi]

Indeed, the Italians love to give nicknames to watches. However, I am not sure that in this case the name “stella” dial is associated with the italian meaning of the word.

Italians called the vintage Zeniths “Stellina” as they had the star as the logo. That makes sense.

[roh123]

Perhaps interesting for this thread. :)

https://www.instagram.com/p/BXPvCExl6LF/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BXPu7tiFnjv/

[Richard Carver]

Originally Posted by Verdi

Indeed, the Italians love to give nicknames to watches. However, I am not sure that in this case the name “stella” dial is associated with the italian meaning of the word.

Italians called the vintage Zeniths “Stellina” as they had the star as the logo. That makes sense.

Thank you! Can't believe I've wasted 20 years believing those Italians! lol

[miamiclay]

Originally Posted by roh123

Perhaps interesting for this thread. :)

https://www.instagram.com/p/BXPvCExl6LF/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BXPu7tiFnjv/

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

Thank you! Can't believe I've wasted 20 years believing those Italians! lol

Wow, thanks Per! So, Rolex actually called them Stellas, I’d not known or even heard that before.

Mr. Carver, I guess the Italians still could have begun it, but this does reveal that by sometime between 1977 and 2000, Rolex had either adopted or created the Stella designation for lacquered-color 5-digit DDs. I wonder if they had used it for 4-digits.

This being Rolex, of course every answer leads to three new questions (at least). In that second Mazzariol image, of the price list:

- Why are there multiple prices listed for most colors? It seems improbable that the color shades would be priced individually, but it could make some sense - IIRC, there are indeed two distinct shades of blue (‘baby’ and French) and of green (mint and Kelly), only one yellow, and arguably three reds (red-red, pink and oxblood), so that may be it.

- What is that second column? I’d guess column #1 is pricing for stand-alone dials and column #2 is the (laughably tiny) surcharge for Stella lacquer on an ordered DD, but even if that is so ...

- Why would some colors/shades not be listed in column #2? (And why would green #2’s surcharge be roughly 15X the average cost of the other shades?)

(We’ve strayed pretty far from the OP’s authenticity question, maybe this should become a new ‘Stella stuff’ thread?)

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

Thank you! Can't believe I've wasted 20 years believing those Italians! lol

Im not sure you wasted anything. It is more of a informed guess in my case, putting 2 and 2 together. Nobody seems to know for sure.
What I know for sure is that in the italian market they called the vintage Zenith “stellina” (little star) because of their star logo. The term caught on and you see everywhere old Zeniths called Stellina, although there was never a model with this name.

Back to Rolex and stella dials (which I am very fond of and I drool over an oxblood piece) I have never came across anything other than assumptions regarding the nickname.

According to Bob’s Watches:

Originally targeted at the Middle East market, the Stella dial watches (named either in reference to American artist Frank Stella and his choice of extremely bright colors, or after the Latin word meaning ‘star’, no one seems quite sure) failed to find a particularly enthusiastic response in their day, leading to a short-lived production run.

Made from a lacquered, multi-layered enamel, the ultra-conventional model was suddenly available in retina-threateningly bright pink, orange, green, turquoise and a host of other colors never found in nature.

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by roh123

Perhaps interesting for this thread. :)

https://www.instagram.com/p/BXPvCExl6LF/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BXPu7tiFnjv/

It is interesting.....but what are these papers?!
Are they official Rolex papers? Certainly not a catalogue or an add.

Looks like some sort of an inventory/AD or authorized service correspondence

[Richard Carver]

Originally Posted by miamiclay

Wow, thanks Per! So, Rolex actually called them Stellas, I’d not known or even heard that before.

Mr. Carver, I guess the Italians still could have begun it, but this does reveal that by sometime between 1977 and 2000, Rolex had either adopted or created the Stella designation for lacquered-color 5-digit DDs. I wonder if they had used it for 4-digits.

This being Rolex, of course every answer leads to three new questions (at least). In that second Mazzariol image, of the price list:

- Why are there multiple prices listed for most colors? It seems improbable that the color shades would be priced individually, but it could make some sense - IIRC, there are indeed two distinct shades of blue (‘baby’ and French) and of green (mint and Kelly), only one yellow, and arguably three reds (red-red, pink and oxblood), so that may be it.

- What is that second column? I’d guess column #1 is pricing for stand-alone dials and column #2 is the (laughably tiny) surcharge for Stella lacquer on an ordered DD, but even if that is so ...

- Why would some colors/shades not be listed in column #2? (And why would green #2’s surcharge be roughly 15X the average cost of the other shades?)

(We’ve strayed pretty far from the OP’s authenticity question, maybe this should become a new ‘Stella stuff’ thread?)

I'm not sure an insert apparently from 1986 is absolute proof Rolex randomly named some dials Stella. Rolex never named the 36mm Explorer, Explorer one. It came to be called that after the appearance of the EXII within the community. Yet, within the last few years Rolex has referred to the original as Explorer one. That discussion has been hotly contested itself. google it.

The point being Rolex has used common parlance in the past to refer to it's products. I would need more Rolex originated material from the original time frame to accept that Rolex did that.

Serious question, has Rolex ever named a dial a completely random unrelated to color or material name?

[miamiclay]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

Serious question, has Rolex ever named a dial a completely random unrelated to color or material name?

The only example which springs to mind is the “Gulda” coral dial, though I am not aware that Rolex ever used that term. The Paul Newman dial was called the “exotic,” which I guess might qualify ...

[roh123]

Feel free to believe it or not. Thought it would contribute to your discussion. Stefano is an authority when it comes to vintage Rolex so it is at least a tad more believable than many other things.

When it comes to Stellas originality I would only buy one through a very, very well-reputed dealer or one of the top auction houses. Not to be certain it is real; more to be certain I could prove it if I ever was to sell it. Few people, if anyone, would be able to tell what’s real and not when it comes to these. There’s just not any verified reference examples to compare against.

They are indeed very, very beautiful. I just wouldn’t risk my money buying an expensive refinished dial if I can’t show it comes with exceptional provenence.

[Richard Carver]

Originally Posted by roh123

Feel free to believe it or not. Thought it would contribute to your discussion. Stefano is an authority when it comes to vintage Rolex so it is at least a tad more believable than many other things.

When it comes to Stellas originality I would only buy one through a very, very well-reputed dealer or one of the top auction houses. Not to be certain it is real; more to be certain I could prove it if I ever was to sell it. Few people, if anyone, would be able to tell what’s real and not when it comes to these. There’s just not any verified reference examples to compare against.

They are indeed very, very beautiful. I just wouldn’t risk my money buying an expensive refinished dial if I can’t show it comes with exceptional provenence.

Good advice for any valuable dial. :)

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

Good advice for any valuable dial. :)

Both yes and no imho. For normal gilt dials which cost far more than a stella you still have plenty of reference dials to compare against. For super rare stuff such as special orders, old-old 3-6-9 subs etc you have a similar issue if theres only been a few ever made. The main issue with stellas is that many refinished dials hold basically the same quality as a real one and as these are so commonly made there is no real truth about which ones are good and which ones aren’t. Even correct ones can have small, small differencies between them.

Not saying all are wrong. Just saying it is bloody hard to trust the ones that indeed look right. Each to their own though.

Knowing where it came from is, at least for me, a must with a stella. Also knowing that the next owner will trust it is required. So basically having Shear, Ku, Phillips, Christies or Sothebys vouching for it on paper. Not because it necessarily makes the dial authentic. More because you can claim it to be.

[Richard Carver]

LOL, I would require those same safeguards for any expensive dial. I know you aren't familiar with Stellas but there are tells and they aren't that scary. :)

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

LOL, I would require those same safeguards for any expensive dial. I know you aren't familiar with Stellas but there are tells and they aren't that scary. :)

I am sure there are but these were never dissected the same way as sports watches back in the day when we actually learned stuff. I can for sure tell a bad one if I see it but I still don’t trust a good one regardless how nice the lacquer look around windows etc. As far as I know there aren’t any good reference styles so it is mostly just looking at it and trying to get a warm and fuzzy feeling while holding it. For sure not a completely terrible way of knowing after you handled enough watches but kind of scary. I don’t doubt that some people (you for example) know but this is still a quite undiscovered niche where a lot of redone dials are available and sold for a premium.

Fun pic from John Buckley showing some of the difficulties in this area.

https://www.instagram.com/p/6iQ0RwgP9Y/

[Richard Carver]

Obvious fakes for the reasons mentioned. Why do you have such a stiffy for Stellas? You must be aware there are far more fake sport model dials floating around than poor niche Stellas. And dare I say, far better attention to detail because there is more demand. :) Again, who in their right mind would buy any expensive dial without professional advice?

[rootbeer7]

This has turned into a jolly good post. Keep it up all (particularly with good manners).

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

Obvious fakes for the reasons mentioned. Why do you have such a stiffy for Stellas? You must be aware there are far more fake sport model dials floating around than poor niche Stellas. And dare I say, far better attention to detail because there is more demand. :) Again, who in their right mind would buy any expensive dial without professional advice?

I love stellas. I just can’t take a good redone one from a real one. It scares me.

One day I need one but I have no idea how that will happen. Your oxblood is beautiful by the way.

[Richard Carver]

Originally Posted by roh123

I love stellas. I just can’t take a good redone one from a real one. It scares me.

Exactly how I feel about red 1680s and red 1665s. :)

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

Exactly how I feel about red 1680s and red 1665s. :)

Well.. Those you can easily compare at drsd.com. Stellas you can’t find good references anywhere. Your good old VRF included. ;)

But I trust you that there’s people who do know. Appreciate you taking the time to share earlier this thread. I’m just sharing my thoughts.

[Richard Carver]

My point is it's the same situation. What if the 1680/1665 fakes are so good you can't tell? LOL, maybe carbon dating is the answer. :)

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

My point is it's the same situation. What if the 1680/1665 fakes are so good you can't tell? LOL, maybe carbon dating is the answer. :)

Sorry for trying to be constructive.. There is no, and never was, any good source of information where good examples were verified and shared. This does of course not mean that all are fake but it is a problem. It is basically up to each and every one of us to validate every single example.

For most other models and mk’s there are.

[Richard Carver]

I think we are being constructive and it returns to the same point...never buy an expensive dial without validation.

[77T]

Originally Posted by roh123

There is no, and never was, any good source of information where good examples were verified and shared.

Are you volunteering?

The existing sites like DRSD had to start once upon a time because someone had the desire and initiative.

Maybe a DD dials site is in your future


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[roh123]

Originally Posted by 77T

Are you volunteering?

The existing sites like DRSD had to start once upon a time because someone had the desire and initiative.

Maybe a DD dials site is in your future


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

The problem with the stellas is that very few are the same. It’s just not possible to write up a trusted database. Which ones are original and which ones are just great redone dials? I have no idea and many other collectors share that view.

I am not trying to talk these down. I love the look. It is just too many redone dials around to at least convince me to get one. Unfortunately.

[Richard Carver]

Originally Posted by roh123

The problem with the stellas is that very few are the same. It’s just not possible to write up a trusted database. Which ones are original and which ones are just great redone dials? I have no idea and many other collectors share that view.

I am not trying to talk these down. I love the look. It is just too many redone dials around to at least convince me to get one. Unfortunately.

I understand your lack of knowledge makes you nervous and no doubt you can't tell the difference like any noob. I'm the same about the red 1680/1665, those Vietnamese fakes were getting scary good a couple of years ago. I wouldn't touch one today without serious validation. :)

Again, same with any expensive dial.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

I understand your lack of knowledge makes you nervous and no doubt you can't tell the difference like any noob. I'm the same about the red 1680/1665, those Vietnamese fakes were getting scary good a couple of years ago. I wouldn't touch one today without serious validation. :)

Again, same with any expensive dial.

Please then help us share this knowledge. I’d be happy to see the different accepted versions of the 4-digit stellas.

I fully buy that an experienced person can tell by having them in hand. I do however not see that there are certain accepted mk1-2-3 or nickname versions people can trust like with most sports models.

Theres a reason why this market is very limited. I am sure some know and others want to know. It still just makes it very subjective compared to other models where most known versions are dissected time and time again and all is documented. Nothing wrong with that but that is just the point I am trying to make.

Handling watches is always the best way to learn but somewhere you need to have a baseline. I have seriously no idea where that baseline is when it comes to stellas. And that is not just me.

Post any sport model here on this forum and I promise you that someone knowledgeable will chip in and say if it is good or bad. Post a good looking stella that isn’t obviously bad and I highly doubt anyone would want to vouch for it.