Patek vs Lange

[Justindo]

I own multiple pieces from both brands and in terms of movement finishing and even overall quality, I don't think the two really compare, as Lange is far above Patek these days and that's for all of their watches, not just the $200,000+ grand complications. That written, all of Lange's cases, hands, dials, etc. are pretty much the same across the line, so that can get tiresome, especially if you don't like how they look or feel on your wrist. If you're looking for something to split the difference, I'd recommend Vacheron or Journe, both of which have better finishing than Patek, which is mostly machine finished these days, and more elegant cases than Lange. If you're on a budget, JLC is about on par with Patek quality these days for a lot less money.

[pam66]

Originally Posted by Justindo

I own multiple pieces from both brands and in terms of movement finishing and even overall quality, I don't think the two really compare, as Lange is far above Patek these days and that's for all of their watches, not just the $200,000+ grand complications. That written, all of Lange's cases, hands, dials, etc. are pretty much the same across the line, so that can get tiresome, especially if you don't like how they look or feel on your wrist. If you're looking for something to split the difference, I'd recommend Vacheron or Journe, both of which have better finishing than Patek, which is mostly machine finished these days, and more elegant cases than Lange. If you're on a budget, JLC is about on par with Patek quality these days for a lot less money.

i think you got that spot on. once you peel off the PP hype and know not to drink their kool-aid, a very different picture arises. i am warming up to Journe these days in particular. their sporty split second chrono is an amazing piece for very reasonable money.

[toucan]

I think PP finishing by and large is pretty darn good. Ever hold a 5370p ? It’s outstanding.
I’m not impressed by ALS except for their movements and maybe if PP used blue screws
we would all think differently .
Is PP making more mistakes than ever , probably? But there are a lot more PPs out there than ALS Journe and VC combined.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by dbfagan

Do you really believe FPJ is better than ALS?

Both are excellent, and as others have said both are far better than modern Pateks. Can't go wrong with either, and ALS does have its fans for sure.

[Josh1000]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Both are excellent, and as others have said both are far better than modern Pateks. Can't go wrong with either, and ALS does have its fans for sure.

But neither offer the removable lume option

[pam66]

Originally Posted by toucan

I think PP finishing by and large is pretty darn good. Ever hold a 5370p ? It’s outstanding.
I’m not impressed by ALS except for their movements and maybe if PP used blue screws
we would all think differently .
Is PP making more mistakes than ever , probably? But there are a lot more PPs out there than ALS Journe and VC combined.

i am no expert on movement finishing but i agree the dial of the 5370 and the case are very nice. but look at the retail price.....

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by pam66

i am no expert on movement finishing but i agree the dial of the 5370 and the case are very nice. but look at the retail price.....

The movement is done in the high grand complications department and is double assembled as per Lange. There is a noticeable difference in finishing compared to 5270.

[Token74]

Originally Posted by Russell996

The movement is done in the high grand complications department and is double assembled as per Lange. There is a noticeable difference in finishing compared to 5270.

Bit early in the day to use up my one stupid question per day, but what is ‘Double Assembled’?


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[Russell996]

Originally Posted by Token74

Bit early in the day to use up my one stupid question per day, but what is ‘Double Assembled’?


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Essentially the movement is built twice. Lange double assembles all it's movements, Patek does not, saving this for high complications only.

I expect the exact process differs between companies but this is from Lange web site:

Double assembly
To ensure the ultimate flawlessness of the movement, the assembly process is carried out in two stages. After the first assembly, every movement is taken apart and each individual part is then cleaned. Only at this stage do some parts receive their final surface finish – for example, the gold chatons are polished by hand and the three-quarter plates are decorated with the Glashütte stripes. The working screws that have been used up to that point are replaced by thermally blued screws. The movement is then reassembled.

[Token74]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Essentially the movement is built twice. Lange double assembles all it's movements, Patek does not, saving this for high complications only.

I expect the exact process differs between companies but this is from Lange web site:

Double assembly
To ensure the ultimate flawlessness of the movement, the assembly process is carried out in two stages. After the first assembly, every movement is taken apart and each individual part is then cleaned. Only at this stage do some parts receive their final surface finish – for example, the gold chatons are polished by hand and the three-quarter plates are decorated with the Glashütte stripes. The working screws that have been used up to that point are replaced by thermally blued screws. The movement is then reassembled.

That’s it. I’m sold. I need a Lange!


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[mongrelnomoad]

Originally Posted by pam66

i think you got that spot on. once you peel off the PP hype and know not to drink their kool-aid, a very different picture arises. i am warming up to Journe these days in particular. their sporty split second chrono is an amazing piece for very reasonable money.

I love Journe since I ambled into the Aoyama boutique a few years ago. They meld the daintiness of PP with the finishing of Lange, but add in a soupçon of playfulness too.

Just wish the watches were 38-40mm.

[Josh1000]

Originally Posted by mongrelnomoad

I love Journe since I ambled into the Aoyama boutique a few years ago. They meld the daintiness of PP with the finishing of Lange, but add in a soupçon of playfulness too.

Just wish the watches were 38-40mm.

Arent they?

[mongrelnomoad]

Originally Posted by Josh1000

Arent they?

Nope. He increased the sizes a few years ago. Now they're generally larger (too large for my 6" wrists at least)...

[Josh1000]

Originally Posted by mongrelnomoad

Nope. He increased the sizes a few years ago. Now they're generally larger (too large for my 6" wrists at least)...

Oh that's not good...I remember the CB was 39 and the CS you could get in a 38 and 40. The octa was a 40 or 42 ( that QP is gorgeous at 40mm but too big at 42)

[mongrelnomoad]

Originally Posted by Josh1000

Oh that's not good...I remember the CB was 39 and the CS you could get in a 38 and 40. The octa was a 40 or 42 ( that QP is gorgeous at 40mm but too big at 42)

Was talking with a salesman at the (lovely) London Journe AD, and he told me that their sales have fallen off a cliff since the size increase. That said, I'm pretty sure it's offset heavily by increased sales in Asia, Russia and the Middle East. European tastes tend to be... niche.

[Josh1000]

Originally Posted by mongrelnomoad

Was talking with a salesman at the (lovely) London Journe AD, and he told me that their sales have fallen off a cliff since the size increase. That said, I'm pretty sure it's offset heavily by increased sales in Asia, Russia and the Middle East. European tastes tend to be... niche.

Well if u are talking about someone just off New Bond Street then I can tell you I bought a CB from them in Feb 2015 with no waitlist. I often dirty their glass cabinets by pressing my nose against it...starring at the perpetual taht are available in all.metals and sizes...generally they dont sell!! And then make bigger watches which somehow also throw the proportions

[mongrelnomoad]

Originally Posted by Josh1000

Well if u are talking about someone just off New Bond Street then I can tell you I bought a CB from them in Feb 2015 with no waitlist. I often dirty their glass cabinets by pressing my nose against it...starring at the perpetual taht are available in all.metals and sizes...generally they dont sell!! And then make bigger watches which somehow also throw the proportions

That’s the one. Agreed about the proportions - I really think watches look best in the 36-39mm range.

Nobody agrees with me though...

[AK797]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Essentially the movement is built twice. Lange double assembles all it's movements, Patek does not, saving this for high complications only.

I expect the exact process differs between companies but this is from Lange web site:

Double assembly
To ensure the ultimate flawlessness of the movement, the assembly process is carried out in two stages. After the first assembly, every movement is taken apart and each individual part is then cleaned. Only at this stage do some parts receive their final surface finish – for example, the gold chatons are polished by hand and the three-quarter plates are decorated with the Glashütte stripes. The working screws that have been used up to that point are replaced by thermally blued screws. The movement is then reassembled.

WIS foreplay if ever there was. Must be like Kylie applying her make-up for millions of girls.

[Billfav]

Originally Posted by Josh1000

If you do a search this has been debated ad nauseam on TRF. The consensus is face up...Patek all the way....flip it over and ALS is a clear winner. Personally I think the PP is a bit more sophisticated as tbey are generally slimmer and more refined. The ALS is a bit like taking a hockey puck and strapping it on your wrist

As an owner of a couple of watches from both brands, the Patek has a refinement and warmth I don't find in ALS. Quality wise I believe both are on par. I am not sure I agree flipping it over the ALS is a clear winner. I can not agree more with how the ALS wears. It is important you try the Lange on. I have a 36mm 1815 and a Lange 1 1, at 38.5 mm. Both fit fine. The Lange 1 sits a bit high on the wrist. I lusted after a Richard Lange and trying it on that did indeed feel like a hockey puck on the wrist. That being said I love the ALS quality. I believe it is overbuilt like most things German. Someone in another reply to this thread commented that PP had more robust movements than ALS. I disagree. To me the ALS has a tank like quality. Both brands beautiful, but very different.

[mongrelnomoad]

Originally Posted by Billfav

As an owner of a couple of watches from both brands, the Patek has a refinement and warmth I don't find in ALS. Quality wise I believe both are on par. I am not sure I agree flipping it over the ALS is a clear winner. I can not agree more with how the ALS wears. It is important you try the Lange on. I have a 36mm 1815 and a Lange 1 1, at 38.5 mm. Both fit fine. The Lange 1 sits a bit high on the wrist. I lusted after a Richard Lange and trying it on that did indeed feel like a hockey puck on the wrist. That being said I love the ALS quality. I believe it is overbuilt like most things German. Someone in another reply to this thread commented that PP had more robust movements than ALS. I disagree. To me the ALS has a tank like quality. Both brands beautiful, but very different.

Agree that not all Langes feel unduly thick. My Lange 1MP feels great on the wrist; the Datograph and Zeitwerk, not so much. I assume the Saxonia thin feels wonderful.

With a few notable exceptions, I find so many of the Patek designs lazy nowadays. Most of the movements are too small, often the bezels are too wide, or the dials are too flat and/or the detailing is over-wrought. The one thing going for them over Lange IMO is that generally they are thinner and sit neater on the wrist. That's it.

[italiafan]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Essentially the movement is built twice. Lange double assembles all it's movements, Patek does not, saving this for high complications only.

I expect the exact process differs between companies but this is from Lange web site:

Double assembly
To ensure the ultimate flawlessness of the movement, the assembly process is carried out in two stages. After the first assembly, every movement is taken apart and each individual part is then cleaned. Only at this stage do some parts receive their final surface finish – for example, the gold chatons are polished by hand and the three-quarter plates are decorated with the Glashütte stripes. The working screws that have been used up to that point are replaced by thermally blued screws. The movement is then reassembled.

I am no engineer, nor am I a quality process person; however, seems a bit hokey to me. If there are new steps introduced in the second assembly, such as new parts (screws) and newly polished pieces then the tolerances are potentially "off" microscopically again. Also, with each assembly and disassembly there would seem to be room for human error, etc.
Seems to me you polish, machine and assemble to your very highest standard, then QA the heck out of the movement over a sufficiently comprehensive period of time and conditions to ensure the highest accuracy and reliability...more productive than pulling it apart, changing things, and putting back together.

[ap1]

I vote patek. I’ve owned 3 Langes and they haven’t lasted. They are wonderfully made and the movements are gorgeous (although I’d like to see
More of them on the 1815 small seconds and Lange 1 mp) They just aren’t as comfortable to me and Patek has a way better case shape and lug combo. I’ll say this - id call the backside of my 5170 and the 1815 chrono a push. But the 1815 chrono backside is way more pleasing than the Patek autos I have from the backside. That 1815 chrono needed applied markers on the dial I think

[martinr]

Originally Posted by mongrelnomoad

Was talking with a salesman at the (lovely) London Journe AD, and he told me that their sales have fallen off a cliff since the size increase. That said, I'm pretty sure it's offset heavily by increased sales in Asia, Russia and the Middle East. European tastes tend to be... niche.

Doesn’t Journe only make about 1000 watches per year? Seems to me that every one would sell if only because there aren’t that many to sell in the first place.

[Calatrava r]

A lot of great observations. PP is a slimmer softer designed watch from the French watch making tradition. The PP is really mainstream and their products hold their value fairly well on the used market. From a pure movement finish and build quality I think the Lange wins by a strong margin. But Lange design and fit is stark and robust in the Saxonian tradition. The feel of a Lange is far better than any PP in terms of winding and tactile feel on pushers. Every Lange I have ever owned never needs resetting, whereas every PP needs re-setting in a week or more. PP may not acclimate to how I wear and position my watch as well as Lange, who knows. Lange for some reason is softer than PP on resale so they say but a Datagraph Perpetual retails for 136K and sells used for about 90K. A PP 5270G-001 debuted in the US at 187K and can be had used for 105K or less. If my numbers are correct the Lange retained 66% and the PP 56%

[locutus49]

I do, but I have 6" wrists.

Originally Posted by mongrelnomoad

That’s the one. Agreed about the proportions - I really think watches look best in the 36-39mm range.

Nobody agrees with me though...

[pam66]

Originally Posted by Russell996

The movement is done in the high grand complications department and is double assembled as per Lange. There is a noticeable difference in finishing compared to 5270.

yes, we saw that at the occasion of the factory visit. 5370 and 5204 get the same preferential treatment.

[Fat_ninja]

Originally Posted by locutus49

I do, but I have 6" wrists.

Rounding up I see...

Lol

[mongrelnomoad]

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

Rounding up I see...

Lol

It's not the size, it's what you do with it.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by italiafan

I am no engineer, nor am I a quality process person; however, seems a bit hokey to me. If there are new steps introduced in the second assembly, such as new parts (screws) and newly polished pieces then the tolerances are potentially "off" microscopically again. Also, with each assembly and disassembly there would seem to be room for human error, etc.
Seems to me you polish, machine and assemble to your very highest standard, then QA the heck out of the movement over a sufficiently comprehensive period of time and conditions to ensure the highest accuracy and reliability...more productive than pulling it apart, changing things, and putting back together.

Well, as you say, you are no engineer. (sorry, couldn’t resist)
I am no expert either, except to say it is a process only followed by PP on high grand complications and carried out by their finest watchmakers - the difference in finishing is visible compared to pieces where it isn’t done.

[Token74]

Well, this thread has turned out to be a helluva education. Thank you all!


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