Must See -- RSC Botch - Anti Polish Police -- The demise of my 116618LB

[Fred48]

I thought this had something to do with the police in Poland ?!

[Tavli3]

OP while I kind of understand where you're coming from in not wanting to disclose the Trusted Seller's identity I have to disagree with that decision. As harsh as it might be to disclose someone's identity in this kind of scenario it simply has to be done. Why?

Because reaching and being bestowed the "Trusted Seller" status is a serious thing. And with it comes the commensurate increase in income and profit but more importantly it implies to us that the watch I buy from this person has been expertly scrutinized and represented honestly and accurately. Buyers especially those that are nonexperts rely on the trusted seller's expertise to do what they are not capable of doing and or don't have the time or inclination to do so. Buyers then place watches offered by "Trusted Sellers" above those offered by others and in some or most cases pay a premium for the Trusted Seller peace of mind.

Unfortunately this seems to happen more often then it should and if Trusted Sellers can't be trusted 100% then that is a very bad thing for the watch community. Now if you disclosed the identity it could be that this individual has had many many transactions without issue and this could just be an unfortunate mistake but a trusted seller must be held to a higher standard and in fact should hold himself or herself to a higher standard and not let things like this happen, there's just too much at stake for the seller and of course the buyer. So this time its a polish misrepresentation next time it could be a fake that "accidentally" gets by them as has happened recently(just read through the vintage forum). The dollars involved in most sales today is just too high not to have the utmost scrutiny and transparency applied to each watch being offered, period.

I'm getting the feeling that one might be better off with watches offered by those not considered trusted sellers. I hope that is just a knee jerk reaction on my part but again this is getting be an all too familiar story.

[Johngalt1]

Originally Posted by Tavli3

OP while I kind of understand where you're coming from in not wanting to disclose the Trusted Seller's identity I have to disagree with that decision. As harsh as it might be to disclose someone's identity in this kind of scenario it simply has to be done. Why?

Because reaching and being bestowed the "Trusted Seller" status is a serious thing. And with it comes the commensurate increase in income and profit but more importantly it implies to us that the watch I buy from this person has been expertly scrutinized and represented honestly and accurately. Buyers especially those that are nonexperts rely on the trusted seller's expertise to do what they are not capable of doing and or don't have the time or inclination to do so. Buyers then place watches offered by "Trusted Sellers" above those offered by others and in some or most cases pay a premium for the Trusted Seller peace of mind.

Unfortunately this seems to happen more often then it should and if Trusted Sellers can't be trusted 100% then that is a very bad thing for the watch community. Now if you disclosed the identity it could be that this individual has had many many transactions without issue and this could just be an unfortunate mistake but a trusted seller must be held to a higher standard and in fact should hold himself or herself to a higher standard and not let things like this happen, there's just too much at stake for the seller and of course the buyer. So this time its a polish misrepresentation next time it could be a fake that "accidentally" gets by them as has happened recently(just read through the vintage forum). The dollars involved in most sales today is just too high not to have the utmost scrutiny and transparency applied to each watch being offered, period.

I'm getting the feeling that one might be better off with watches offered by those not considered trusted sellers. I hope that is just a knee jerk reaction on my part but again this is getting be an all too familiar story.

OP is so sure that the seller is distraught over it. Just as likely the seller is lying about that as they were the case condition

[peterpl]

Honestly I'm really struggling to see the initial issues in the first place.

It looks nowhere near as bad as some of the hack jobs I've seen on some other members pieces. It actually looks quite good. Yes the edges might not be perfect like a brand new sub but you bought it second hand knowing ALL and i mean ALL second hand watches have been touched up by all the dealers.

[JacksonRain]

Originally Posted by Johngalt1

OP is so sure that the seller is distraught over it. Just as likely the seller is lying about that as they were the case condition

Originally Posted by Tavli3

OP while I kind of understand where you're coming from in not wanting to disclose the Trusted Seller's identity I have to disagree with that decision. As harsh as it might be to disclose someone's identity in this kind of scenario it simply has to be done. Why?

Because reaching and being bestowed the "Trusted Seller" status is a serious thing. And with it comes the commensurate increase in income and profit but more importantly it implies to us that the watch I buy from this person has been expertly scrutinized and represented honestly and accurately. Buyers especially those that are nonexperts rely on the trusted seller's expertise to do what they are not capable of doing and or don't have the time or inclination to do so. Buyers then place watches offered by "Trusted Sellers" above those offered by others and in some or most cases pay a premium for the Trusted Seller peace of mind.

Unfortunately this seems to happen more often then it should and if Trusted Sellers can't be trusted 100% then that is a very bad thing for the watch community. Now if you disclosed the identity it could be that this individual has had many many transactions without issue and this could just be an unfortunate mistake but a trusted seller must be held to a higher standard and in fact should hold himself or herself to a higher standard and not let things like this happen, there's just too much at stake for the seller and of course the buyer. So this time its a polish misrepresentation next time it could be a fake that "accidentally" gets by them as has happened recently(just read through the vintage forum). The dollars involved in most sales today is just too high not to have the utmost scrutiny and transparency applied to each watch being offered, period.

I'm getting the feeling that one might be better off with watches offered by those not considered trusted sellers. I hope that is just a knee jerk reaction on my part but again this is getting be an all too familiar story.

Disclosing the seller does nothing. There's nothing that can be said to change my mind on that, I assure you.

This type of thing does happen a lot, but that's life.

I'm sorry, but if you think that mistakes haven't happened in the past with truly truly innocent and honest sellers, and that you can feel 100% that you are going to get what is being advertised to you when you are purchasing from the green market, you are sorely mistaken. I now know this from experience.

There are trusted sellers where once in a blue moon super clones get in, redone parts, aftermarket parts, slightly damaged parts, scratch light blemish, etc etc. Here, my circumstances were a bit different, due to misrepresentation, the fact that the seller himself had dealt with the watch and purchased the watch, the fact that he had high definition photos that his photographer had taken, and he had purchased the watch from a private seller, so trust me, this thing was looked up and down and backwards, and of course let's not forget, inside out, with introduction to dust particles and debris

But, again, just to address your points, you are never sure. You are not the first owner of any watch you buy outside of the Jewelers / authorized dealers which have contracts with Rolex.

There is always an intervening person, there is always a risk. At best, you are the second owner.

Lastly, even when you buy from an authorized dealer, things can go wrong. I've said it in another post, sometimes authorized dealers accidentally damage goods, and those goods go to new Goods new jersey, when sold in usa. They then make the watch in sellable brand new condition, and then it is given from the authorized dealer to the purchaser, with no mention of the work done. This happens once in a blue moon, but it does happen.

Lastly lastly, like you mentioned these things happen all too often, with Sellers and not so trusted sellers, with private sellers or professional sellers. It happens. It is not right, or ethical, but it's the reality. It is not limited to the luxury timepieces, but it is something that is a part of life.

The focus should be on the fact that with the trusted sellers, you always have recourse and you can always get your money back. So IF YOU DECIDE to buy grey, you just have to remain vigilant and be careful. It's that simple.
There are several people I know that they do not care who they buy from, they will take it to a Rolex Service Center or ship it to a Rolex service center to get an appraisal or get it checked out, just to make sure everything is green and authentic and in order. I think that is wise and that's what I recommend should be done.

Stay safe. Take care.

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[JacksonRain]

Originally Posted by peterpl

Honestly I'm really struggling to see the initial issues in the first place.

It looks nowhere near as bad as some of the hack jobs I've seen on some other members pieces. It actually looks quite good. Yes the edges might not be perfect like a brand new sub but you bought it second hand knowing ALL and i mean ALL second hand watches have been touched up by all the dealers.

Interesting. As a newcomer, you are apparently assuming that I knew that some dealers lie, that they ALL lie about watches being unpolished when they are really polished?! Is that your message to everyone? Because I don't think that that's true and I don't think that we can think that low of people in this community. Not all Sellers lie, and not all sellers misrepresent watches when it pertains to being polished or unpolished. I would actually like to think that the overwhelming majority are truthful and fully transparent.

I agree, after the second refinish job, or I guess you can call it the third, they did get much much better, and was not as problematic for me, it was a heavily polished watch IMO, still arguably over polished, and definitely too much for me to enjoy, especially coupled with the history.

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[rolexjackson]

i say wear it and love it !

[Tavli3]

Agree buying in the secondary market can be like walking through a minefield and one can only do his/her best to not step on one.

"There are several people I know that they do not care who they buy from, they will take it to a Rolex Service Center or ship it to a Rolex service center to get an appraisal or get it checked out, just to make sure everything is green and authentic and in order. I think that is wise and that's what I recommend should be done."

Very smart and all purchases should be made with that intention disclosed to seller informing them that if everything is not kosher according to RSC you expect a full and immediate refund.

[JacksonRain]

Originally Posted by Tavli3

Agree buying in the secondary market can be like walking through a minefield and one can only do his/her best to not step on one.

"There are several people I know that they do not care who they buy from, they will take it to a Rolex Service Center or ship it to a Rolex service center to get an appraisal or get it checked out, just to make sure everything is green and authentic and in order. I think that is wise and that's what I recommend should be done."

Very smart and all purchases should be made with that intention disclosed to seller informing them that if everything is not kosher according to RSC you expect a full and immediate refund.

This

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[NorthboundRolex]

I consider a loupe an important piece of equipment to have if you're buying second-hand.

Whether or not a watch is claimed to be unpolished, I always use my loupe.

You can't hide a good/bad polishing job if you look at it with a loupe. I've seen enough unpolished factory watches that I can tell when someone tried pulling a fast one and polished them after.

A loupe will also expose those watches that previous owners sometimes do their own slight polishing when they get a small scratch from a desk-dive. There's tons of TRF'ers here that admit to doing it when they can't live with the scratches on their clasps. They can't hide those either.

Get yourself a 30x loupe and you can't go wrong. Amazon for $20 USD.

[Notsoprobro]

This all could have been avoided by sending it off to Rolliworks. You say that lost metal can't be replaced - this is a myth. Rolliworks can laserweld new metal and return the watch to factory specs.

I had an issue with a trusted seller advertising a watch as unpolished but the watch had rounded edges much like yours. It would have only been a few hundred to have Rolliworks return it to spec. The TS was willing to cover this but instead got a new one and swapped it out for a truly unpolished example. Either way I was happy with how the TS handled the situation and love my watch. Wouldn't have bothered me if we went the Rolliworks route either.

[mafoofan]

Originally Posted by Notsoprobro

This all could have been avoided by sending it off to Rolliworks. You say that lost metal can't be replaced - this is a myth. Rolliworks can laserweld new metal and return the watch to factory specs.

I had an issue with a trusted seller advertising a watch as unpolished but the watch had rounded edges much like yours. It would have only been a few hundred to have Rolliworks return it to spec. The TS was willing to cover this but instead got a new one and swapped it out for a truly unpolished example. Either way I was happy with how the TS handled the situation and love my watch. Wouldn't have bothered me if we went the Rolliworks route either.

I notice Rolliworks getting mentioned a lot these days. How do they compare to LAWW?

[mafoofan]

Originally Posted by NorthboundRolex

I consider a loupe an important piece of equipment to have if you're buying second-hand.

Whether or not a watch is claimed to be unpolished, I always use my loupe.

You can't hide a good/bad polishing job if you look at it with a loupe. I've seen enough unpolished factory watches that I can tell when someone tried pulling a fast one and polished them after.

A loupe will also expose those watches that previous owners sometimes do their own slight polishing when they get a small scratch from a desk-dive. There's tons of TRF'ers here that admit to doing it when they can't live with the scratches on their clasps. They can't hide those either.

Get yourself a 30x loupe and you can't go wrong. Amazon for $20 USD.

On the one hand, I totally understand doing proper diligence on a secondhand watch. On the other hand, I don’t think it’s mentally healthy (at least, it wouldn’t be for me) to get into the habit of studying watches with a loupe. Looking for microscopic finishing flaws quickly becomes obsessing over every single scratch from natural wear, which is not good place for your head to be when these things should be worn and enjoyed.

[Johngalt1]

Originally Posted by JacksonRain

Disclosing the seller does nothing. There's nothing that can be said to change my mind on that, I assure you.

This type of thing does happen a lot, but that's life.

I'm sorry, but if you think that mistakes haven't happened in the past with truly truly innocent and honest sellers, and that you can feel 100% that you are going to get what is being advertised to you when you are purchasing from the green market, you are sorely mistaken. I now know this from experience.

There are trusted sellers where once in a blue moon super clones get in, redone parts, aftermarket parts, slightly damaged parts, scratch light blemish, etc etc. Here, my circumstances were a bit different, due to misrepresentation, the fact that the seller himself had dealt with the watch and purchased the watch, the fact that he had high definition photos that his photographer had taken, and he had purchased the watch from a private seller, so trust me, this thing was looked up and down and backwards, and of course let's not forget, inside out, with introduction to dust particles and debris

But, again, just to address your points, you are never sure. You are not the first owner of any watch you buy outside of the Jewelers / authorized dealers which have contracts with Rolex.

There is always an intervening person, there is always a risk. At best, you are the second owner.

Lastly, even when you buy from an authorized dealer, things can go wrong. I've said it in another post, sometimes authorized dealers accidentally damage goods, and those goods go to new Goods new jersey, when sold in usa. They then make the watch in sellable brand new condition, and then it is given from the authorized dealer to the purchaser, with no mention of the work done. This happens once in a blue moon, but it does happen.

Lastly lastly, like you mentioned these things happen all too often, with Sellers and not so trusted sellers, with private sellers or professional sellers. It happens. It is not right, or ethical, but it's the reality. It is not limited to the luxury timepieces, but it is something that is a part of life.

The focus should be on the fact that with the trusted sellers, you always have recourse and you can always get your money back. So IF YOU DECIDE to buy grey, you just have to remain vigilant and be careful. It's that simple.
There are several people I know that they do not care who they buy from, they will take it to a Rolex Service Center or ship it to a Rolex service center to get an appraisal or get it checked out, just to make sure everything is green and authentic and in order. I think that is wise and that's what I recommend should be done.

Stay safe. Take care.

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5 words in I didn’t need to read anymore. Keep drinking the kool-aid and chomping that knob.

[Notsoprobro]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

I notice Rolliworks getting mentioned a lot these days. How do they compare to LAWW?

Can't compare them as I'm unfamiliar with LAWW even though I know they do amazing work from what is mentioned here. Rolliworks is local for me, here in the Bay Area, and is top notch - I've never seen less than quality work. They have an instagram if you want to see the magic.

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

On the one hand, I totally understand doing proper diligence on a secondhand watch. On the other hand, I don’t think it’s mentally healthy (at least, it wouldn’t be for me) to get into the habit of studying watches with a loupe. Looking for microscopic finishing flaws quickly becomes obsessing over every single scratch from natural wear, which is not good place for your head to be when these things should be worn and enjoyed.

Not to mention even new watches have flaws. Rolex has to polish the watch when it is brand new. Case shape, dimensions, and weight are NOT 100% equal if we really start splitting hairs. Every single new watch does not have identical finishing. It's not possible. Look at it through a fine enough lens, on a sensitive enough scale, with an accurate enough caliper, etc., and one will start finding issues with a brand new "unpolished" Rolexes.

If one is finding massive issues with a watch that has been properly polished a second time to remove only light hairline scratches, it's likely they are going to find issues with new watches as well.

With respect to the OP, I certainly understand their unhappiness given they were lied to and sold a watch that had been poorly polished. However, skilled polishing doesn't generally end that way.

[mafoofan]

Originally Posted by Gab27

Not to mention even new watches have flaws. Rolex has to polish the watch when it is brand new. Case shape, dimensions, and weight are NOT 100% equal if we really start splitting hairs. Every single new watch does not have identical finishing. It's not possible. Look at it through a fine enough lens, on a sensitive enough scale, with an accurate enough caliper, etc., and one will start finding issues with a brand new "unpolished" Rolexes.

If one is finding massive issues with a watch that has been properly polished a second time to remove only light hairline scratches, it's likely they are going to find issues with new watches as well.

With respect to the OP, I certainly understand their unhappiness given they were lied to and sold a watch that had been poorly polished. However, skilled polishing doesn't generally end that way.

100%.

The only caveat I’d add is that polishing gold is much more of an issue. From my understanding, so much more material comes off compared to steel due to the softness that you really do want to limit the number of polishes. Patek advises that their gold watches should not receive a full polish more than three times in their lifetime.

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

100%.

The only caveat I’d add is that polishing gold is much more of an issue. From my understanding, so much more material comes off compared to steel due to the softness that you really do want to limit the number of polishes. Patek advises that their gold watches should not receive a full polish more than three times in their lifetime.

That makes sense. I would assume the cutting and finishing compounds/wheels are presumably different for gold as well?

[mafoofan]

Originally Posted by Gab27

That makes sense. I would assume the cutting and finishing compounds/wheels are presumably different for gold as well?

An expert would need to answer this because I have no idea. But when I’ve discussed with folks at HSWA, they tell the above: you’ll lose much more metal with gold than with steel.

I often can’t see what’s wrong with the polish jobs done on steel Rolexes that people critique here, but I can easily spot a gold Calatrava that’s been polished once or twice. The lugs are always ever so slightly skinnier, the edges are always visibly not as sharp, and the mirror shine is always slightly more warped.

[minute_man]

I know how you feel. That's the reason why I would be VERY hesitant to buy pre-owned and ESPECIALLY from a reseller.
When I went to sell my GMT it had a pretty deep gouge along the polished part of the clasp. I had priorly inquired at RSC whether that would be repairable at service. They said it would, but barely so. Would NOT survive another polishing.
The rest of the watch was with some micro-dings and hairlines consistent with 5 years of almost daily wear.
They asked me if they could open it up to verify the movement. I offered to get it to the nearby RSC and ask for a service quote (on me). They refused so I said yes, as long as they paid.
They used some generic tools and after some fiddling eventually ended up asking MY help to hold the case while they unscrewed the case back. It was then that the tool slipped shaving off a couple of teeth and scratching both case back and case
I was like OMG this is nasty! The lady, very calmly, said:

-Sir, this is nothing to worry about. The brush takes it all away...
-Me: Ah, so good to know! (so that I'll never buy from you!!)

I'm afraid one cannot trust the "unpolished" advertising. OP, I understand your frustration. But your Sub still looks very nice. Don't let an expensive lesson kill the fun.
I hope you can get over all this and begin enjoying it to the fullest.

[Mario7717]

That’s the reason why I sold my beloved kermit 2 years ago . Just can’t look at that polished lugs and wave effect sides of the watch . Now I have 114060- and believe me that watch will never see any polishing


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[JacksonRain]

Originally Posted by Notsoprobro

This all could have been avoided by sending it off to Rolliworks. You say that lost metal can't be replaced - this is a myth. Rolliworks can laserweld new metal and return the watch to factory specs.

I had an issue with a trusted seller advertising a watch as unpolished but the watch had rounded edges much like yours. It would have only been a few hundred to have Rolliworks return it to spec. The TS was willing to cover this but instead got a new one and swapped it out for a truly unpolished example. Either way I was happy with how the TS handled the situation and love my watch. Wouldn't have bothered me if we went the Rolliworks route either.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

I notice Rolliworks getting mentioned a lot these days. How do they compare to LAWW?

Originally Posted by Notsoprobro

Can't compare them as I'm unfamiliar with LAWW even though I know they do amazing work from what is mentioned here. Rolliworks is local for me, here in the Bay Area, and is top notch - I've never seen less than quality work. They have an instagram if you want to see the magic.

So Mike at la watch works invented something a couple of years ago, which I do not believe he has tried on precious metal, but he has done a good number of stainless steel timepieces, I think he may have an engineering background. Anyway, he created something where he copied the case, and he melts the case but it somehow does not affect the serial number or the engraving between the lugs.

YOU CANNOT laserweld a case that has been over polished. It would take literally days to put the metal back and then replicate, it just can't be done. That's why Rolliworks created this mechanism to reverse over polished watches on some of the sport models.

Even then, it would never be exactly like the original coming out of Geneva, but it's still pretty darn good.

And I'm sorry that you had this experience with that trusted seller. Glad you are now happy with your watch

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[mafoofan]

Originally Posted by JacksonRain

So Mike at la watch works invented something a couple of years ago, which I do not believe he has tried on precious metal, but he has done a good number of stainless steel timepieces, I think he may have an engineering background. Anyway, he created something where he copied the case, and he melts the case but it somehow does not affect the serial number or the engraving between the lugs.

YOU CANNOT laserweld a case that has been over polished. It would take literally days to put the metal back and then replicate, it just can't be done. That's why LAWW created this mechanism to reverse over polished watches on some of the sport models.

Even then, it would never be exactly like the original coming out of Geneva, but it's still pretty darn good.

And I'm sorry that you had this experience with that trusted seller. Glad you are now happy with your watch

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Sounds like you should have just sent the watch to LAWW :)

[JacksonRain]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Sounds like you should have just sent the watch to LAWW :)

Forgive me, all of that have to do with Rolli works I will go and try to edit that, that was a mistake, everything I said above had to do with Rolliworks not LAWW, Edvi and and those guys at LWWW they do not have an engineering background. And I would never send my watch to Edvi at LAWW, nor would I send it to Rolliworks for any modern piece

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[Verdi]

99% of the watches that dealers have for sale are polished.

Why?!
Because the general public likes shiny watches with no scratches, sells faster.

Few people are aware or care about the watch being polished before. The forum is not representative for the general public.

[peterpl]

Originally Posted by JacksonRain

Interesting. As a newcomer, you are apparently assuming that I knew that some dealers lie, that they ALL lie about watches being unpolished when they are really polished?! Is that your message to everyone?
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I am not assuming. 99% of SECOND hand watches will be polished to some extent or another.

Do onto DavidSW website or any other TS. You hardly ever see any watches with scratches, dings and any blemishes on them. How is that possible for watches that are 3,4,5 or 10 years old? Its not.

They all have received some type of touchup or light polish. In same cases you can see some examples that its had 2-3 polishes already and the lugs are rounded and the brushed finishes are all uneven.

As above post to the general public and most buyers they like pristine looking watches. Its only us on TRF that obsess over this stuff. This is why I dont mind paying a few grand for brand new watches or if they are second hand I know 100% that they are not polished (sometimes that is very hard to do). Fairly easy on a fluted bezel model though. Anything on a ceramic bezel is much harder to tell if it was only lightly touched up and not a complete hack job.

100% Joe Blow from the street walks in and see's a watch with all marks and scratches he will not be buying it.

[Marcjvr]

If polishing is so bad why does Rolex even offer it

On this road we are going down we are soon going to end up at “DON’T get your watch serviced”

[AF_Rob]

Sorry to hear, OP. This hobby is supposed to be fun. The price we pay also comes with equal expectations.

I agree with not outing the seller. From what you say, the stress on both sides was proportional. Some here said you owe the seller nothing and should out him. At the same time, you don’t owe us anything either.

Hope you have a better streak of luck in the future.


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[JacksonRain]

Originally Posted by peterpl

I am not assuming. 99% of SECOND hand watches will be polished to some extent or another.

Do onto DavidSW website or any other TS. You hardly ever see any watches with scratches, dings and any blemishes on them. How is that possible for watches that are 3,4,5 or 10 years old? Its not.

They all have received some type of touchup or light polish. In same cases you can see some examples that its had 2-3 polishes already and the lugs are rounded and the brushed finishes are all uneven.

As above post to the general public and most buyers they like pristine looking watches. Its only us on TRF that obsess over this stuff. This is why I dont mind paying a few grand for brand new watches or if they are second hand I know 100% that they are not polished (sometimes that is very hard to do). Fairly easy on a fluted bezel model though. Anything on a ceramic bezel is much harder to tell if it was only lightly touched up and not a complete hack job.

100% Joe Blow from the street walks in and see's a watch with all marks and scratches he will not be buying it.

Originally Posted by AF_Rob

Sorry to hear, OP. This hobby is supposed to be fun. The price we pay also comes with equal expectations.

I agree with not outing the seller. From what you say, the stress on both sides was proportional. Some here said you owe the seller nothing and should out him. At the same time, you don’t owe us anything either.

Hope you have a better streak of luck in the future.


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Thanks guys. Since this experience I now only buy new through my AD. I no longer buy grey outside of the Rolex Network.



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[Das]

What a fuss about absolutely nothing. Can't see much wrong in the original pics. And Rolex polish at service as standard; I trust the maker more than internet 'experts'.