F.P. Journe, putting it all into perspective, and watch collecting today (long read)

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by llngoc

BTW, it seems like Lange is Watchbox’s newest darling?

It was the newest one about half a year ago, to be honest. Now Debethune is the newest.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

It was the newest one about half a year ago, to be honest. Now Debethune is the newest.

We should start to stock up on these now.

[rolexpatek363]

Looks like we are too late and Watchbox are followers, not leaders (much as I admire their good taste).

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

He actually used to. That's how he populated the Patrimoine certified pre-owned section of his website.

In the past 2+ years, that section has been dry and scarce. Why? For exactly the reason you're hinting at.

Lol should have figured. There is no case against what the OP is saying. It’s all true I just disagree that it’s news to anyone who actually owns a Journe.

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Lol should have figured. There is no case against what the OP is saying. It’s all true I just disagree that it’s news to anyone who actually owns a Journe.

From some of the comments I've seen, the hype has brought in a lot of new FPJ buyers that aren't aware of some of this history, they just showed up to the party and the kool-aid tastes great.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by lovetherolex

I usually don’t make threads, but in another thread during an innocent response to the OP’s question of ‘this or that?’, where I answered and gave context, the context apparently ruffled some feathers. And it got me thinking.

Why would that be?

I know there will be many here who have no illusions and will be unsurprised at what I’m about to say. Fellow veterans. I was surprised that there were so many uninformed about how we got here, at least with this particular brand, and what this tells us about the state of the watch world.

As an owner of this brand before the hype (and this 1000% a hype situation), I’ve watched what happened over the years, with Watchbox’s stake in F.P Journe as their biggest AD, their natural flow of inventory of a tiny brand with a tiny market, and their leveraging this control of inventory, along with their online presence where they began hyping the watches and whispering in the ears of collectors for years before many recently jumped on the train.

Watchbox had a coordinated, long term program to talk up and hype FPJ watches, and it worked. And you have to give them credit. They did what the brand itself couldn’t do for years. They could not shore up their market. And believe me or don’t, the brand itself is well aware of this. Supporting a brand to build it up takes a LOT of capital. Think about what that means. How to support a brand in the secondary market.

Keep in mind, FPJ was firmly in the dumps of retail with its collectors for all of its life before Watchbox came along and started on it. Facts. The watches were tough to move, heavily discounted, and still collectors were taking a bath on these timepieces. Facts. If you were in retail at the time, you know what I’m talking about.

Nice watches do not a market make.

This is why I said in the other thread, no one should mention F.P. Journe without also saying Watchbox. FPJ for their own actions don’t know how they got where they are but everyone at the brand acknowledges what Watchbox did. They are forever intertwined.

It’s another thing altogether for the people running FPJ in their inner circle saying hyped pieces like CB and Vagabondage are not worth the prices people are paying. What does calling it ‘crazy’, and ‘stupid’ behind closed doors tell you?

It’s interesting to me that we’ve entered a new era where some who are unaware of the history and only aware of the hype feel inclined to shut down the transmission of simple facts, and rewrite history. It smacks of trying to protect value in what they’re ‘invested’ in. Find the denier, and you’ll find where their money has been going.

This is not what watch collecting is about. It’s not about ‘the chase’ or ‘protecting value’.

How many of you are familiar with SJX?

https://watchesbysjx.com/2021/08/wat...e-bethune.html



https://storage.googleapis.com/pubza...ci_6994271.jpg An earlier version of the article by SJX.

Read between the lines. And this is a journalist (and a fine one) being publicly diplomatic to maintain access. I am not a journalist, so I can be blunt.

There are simply too many instances now where people are told the demand for an FPJ piece is x years long, then low and behold the watch shows up in a much shorter timeframe. How many people on the lists passed on the watches? How many people were even on those lists?

The hype does not survive critical thinking.

Is there something wrong with being honest with ourselves about these things? Can we not still enjoy the watches for what they are?

If not, that’s a big red flag, flapping in the wind.

And I think it has to do with the invasion of value collectors. It all smacks of the natural consequences of a hype bubble. I’m not an economist. I’m not in the business of making predictions of what will happen in the future. Everyone can buy whatever they want. It makes no real difference to me one way or the other. But I think all collectors have to be honest, with themselves and with others. Especially when in the alternative you will mislead others, like in the other thread. And that’s something that doesn’t sit well with me.

The history is the history. There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with that. But when we begin to ignore that and tell ourselves a different story that feels more appealing, I think that’s when we set ourselves up for trouble.

You know who won’t tell you this? The ones who are concerned about protecting value.

And as a veteran, I think (hope?) there are still rational collectors out there who want to hear it.

If so, this one is for you. We hope you will be here with us long after the hype.

Rant over.

Holy crap you nailed it. I mean you really nailed it. Great read. 100% accurate.

[Becweb]

Nice flex! Love you collection apart from the 2 ugly (IMO) FPJ and the Nautilus green dial.

Originally Posted by Hawaiian Timer

Aloha,

You're drawing specific historical conclusions based upon yours and others opinion and painting them as fact.

I didn't get the job I wanted at Safeway when I was 15...

Movie stars get discovered randomly. Overnight sensations DO happen.

I'm but an infant when it comes to the 180 history of Patek Philippe.

I have known about the quality of Journe now from my days at TZ since 2008 perhaps, but certainly not to the extent I do now.

These are facts above.

OJ Whatley and WatchUWant and Bruce Ginsberg from Watches 24/7 were around before...

Social media has changed a lot. The internet came first...

The millions of collectors around the world have the information they want at their fingertips and can decide where to spend.

Relevance and staying power require not only initial recognition, but individual piece quality, the creativity and ongoing innovation, while maintaining the rarity.

There is no marketing gimmick that could get F.P. Journe to this point. It's not a flash in the pan.

I celebrate the brand for its accomplishments in creating so many unique, functional and robust designs in a short amount of time in history (30 years)...

I doubt there will be another watchmaker like FPJ in my lifetime to accomplish what has been done.

And if there is, you can be sure I'll collect that brand...



Pictures will never tell the entire story. That is what social media lacks at times.



"Hype" is well earned these days.



I'm in for the long haul... just my 3 cents...

Have a great weekend...

Mahalo


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[Ichiran]

I started following Watchuwant more than 4 years ago in YT since Tim started posting videos. I remember watching him, OJ, Michael Michaels, Josh, C'Q and Federico taking turns to talk about watches in their respective segments. Love those contents because good ones were not so prevalent then.

I only started following FP Journe in the past 1 to 2 years. For me personally, it is not really because of Watchbox (although I acknowledged their influence) but the auction results of Journe watches during said period were the ones that drew me in. I started reading up more on their timepieces, fell in love with his philosophy and eventually ended up owning the CO, a watch Mr Journe said is "the ultimate chronometer, with precision being paramount to all else."

Of course one may argue the bidders of these Journe pieces at the auction could be themselves (I don't know). To me that's not important because it was just a factor that pulled me into this brand.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by Becweb

Love you collection apart from the 2 ugly (IMO) FPJ and the Nautilus green dial.

I think that comment is a) unnecessarily rude, and b) totally subjective.

IMO, the guy has an awesome collection, so there's some balance.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I started following Watchuwant more than 4 years ago in YT since Tim started posting videos. I remember watching him, OJ, Michael Michaels, Josh, C'Q and Federico taking turns to talk about watches in their respective segments. Love those contents because good ones were not so prevalent then.

I only started following FP Journe in the past 1 to 2 years. For me personally, it is not really because of Watchbox (although I acknowledged their influence) but the auction results of Journe watches during said period were the ones that drew me in. I started reading up more on their timepieces, fell in love with his philosophy and eventually ended up owning the CO, a watch Mr Journe said is "the ultimate chronometer, with precision being paramount to all else."

Of course one may argue the bidders of these Journe pieces at the auction could be themselves (I don't know). To me that's not important because it was just a factor that pulled me into this brand.

I watch Tim Mosso for the wrist shot to see how a watch may fit on my wrist when I have no physical access to the watch in interest. Best part of the video.

And congrats again on the CO. You are so lucky to get yours in such a short time. My friend trying to get this as his second piece after a RQ and is now on a three years waitlist.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Hawaiian Timer

I'm in for the long haul... just my 3 cents...

Have a great weekend...

Mahalo


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That’s an awesome BL Resonance.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by ajw45

From some of the comments I've seen, the hype has brought in a lot of new FPJ buyers that aren't aware of some of this history, they just showed up to the party and the kool-aid tastes great.

I've been a fan of FPJ for over ten years, managed to snag one five years ago, and have followed the brand assiduously both in the watch press & via YT.

There is no basis whatsoever to accuse WB or anyone else of hyping the brand, IMO. Hodinkee have been running stories about FPJ for many, many years, see also A Blog To Watch, Watchfinder, The Watch Snob, and many others.

I think what happened was the PP 5711 became unobtainable, collectors in that market started to look around for alternatives, like the original RO, and eventually lit on the Chronometre Bleu as a good alternative. CB prices rocketed, and the other FPJ models have got dragged upwards by the CB's popularity. People finally started reading and learning about FPJ.

That's my version of events.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by llngoc

I watch Tim Mosso for the wrist shot to see how a watch may fit on my wrist when I have no physical access to the watch in interest. Best part of the video.

And congrats again on the CO. You are so lucky to get yours in such a short time. My friend trying to get this as his second piece after a RQ and is now on a three years waitlist.

Thanks!
3 years seems ok to me given the low production. More so he already has the excellent RQ.
I still watch TM's 4 videos daily except for Sunday (no video) and certain days where he posts longer segments. Today he showed a BL RN.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Thanks!
3 years seems ok to me given the low production. More so he already has the excellent RQ.
I still watch TM's 4 videos daily except for Sunday (no video) and certain days where he posts longer segments. Today he showed a BL RN.

His video on the TV helped me make the decision as I was concerned about the size. Then his BL TV caused trouble for my AD.

What I found funny is that most watches fits 13.5cm wrist in his videos. But the down the barrel wrist shots are really helpful.


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[ajw45]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

I've been a fan of FPJ for over ten years, managed to snag one five years ago, and have followed the brand assiduously both in the watch press & via YT.

There is no basis whatsoever to accuse WB or anyone else of hyping the brand, IMO. Hodinkee have been running stories about FPJ for many, many years, see also A Blog To Watch, Watchfinder, The Watch Snob, and many others.

I think what happened was the PP 5711 became unobtainable, collectors in that market started to look around for alternatives, like the original RO, and eventually lit on the Chronometre Bleu as a good alternative. CB prices rocketed, and the other FPJ models have got dragged upwards by the CB's popularity. People finally started reading and learning about FPJ.

That's my version of events.

10 years a fan and you just found out the guilloche is stamped not hand cut. Just imagine what else you might learn about the brand if you open yourself up to other ideas and facts.... Or deny deny deny away, just as the OP called out.

[Nav01L]

I’m sure watchbox has had a huge effect, as has the watch internet (a relatively new phenomenon if you discount the nerd forums like ours), but let’s not forget, there was very fertile ground for their efforts to fall onto. I still believe this is generational to a large extent.

On the one hand we have Gen X, lots of folks have made huge successes out of themselves and are now in a wealth and age class where a) they have a lot of money b) the kids are out and the mortgage is paid, nothing much to bind resources anymore and c) they have less time to enjoy their wealth with every day that passes, as none of us get younger. Also, these folks have defined themselves through Rolexes and big German saloons for years already, so it’s time for them to differentiate into more sophisticated fields.

On the other hand we got Gen Z, young, ambitious, with a reasonably easy access to quick money in fields only they truly understand. This new generation grows up in a doomsday scenario, with pandemics and environmental challenges like none of their immediate predecessors have experienced so early in their lives. So as a result, they want to live life to the fullest while they still can. Drive V10 Lambos while they still exist and get those sweet dopamine hits when they show their new status symbols on social media.

This has created the perfect storm, as the new guard is appropriating all the status symbols of the old guard and the latter, with ample funds to do so, is trying to differentiate itself from the newcomers by moving into more eclectic fields they hope will underscore their sophistication.

And all of a sudden, you have tons of twenty somethings on the Daytona waitlist, while all the former CEOs, retired physicians and post exit entrepreneurs reveal themselves as avid collectors of whatever makes them look distinguished against that background - enters Watchbox to introduce them to one certain Francois Paul from Geneva, or Lange (only to realize that was not enough of a secret to make the folks in question feel smarter than the rest, so no cigar) and then DeBethune (where again the recipe is just right).

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by ajw45

10 years a fan and you just found out the guilloche is stamped not hand cut. Just imagine what else you might learn about the brand if you open yourself up to other ideas and facts.... Or deny deny deny away, just as the OP called out.

Wow, so you "caught me out" with one fact. A fact which I still can't verify from any credible source outside of anonymous posters on watch forums, btw.

I don't think it's possible to know every detail about any watch brand, and in any case I'm not especially interested in the dials, for me the movements are where it's at with FPJ.

Best wishes, and good luck with your tireless attempts to run down this brand.

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

Wow, so you "caught me out" with one fact. A fact which I still can't verify from any credible source outside of anonymous posters on watch forums, btw.

I don't think it's possible to know every detail about any watch brand, and in any case I'm not especially interested in the dials, for me the movements are where it's at with FPJ.

Best wishes, and good luck with your tireless attempts to run down this brand.

This is exactly emblematic of the original post. It's not that you were "caught out," it's that you refuse to accept viewpoints other than your own while also refusing to seek facts (ie, inquire with FPJ directly about their dials) and instead prefer to believe some kind of fictional image of the brand. First you denied that guilloche could be stamped and were all fired up that everyone was wrong, now you say you still don't know and it doesn't matter anyway. First deny, then put your head in the sand, then come back saying it doesn't matter anyway. Now when we talked about the role of WB in the FPJ brand (NOT THE WATCHES) the denials come again.

As for running down the brand, if you read my posts for actual content, not just the things that get you all fired up, I have never said the FPJ watches are bad watches. I never said the watches were bad because the dials are stamped, nor did I say the brand isn't great because the hype has been manufactured. You can have stamped dials on great watches and a great brand that is also over hyped.

I've had great watches from bad brands, bad watches from great brands, and all the other versions. It's okay to admit that if you buy something and you think something is great, it can also have shortcomings or things you wish were different. Your reaction is that my comments are negative because you like the FPJ bubble that you've created and any fact that messes up your fairy land is then seen as negative or a criticism. You are the topic of this thread buddy, glad you joined.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by ajw45

This is exactly emblematic of the original post. It's not that you were "caught out," it's that you refuse to accept viewpoints other than your own while also refusing to seek facts (ie, inquire with FPJ directly about their dials) and instead prefer to believe some kind of fictional image of the brand. First you denied that guilloche could be stamped and were all fired up that everyone was wrong, now you say you still don't know and it doesn't matter anyway. First deny, then put your head in the sand, then come back saying it doesn't matter anyway. Now when we talked about the role of WB in the FPJ brand (NOT THE WATCHES) the denials come again.

As for running down the brand, if you read my posts for actual content, not just the things that get you all fired up, I have never said the FPJ watches are bad watches. I never said the watches were bad because the dials are stamped, nor did I say the brand isn't great because the hype has been manufactured. You can have stamped dials on great watches and a great brand that is also over hyped.

I've had great watches from bad brands, bad watches from great brands, and all the other versions. It's okay to admit that if you buy something and you think something is great, it can also have shortcomings or things you wish were different. Your reaction is that my comments are negative because you like the FPJ bubble that you've created and any fact that messes up your fairy land is then seen as negative or a criticism. You are the topic of this thread buddy, glad you joined.

I have no intention of ever selling my FPJ, and the pricing has placed a grail out of reach. So I'm not happy.

Enjoy your evening, pal.

[Hawaiian Timer]

Sorry for delayed response, life gets busy.

I admire both authority, as well as the little guy.

People can have different versions of events.

But there is reality.

I enjoy Watchbox, and consider the person I correspond with there a good person.

They sell many brands, and Independants.

Are all of them going to be Journe?

As a parallel, the person who discovered or gives a movie star or band their "break"- they deserve credit...

But there are MANY factors that go into this.

But it is staying power once you GET the spotlight that deserves credit.

Which is the artist or the performer...

FPJ is unique and quality is unbelievable.

If you haven't held the watches, or owned a CB like 8 years ago and don't remember...

Things change.

Hey, I'm kind of a unique non-cookie cutter individual...

I realize where I'm posting.

I don't foresee superclones coming in the near future for FPJ. And this isn't a knock against Rolex or traditional watch houses.

Innovation is awesome. I embrace it when it's done well.

I make unique things every day.

Unless I didn't have enough fiber in the morning.

It has to be unique AND desirable.

When it's something that comes along and has a 30 year history...

I'm intrigued. I don't view all Independents on the same level.

But I applaud giving independents an ownership try. Journe has opened that door for many other brands.

DeBethune was around for a period similar to Journe commercially I believe...

Luxury Bazaar was around before Watchbox. Give social media credit, give auctions credit, give people credit.

We don't need to tear down something to make something else better do we?

As for market value...

I believed enough to put my money in...

and at the end of the day, the stock market, crypto and Real estate fluctuate... or go down...

Heck, at least I still have something to wear on the wrist?

As for "flexing", I feel stronger about this as a flex:



Than this:



And that's for various reasons...

Mahalo, and thanks for reading...


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[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Hawaiian Timer

But it is staying power once you GET the spotlight that deserves credit.

We don't need to tear down something to make something else better do we?

and at the end of the day, the stock market, crypto and Real estate fluctuate... or go down...

Heck, at least I still have something to wear on the wrist?

I enjoyed some of your quotes above, and what a great collection you have.
That engraved 5160 is a work of art. Please post more pics of your pieces if you will.

[Hawaiian Timer]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I enjoyed some of your quotes above, and what a great collection you have.
That engraved 5160 is a work of art. Please post more pics of your pieces if you will.

Mahalo. Will do. I do plan to take better pics with a better device...







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[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Hawaiian Timer

Mahalo. Will do.