Experience with Stolen Rolex that was recovered by Service Center

[travisb]

Interested in seeing how this gets sorted out. Good luck OP.

[hojlund]

Originally Posted by PenDelicate

I don't see this particular case as one concerning the, "Honesty," of a dealer, but rather that dealer's competence.

Incompetent dealers - those who refuse to, or don't know how to, evaluate whether goods are stolen - are just as much a threat to the innocent watch-buying/selling public as are their dishonest counterparts.

Surely, the priority should be to protect the watch-buying/selling public? In the interest of fairness, we can give the dealer every opportunity to explain why he or she is in the business of selling stolen property. It could even be valuable learning for the dealer community. Understanding precisely how this unfortunate circumstance was allowed to happen is key step in ensuring that it doesn't happen again. The reason why the OP is facing this situation might be precisely because the previous victim didn't name this dealer.

The entire basis for having, "Trusted dealers," is the ruthless exposing of untrustworthy ones. Surely every trusted dealer would support this.

"counterproductive to the object of speedy recovery" - That is a valid point. OP, do please name the dealer (if known) after you get your watch back.

that's exactly why I told people stay away from those grey dealers, they even don't ask for proper documents of a watch, let alone it's authenticity! AD route is the oily way to get a rolex.

[1William]

You are the owner of the watch unless you were paid by an insurance company for your loss. This is real simple for me, contact your local Law Enforcement Agency that handled the report and provide them with the documentation that the watch has been recovered. They should contact Rolex and verify the recovery and request the return of the property to them for return to the owner. The rest is grey noise and over complicated and unnecessary. I would not have contact with whoever submitted the watch or anyone else other than Rolex and Law Enforcement. Let us know how it goes.

[LAS45]

Good luck. I hope this gets sorted out and you are reunited with your watch soon.


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[Max7857]

If you have insurance and reported the theft to them they will handle the entire issue for you. If you didn’t report it they may still be able to help. I would check with your agent.

[hojlund]

Originally Posted by 1William

You are the owner of the watch unless you were paid by an insurance company for your loss. This is real simple for me, contact your local Law Enforcement Agency that handled the report and provide them with the documentation that the watch has been recovered. They should contact Rolex and verify the recovery and request the return of the property to them for return to the owner. The rest is grey noise and over complicated and unnecessary. I would not have contact with whoever submitted the watch or anyone else other than Rolex and Law Enforcement. Let us know how it goes.

I think even the insurance company already paid you for the loss you still can reclaim ownership of the watch and return money to the insurance company.

[Sgooter]

Why would a new DJ41 need servicing? Maybe the jeweler is honest and sent the watch to Rolex as a means to verify/expose the watch's provenance.
OP: I recommend you re-engage with your detective with this new info. The detective will pressure the jeweler to identify their customer, and sign a release letter to surrender their claim on this stolen watch. The jeweler might have insurance to cover their loss. Your detective will score points by nabbing the perp and closing out this case.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Atmwireless

My friend got his Rolex stolen in Las Vegas. He reported the watch to Rolex and thought that was going to be the end of it. 5 years later Rolex called him and said they had the watch in their possession but it wasn’t there job to figure out who the rightful owner was since the other party bought it from chrono24 and sent it in for service.

Rolex told my friend and the owner to figure it out themselves and when both parties agree… then they would release the watch. The other party asked my friend to wait while he did a chargeback on his credit card and then after would tell Rolex that my friend was the rightful owner.

Rolex then sent the watch to my friend

How do you do a charge back on a credit card after 5 years ?

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by 77T

I understand your hesitance -

It would seem that you will want a lawyer for the next steps ahead.

He or she will be able to work with your local police, the law firm claiming agency over the outcome, and Rolex itself. Rolex usually releases the watch directly to the police in the jurisdiction where it was recovered. It is puzzling why they are not doing so in your case.

While the watch is ultimately yours, your future lawyer will need to engage Rolex on your behalf.

I hope for your sake it is in the USA because it makes for a more straightforward process. It took 2 phone calls to recover my first stolen watch - and a short drive to the jurisdiction that recovered it.

In my more difficult recovery, it took almost 4 years for it to turn up at an RSC. I did the legwork myself beginning with my local authorities. Also, with Rolex UK and the UK authorities. I cleared the title by getting multiple dealers to release any claim to title. There were 3 who had been involved in the chain of transactions that resulted in an innocent buyer submitting my watch to the Rolex UK RSC. Two of them in the UK were "clean", one in the USA was sketchy and ultimately yielded by reimbursing the first clean UK dealer.

Since I'm retired I had all the time necessary - and it did take a couple of months... There were no law firms wanting to handle the case in Kings Hill.

Here is what you should see directly from Rolex via email:



Good luck and much success in the endeavor - I well-remember the positive feeling of getting my watches back. I still have 2 more out there that are yet to be recovered...only time will tell.


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Great information as always Paul

[bjdub]

General question for anyone with knowledge on this topic - is there not an insurance product for something like this that grey dealers can purchase? Pay a small premium, make a claim and pay a reasonable deductible when something like this happens if the stolen watch owner provides proof of purchase via bill of sale or warranty card when the grey mistakenly purchases a stolen watch? That way everyone wins and legal action is avoidable.

If true that 99% of watches purchased by greys are obtained legally, I would think this would be underwritable from an insurance perspective, relatively cheap, and a win win for everyone (watch owner gets their watch back, grey gets most of their money back, premiums are reasonable, profitable product for an insurance company to underwrite).

Maybe this already exists, but if not and you are in the insurance game, you're welcome!

[Commander C.]

If the jeweler or person who brought the watch to the jeweler for service is a "bona fide purchaser" of the watch, then, at least in the U.S., they have as much right to the watch as the original owner. That is why Rolex's law firm is asking you to try to work it out with the jeweler/other owner: you both may have legitimate claims to the watch.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Commander C.

If the jeweler or person who brought the watch to the jeweler for service is a "bona fide purchaser" of the watch, then, at least in the U.S., they have as much right to the watch as the original owner.

If you are an attorney, citation please.

Theft by taking is a criminal offense.
Title is usually a civil matter.

The principle is that stolen goods cannot be legally transferred - the original owner retains the right to reclaim them.


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[piratfisk]

Originally Posted by springer

Report the watch was recovered to the police agency that you notified of the theft. They can go seize the watch as evidence and complete their investigation. Once completed, the police would release the watch to you.

This seems like the move. Get the police to take the watch back themselves as evidence in an ongoing investigation. If that doesn't work, then collect your insurance check & get another?

[Commander C.]

Originally Posted by 77T

If you are an attorney, citation please.

Theft by taking is a criminal offense.
Title is usually a civil matter.

The principle is that stolen goods cannot be legally transferred - the original owner retains the right to reclaim them.


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Our responses are not mutually exclusive. In the U.S. someone cannot be a "bona fide purchaser" of stolen goods. Although the OP has reported the watch as stolen, the jeweler/other individual may claim that they are in fact a bona fide purchaser and that the watch was not stolen. And I don't know what other jurisdictions (Switzerland) say about such things. If they have a "bona fide purchaser" concept, they may consider even the purchaser of stolen goods to be a bona fide purchaser. That was in fact the case in early British and American common law.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Commander C.

Our responses are not mutually exclusive. In the U.S. someone cannot be a "bona fide purchaser" of stolen goods. Although the OP has reported the watch as stolen, the jeweler/other individual may claim that they are in fact a bona fide purchaser and that the watch was not stolen. And I don't know what other jurisdictions (Switzerland) say about such things. If they have a "bona fide purchaser" concept, they may consider even the purchaser of stolen goods to be a bona fide purchaser. That was in fact the case in early British and American common law.

We are discussing a US domestic theft, a subsequent recovery in the USA, and a 3rd party who has an attorney involved. Respectfully, the qualifiers you mentioned are not relevant.

The OP has the proof of original ownership (the sales receipts and docs). The unwitting buyer who submitted the watch to the RSC via an AD will likely get his/her money back from the dealer (or pawnshop) that sold the OP's watch.

Springer provided the succinct answer. I know this because I've done this. My first of 2 recoveries was as straightforward as Springer outlined - to a "T".


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[Apdl]

I don't like the grey market as much as the next guy but I don't see why the grey dealer is at fault here. Sounds like this is pretty standard.

[Ensign]

Sounds like the “other party” is trying to share his misfortune of coming into possession of a stolen watch with you. Or worse, “the other party” was involved in the crime and is trying to get something out of the situation.

[G-Web]

Something very similar happened to me a few years ago, and I've posted here about it.

In short, I bought a Rolex from a European seller. Shortly after it arrived I sent it in to RSC Dallas for servicing. Not long after that I received a letter from Gibney, Anthony, & Flaherty stating that the watch had been reported stolen some years earlier, and that because there were now two claimants to the watch (me, and the insurance company that reimbursed the owner who reported it stolen) we were urged to resolve the issue of ownership amongst ourselves.

The letter went on to say that IF we could not resolve the question of rightful ownership, Rolex would sue both of us, in order to bring the case in front of a court to decide ownership.

The takeaway, and what is key for the OP to understand, is that Rolex cannot and will not decide the question of legal ownership. That is a question that only a court of law can settle.

I would urge the OP to decline a meeting a with the other claimant, and demand that the issue be brought to court. If the OP has the proper documentation to prove both ownership and the police report indicating he was the victim of the watch's theft, it should be very quick and easy for the court to decide that he is the rightful owner.

All the best,
-GW

[East of Eden]

Originally Posted by PenDelicate

Do please name and shame the dealer that bought and sold the watch.

They aren’t shady just because they bought a watch with no papers

[EndlessEight]

So what happens when you get your watch back, release the insurance claim (if there was one) and it turns out the movement has been altered?

[JRique]

Originally Posted by brandrea

How do you do a charge back on a credit card after 5 years ?

The watch probably traded hands many times in this time frame, last owner bought it recently via chrono24 and sent to Rolex, so he did the chargeback.

[bay_area_kid]

Originally Posted by culvercity

Wow what a dangerous game Rolex is playing forcing its buyers to go to a pay to play corrupt Court to get their property back. There is a massive amount of political party risk entering into a pay to play court system when a Government cannot and will not ever enforce its border because there is so much graft etc. It will only be a matter of time probability wise before a bribed Judge sides with a shady grey dealer essentially running a scam through the pay to play Judicial System and awarding the stolen Rolex right back to the Grey Dealer after the Grey Dealer pays the bribe to the Judge. Trusting a pay to play Judicial System in a nation that cannot and will not ever enforces its border is like rolling the dice down at skid row literally! Mark my words someone will have their Rolex stolen from them it will get caught and seized by RSC. Then when the Rolex Client goes through the corrupt Judicial System the corrupt Judge will simply award the Watch back to the grey dealer sighting some obscure legal reason etc. Then the grey dealer pays the bribe to the Judge. Sad but this will be a reality that someone will face.

"Political party risk"? A nation that "cannot and will not ever enforce it's borders"? What in the world are you talking about?

Corrupt judges? I think you've read one too many tinfoil hat websites, buddy

[travisb]

Originally Posted by G-Web

Something very similar happened to me a few years ago, and I've posted here about it.

In short, I bought a Rolex from a European seller. Shortly after it arrived I sent it in to RSC Dallas for servicing. Not long after that I received a letter from Gibney, Anthony, & Flaherty stating that the watch had been reported stolen some years earlier, and that because there were now two claimants to the watch (me, and the insurance company that reimbursed the owner who reported it stolen) we were urged to resolve the issue of ownership amongst ourselves.

The letter went on to say that IF we could not resolve the question of rightful ownership, Rolex would sue both of us, in order to bring the case in front of a court to decide ownership.

The takeaway, and what is key for the OP to understand, is that Rolex cannot and will not decide the question of legal ownership. That is a question that only a court of law can settle.

I would urge the OP to decline a meeting a with the other claimant, and demand that the issue be brought to court. If the OP has the proper documentation to prove both ownership and the police report indicating he was the victim of the watch's theft, it should be very quick and easy for the court to decide that he is the rightful owner.

All the best,
-GW

Useful info.

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by Commander C.

If the jeweler or person who brought the watch to the jeweler for service is a "bona fide purchaser" of the watch, then, at least in the U.S., they have as much right to the watch as the original owner. That is why Rolex's law firm is asking you to try to work it out with the jeweler/other owner: you both may have legitimate claims to the watch.

bs!

You confuse the legal part ( stolen goods never become the legal property of the next owner, bona fide or not)
with the criminal aspect ( when you purchase „bona fide“, you can‘t be charged for owning stolen goods)

[JSCP]

lea.diluca@rolex.com is the NYC RSC service associate that sends Rolex Forms for US Missing Watch reporting.

Keep us posted butI would reach out the detective in your case.

[THC]

This reminds me of squatters taking over homes..
New York for instance, protects all squatters after 30 days of squatting.. they can even change the locks on a home they stole..

Anyway, you are on an egg timer it seems OP prior to them returning the watch. Best of luck

[East of Eden]

Originally Posted by bay_area_kid

"Political party risk"? A nation that "cannot and will not ever enforce it's borders"? What in the world are you talking about?

Corrupt judges? I think you've read one too many tinfoil hat websites, buddy

Either that or he’s been watching the news

[jedione65]

That is an unfortunate process to go through. Our home was recently burglarized and our entire watch collection was stolen. They did not take any of the boxes/papers/receipts.

All of the watches/serials for Rolex and other watches were reported to Rolex USA database as stolen and many other jewelers databases and international databases. My wife even paid for an international database that covers Europe as well. I also emailed a dealer on here with all the serials for the watches to be on the lookout as these watches are stolen. No reputable/trusted dealer should be selling stolen watches. This exposes them to a big liability I would think.

My understanding from the police detective is that anything serialized sold at a pawnshop needs to be entered into a database that is checked by police as well. We provided all of the stolen items/watches and serial numbers in an itemized list to the police, as this is a supplemental form part of the police report. So they do have this on file.

Either way if there is any dispute about who the owner is I would report it to the police detective to deal with it. No one should have claim to an item that was stolen. My only hope if the watches ever turn up, whoever these lowlife burglars are can be tracked and brought to justice.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by Commander C.

Our responses are not mutually exclusive. In the U.S. someone cannot be a "bona fide purchaser" of stolen goods. Although the OP has reported the watch as stolen, the jeweler/other individual may claim that they are in fact a bona fide purchaser and that the watch was not stolen. And I don't know what other jurisdictions (Switzerland) say about such things. If they have a "bona fide purchaser" concept, they may consider even the purchaser of stolen goods to be a bona fide purchaser. That was in fact the case in early British and American common law.

All this means is that the shop or second purchaser did not commit a crime by unwittingly buying stolen property.

This does not give the second purchaser a right to the property, only that a crime has not yet been committed by them. It also does not give the second purchaser a right to claim recovery of their cost from the rightful owner.

[KMalone]

Originally Posted by Kingcobb

the other party who did no wrong and is now in danger of being out a large investment

They received stolen goods. With the value of the watch, that would be a felony.

So, yes! Under color of Law they did do something wrong.