5070P ..is the market getting insane ?

[stradman]

Originally Posted by PP101

Really? I looked at a sealed 5070P yesterday that is being sold by a dealer with an asking price of £3,000 less ! And that is before any negotiation on the price ....

The seller from the weblink is a private seller and I have to say that I am very hesitant about pursuing the purchase of a watch of this value from a private individual.

Incidentally the watch that I looked at yesterday did not have an extra solid back. That seems to be correct for a 5070P, but can anyone confirm that ?

Also the watch that I looked at was in the standard brown travel box. The serial numbers had been peeled off the box, but from one of the barcode labels I could see that the box did not belong to the watch. Would people regard that as an issue ? I believe the seller to be well known and well regarded, but that did give me a little pause for thought.

Well if it was 85k and was sealed as you say, I would jump on it. I think that is a great price. Even if there was no room for negotiation. Having said that why the preference for a sealed watch? Aren't you going to wear it?

[paverman]

If you can get a sealed 5070p for $85k usd, I'll take two right now.

[paverman]

For that matter, if you can get a beat up 5070p for $85k, let me know.

[conkers]

I will have 12 please!

[subtona]

Originally Posted by paverman

For that matter, if you can get a beat up 5070p for $85k, let me know.

Originally Posted by conkers

I will have 12 please!

The referenced model was not selling for $85k usd

As posted in advert:
"Price £88,000 (= $133,051)"



Ps I would also take one for 85k USD :)

[HL65]

Originally Posted by conkers

I will have 12 please!

Ill go in half with you Roger 6 a piece.

[Passionata]

Originally Posted by subtona

The referenced model was not selling for $85k usd

As posted in advert:
"Price £88,000 (= $133,051)"



Ps I would also take one for 85k USD :)

those damned tiny details

[conkers]

133k is more realistic!

[thomaspp]

Just found this old thread which I remember well when doing some searching! A good trip down memory lane!

How things have changed. Today 5070P clearly way ahead of 5970G and closer to the price of 5970P! Production numbers sure have an effect on collectibility! Lol

[conkers]

Indeed. Getting a lot harder to find these days!

[tom2517]

Originally Posted by unknown

I think it is a bit Less Ken

They made indeed about 250 per year per color

1998 till 2002, 250 per year in yellow gold ( 4 years so about 1000 pce)
2002 till 2006, 250 per year in white gold ( 4 years so about 1000 pce)
2004 till 2008, 250 per year in red gold ( 4 years so about 1000 pce)

Basel 2008 and they introduced the 5070 in platinum, it took some months before the first were delivered and Basel 2009 they told us it was already discontinued.

So yes, it was 1 year in the catalog but I believe they only made it a few months.

Also know that at the same time they made the 5970P. 5970P also had a very shot run …. but since the 5970 had a much higher list price I wouldn't be surprised that Patek made a lot more 5970P than 5070P …. as you know it contains the same base calibre ( Lémania) and I think they preferred to use these last Lémania based movements for the more expensive watches.
If the Lémania stock was low, economically it is better to put it in the more expensive 5970.
I contacted SEVERAL AD back then and most of them did not receive a 5070P. My AD got 1 but at the same time he got 2 5970P … So I'm pretty sure they made more 5970P ( For the reason I said earlier)

So, we don't know how many 5070P they made but if you allow me to make a guess … I think it will be closer to 100 or 150

Patek still made some 5070P and 5970 and others for their super VIPs just recently, they are called London edition or something like that. As someone said in another thread, if you are important enough to Patek, they pretty much will make any reference for you. So it’s really hard to guess.

Edit: found a link https://www.salonqp.com/updates/watc...on-exhibition/

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by tom2517

Patek still made some 5070P and 5970 and others for their super VIPs just recently, they are called London edition or something like that. As someone said in another thread, if you are important enough to Patek, they pretty much will make any reference for you. So it’s really hard to guess.

Edit: found a link https://www.salonqp.com/updates/watc...on-exhibition/

They claim to have made 5 of each of the London editions.... but then again who knows. I know one vip customer who is trying hard to get a 5970 made but so far no success.


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[Russell996]

Originally Posted by tom2517

Patek still made some 5070P and 5970 and others for their super VIPs just recently, they are called London edition or something like that. As someone said in another thread, if you are important enough to Patek, they pretty much will make any reference for you. So it’s really hard to guess.

Edit: found a link https://www.salonqp.com/updates/watc...on-exhibition/

These were made for the London Exhibition back in 2015. Patek also made some special pieces for the New York Exhibition.

[Sam Philip]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

They claim to have made 5 of each of the London editions.... but then again who knows. I know one vip customer who is trying hard to get a 5970 made but so far no success.


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They made the London editions in 2015. However they have made 5970G with salmon dials after the London edition as well.

https://www.chrono24.co.uk/patekphil...-id8996792.htm

[unknown]

Originally Posted by tom2517

Patek still made some 5070P and 5970 and others for their super VIPs just recently, they are called London edition or something like that. As someone said in another thread, if you are important enough to Patek, they pretty much will make any reference for you. So it’s really hard to guess.

Edit: found a link https://www.salonqp.com/updates/watc...on-exhibition/

Indeed 5 pieces for the London Saatchi exposition.
5 of each so platinum, red, yellow and white gold.

Doesn't make any difference to the total production.

Besides on chrono 24 one of these 5 platinum if for sale .... for over 300.000 USD

[unknown]

Originally Posted by tom2517

Patek still made some 5070P and 5970 and others for their super VIPs just recently, they are called London edition or something like that. As someone said in another thread, if you are important enough to Patek, they pretty much will make any reference for you. So it’s really hard to guess.

Edit: found a link https://www.salonqp.com/updates/watc...on-exhibition/

to give a bit more info ... you know they sold these 5070 Saatchi editions for almost 3 times the price ?

5070G-014 GBP 89.000 --- EURO 125.000
5070J-012 GBP 81,500 --- EURO 115.000
5070P-013 GBP 111,000 --- EURO 155.000
5070R-014 GBP 88,000 --- EURO 125.000

know the Price of P was 58.500 euro in 2010, last known prices for the R was I believe 40.000 EURO

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by unknown

know the Price of P was 58.500 euro in 2010, last known prices for the R was I believe 40.000 EURO

They had the prices right back then. I think there would be a lot more takers and a firmer secondary at those msrps.

[goog53]

Originally Posted by GB-man

They had the prices right back then. I think there would be a lot more takers and a firmer secondary at those msrps.

Patek became extremely greedy when they introduced the 5170J at a whopping 87K USD. Even when they had a 7% price decrease in the US they couldnt give the 5170G away. In my opinion the 5070 is head and shoulders above the 5170 but if the 5170 was released at low to mid 60s I wonder if it wouldve been a better seller.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by goog53

In my opinion the 5070 is head and shoulders above the 5170 but if the 5170 was released at low to mid 60s I wonder if it wouldve been a better seller.

I must be in the minority but I much prefer the look of the 5170, the in-house movement fits the case and the bezel is a normal size!

[pam66]

what can we learn - if anything - from the price development of the 5070P for the future of the 5170P?

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by pam66

what can we learn - if anything - from the price development of the 5070P for the future of the 5170P?

Not sure, but I do know everyday I regret not taking mine. 😞

[SW1]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I must be in the minority but I much prefer the look of the 5170, the in-house movement fits the case and the bezel is a normal size!

A movement that actually fits the case is nice and that allows more balance on the dial versus the bugeye effect....i am with you on this

[watchucallit]

The movement of the 5170 is more advanced and more in house but the appearance of the 5070 is more appealing in my opinion

Originally Posted by Russell996

I must be in the minority but I much prefer the look of the 5170, the in-house movement fits the case and the bezel is a normal size!

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I must be in the minority but I much prefer the look of the 5170, the in-house movement fits the case and the bezel is a normal size!

I’m with you. I think the 5170G white was the best of the lot but sadly no demand.

[thomaspp]

Any comparison between 5070s and 5170s is not even a comparison! Back when 5170 was released I guess it was logical to compare, but I think this “comparison” is well settled today. Oh well..


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[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by pam66

what can we learn - if anything - from the price development of the 5070P for the future of the 5170P?

5170P will probably be made in greater numbers compared to 5070P so probably nothing to learn frankly

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

Any comparison between 5070s and 5170s is not even a comparison! Back when 5170 was released I guess it was logical to compare, but I think this “comparison” is well settled today. Oh well..


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Care to expand?

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Care to expand?

Will try to be open and honest despite it being bad for me here...

5070, the watch: Stepped case, charming dial, a lot of character, four metals/four dials and no direct predecessor (look back at the patek manual wind two register Chronos) or successor that is truly comparable. 5070 stands alone. For my subjective taste, 5170 has no character with bland case and patek trying to find the right recipe making many dial and case combinations.

5070, the market: produced in far lower quantities, production controlled by availability of Lemania base movement, long waiting lists and limited availability for the P in particular, today showing higher prices and deeper bench of bidders at auction thanks to high demand. For the 5170 on the other hand I believe they have made many more units with a too high msrp to pay the cost of in house vertical integration of all components... in fact if you see market performance for all in house manual wind Chronos, it is quite bad.

Be well.




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[SW1]

In fairness Thomas...the 5070 has this cult following..much of it around value retention. The converse to your positives is the 5070 is too large for many, too thick, has a movement from a much smaller watch shoved into a larger case, tbe numerals are cut off and tbe subdials are placed where the movement dictates versus aesthetics. I guess if they produced the 5170 in smaller numbers it would be a slam dunk for 5170.

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by SW1

In fairness Thomas...the 5070 has this cult following..much ot it around value retention. The converse to your posituves us tbe 5070 is too large for many, too thick, has a movement from a much smaller watch shoved into a larger case, tbe numerals are cut off and tbe subdials are placed where tbe movement dictates versus aesthetics. I guess if they produced the 5170 in smaller numbers it would be a slam dunk for 5170

I understand and you make good points. 5070 has its downsides and quirks I won’t deny that. It took me many years to love it and then I bought the 5070G and then the P as you know. I think many collectors find the watch appealing which has in turn led to positive market correlation but don’t think “investment” is the main driver. Compared to the how vintage Rolex and nautilus have been appreciating all of these watches are pretty stagnant to be honest. I love lemania pateks for their design and long term value is a great plus. In the end everyone buys what they like and believe in, just giving my 2 cents


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