Why are all the watch sites pushing F.P Journe?

[lanteanflux]

Originally Posted by wisguy

I like the watches, but I think they might have over produced.

There are just too many for sale, for what they produce, seems like way too many.

It's almost easier (not cheaper) to get one than a pre owned ALS or PP (dress of course).

Kinda takes away from the independent vibe? You don't see that many LF, RS, KV, PD out there, has FPJ become the most popular and abundant independent?

I don’t get why u keep saying this when it makes no sense and numbers don’t add up

[shafran]

Originally Posted by eviperman

As a FPJ collector of many years I believe this to be NONSENSE.

The fact is, Watchbox have very little to do with pushing up the prices, they are merely responding to the AUCTION market. It is well known that you have minimal chance in obtaining a CB from an AD with a waiting list of 7+ years (which they are no longer adding names to), so a $45K price for a CB is less than a 100% markup on an incredibly limited piece (around 100 are made each year).

A 38mm Resonance and Prototype RdM sold for $250K at a public auction, so Watchbox increasing their prices for such pieces merely reflects the public pricing action.

FPJ is a great brand, make quality products, and have VERY limited supply with around 650-850 mechanical watches made each year. Only 2000 brass movement pieces were made between 1999-2004, and these are the ones that have shot up in price mostly.

Plus, there are many rare dial variations that are very limited (ie, less than 20 pieces), so these ofcourse are going to sell for incredible premiums because average Joe can't just go and buy these as they go to real collectors (and rightly so!).

Furthermore, besides the CB, every other "standard" FPJ watch on the Watchbox website is selling BELOW MSRP, not above. If you want something rarer, you either need to pay for that or accept a more common dial etc.

I agree. SS Daytonas, PP 5711 and 5167 are all selling well above msrp. The only "regular" Journe over msrp on the used market is the CB. All of the standard watches are below, just like a similar AP or not popular Patek. The difference is that they used to sell on the used market for less than 50% of msrp, now they are more like 70-80 %. I believe its not price manipulation by watchbox, but more people are just interested in the brand and the watches.

[MrBlahBlah]

In, the latest trading desk podcast from Watchbox, they discussed it being a good idea for independents to “partner” with secondary market dealers in order to control the prices of their watches on the secondary. They then essentially implied that this was the relationship with FPJ.

[yonexsp]

I did email the local dealer here about a Blue Chronometer. But like Rolex it seems I have to buy another piece first from them to get on the list.

I am sure they will have no issue, as the super high end pieces still seem to be selling without issue.

"Thank you for your interest in the F.P. Journe collection.
The Chronometer Blue is not in stock and we are only offering this rare piece to customers as a second F.P. Journe purchase.

Regards,
Marco Bandiera
Bandiera Jewellers"

[ialienam]

By the way, I have noticed that on Watchbox website, they offer 2 years warranty to Journe watches. However I also do remember from a video they made, they said FPJ don't like third party touches their watches or would charge double when return to service.
In this case, if something goes wrong with the Journe's watch I buy within 2 years, return it, who service it? Anyone with real knowledge?

[DoraTheExplorerII]

Originally Posted by ialienam

By the way, I have noticed that on Watchbox website, they offer 2 years warranty to Journe watches. However I also do remember from a video they made, they said FPJ don't like third party touches their watches or would charge double when return to service.
In this case, if something goes wrong with the Journe's watch I buy within 2 years, return it, who service it? Anyone with real knowledge?

Watchbox is owned by Govberg who are official ADs for Journe so I bet they have a special arrangement with the FPJ factory for warranty work, especially since watchbox is manipulating the second hand market to increase perceived value for the brand.

[JR16]

Originally Posted by DoraTheExplorerII

Watchbox is owned by Govberg who are official ADs for Journe so I bet they have a special arrangement with the FPJ factory for warranty work, especially since watchbox is manipulating the second hand market to increase perceived value for the brand.

When I bought my last pre owned Journe from Watchbox I was told the warranty work was done by FPJ.


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[jnelson3097]

Originally Posted by ialienam

By the way, I have noticed that on Watchbox website, they offer 2 years warranty to Journe watches. However I also do remember from a video they made, they said FPJ don't like third party touches their watches or would charge double when return to service.
In this case, if something goes wrong with the Journe's watch I buy within 2 years, return it, who service it? Anyone with real knowledge?

All warranty work is sent back to FPJ and the costs are covered by Watchbox.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Exactly. From what I can tell FPJ takes it to an entirely new level even beyond Patek and ALS. For me I’m not that crazy about their dial designs but I’m just one opinion and I would have to sell half my collection just to buy one piece so that’s not going to happen.

I think FPJ has a rather singular position in that FP is still alive and very much steering the fortunes of the brand. As a result of this, the brand consists of the vision of one person and is hard to really classify in terms of watchmaking. What he thinks is important (innovative chronometry) they do very well, what he feels is just a chore (proper finishing) not so much.

At the core, all of the traditional big houses of high watchmaking essentially celebrate the „art de faire“ by finding more or less original ways to build watches that comply with the standards of flawless workmanship and finishing to the highest extent possible. And while that’s great to maintain the art and craft, the products are undeniably repetitive and do not translate into the pursuit of a particular engineering objective. In the end, it’s always the same calendars/chronographs/tourbillons/chiming watches/worldtimers, or any combination thereof. Other than the Zeitwerk, this approach has yielded very little true innovation, but as a customer, you know you’re buying the time of a person polishing angles with a handheld touret or, in the best cases, a bois de gentiane somewhere in the vicinity of the Lac de Joux or south of Dresden. In other words, you buy a piece of a century old labour of love that‘s somehow unbelievably valuable, wonderful and deserving of being maintained, despite it’s ultimate pointlessness.

FPJ on the other hand is entirely different in that respect. Rather than celebrating the steady hand of the person applying a flawless finish (which I would argue is acceptable but not FPJ‘s core strength), the brand is about realizing the more or less genius ideas of one of the very few truly great watchmakers of our time. Yes, not everything is perfect, like the inherently flawed concept of the centigraphe or the debatable merits of the resonance, but unlike the others, FPJ pursued clear objectives, tried to advance what we understand a watch‘s abilities to be and actually executed his concepts, whether or not in a quality that may rival the very best.

In the meantime, Patek made „inspired“ (using this very ironically here) things like a watch with handwriting on the dial, a nice but not world changing pusher system for dual time watches with awkward holes in the dial and a pilot’s watch with an alarm that might as well be a JLC, if not for the consistently outstanding quality of their execution. Lange made countless variations of the one good idea they had with the Zeitwerk, on an equally impressive level of quality and Vacheron did nothing original at all (with the possible exception of its last GPHG watch), but did that amazingly well.

On this basis, I would call the comparison apples to oranges and suggest that we just respect FPJ for who he is, without indulging in the pump and dump hype some outlets may or may not be fuelling, and without attempting to position his product among those of a range of other brands that are built according to an entirely different rulebook.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by lanteanflux

I don’t get why u keep saying this when it makes no sense and numbers don’t add up

WB currently lists 47 FPJ watches for sale, but only 35 from ALS. Of course, both these numbers are nothing to the 122 Pateks. So while I wouldn’t say the numbers don’t add up entirely, I believe what the numbers show is that there are less ALS watches out there than popular parlance would have you believe. I think it’s also a relatively fair observation that a high proportion of the total output of FPJ ends up on the secondary market. Patek makes over 60 times as many watches as FPJ, yet there are not even 3 times as many Patek listings WB as there are FPJ listings... the FPJ listings are all clearly pre owned and worn, so it’s not really a matter of pushing through AD stock either. The fact of the matter is that, unlike Patek dress watches, FPJ watches have clearly become an object in high demand (hype?), which encourages people to release what they have into the market.

[MrBlahBlah]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

I think FPJ has a rather singular position in that FP is still alive and very much steering the fortunes of the brand. As a result of this, the brand consists of the vision of one person and is hard to really classify in terms of watchmaking. What he thinks is important (innovative chronometry) they do very well, what he feels is just a chore (proper finishing) not so much.

At the core, all of the traditional big houses of high watchmaking essentially celebrate the „art de faire“ by finding more or less original ways to build watches that comply with the standards of flawless workmanship and finishing to the highest extent possible. And while that’s great to maintain the art and craft, the products are undeniably repetitive and do not translate into the pursuit of a particular engineering objective. In the end, it’s always the same calendars/chronographs/tourbillons/chiming watches/worldtimers, or any combination thereof. Other than the Zeitwerk, this approach has yielded very little true innovation, but as a customer, you know you’re buying the time of a person polishing angles with a handheld touret or, in the best cases, a bois de gentiane somewhere in the vicinity of the Lac de Joux or south of Dresden. In other words, you buy a piece of a century old labour of love that‘s somehow unbelievably valuable, wonderful and deserving of being maintained, despite it’s ultimate pointlessness.

FPJ on the other hand is entirely different in that respect. Rather than celebrating the steady hand of the person applying a flawless finish (which I would argue is acceptable but not FPJ‘s core strength), the brand is about realizing the more or less genius ideas of one of the very few truly great watchmakers of our time. Yes, not everything is perfect, like the inherently flawed concept of the centigraphe or the debatable merits of the resonance, but unlike the others, FPJ pursued clear objectives, tried to advance what we understand a watch‘s abilities to be and actually executed his concepts, whether or not in a quality that may rival the very best.

In the meantime, Patek made „inspired“ (using this very ironically here) things like a watch with handwriting on the dial, a nice but not world changing pusher system for dual time watches with awkward holes in the dial and a pilot’s watch with an alarm that might as well be a JLC, if not for the consistently outstanding quality of their execution. Lange made countless variations of the one good idea they had with the Zeitwerk, on an equally impressive level of quality and Vacheron did nothing original at all (with the possible exception of its last GPHG watch), but did that amazingly well.

On this basis, I would call the comparison apples to oranges and suggest that we just respect FPJ for who he is, without indulging in the pump and dump hype some outlets may or may not be fuelling, and without attempting to position his product among those of a range of other brands that are built according to an entirely different rulebook.

Wow, well said!

[Swaye]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

I think FPJ has a rather singular position in that FP is still alive and very much steering the fortunes of the brand. As a result of this, the brand consists of the vision of one person and is hard to really classify in terms of watchmaking. What he thinks is important (innovative chronometry) they do very well, what he feels is just a chore (proper finishing) not so much.

At the core, all of the traditional big houses of high watchmaking essentially celebrate the „art de faire“ by finding more or less original ways to build watches that comply with the standards of flawless workmanship and finishing to the highest extent possible. And while that’s great to maintain the art and craft, the products are undeniably repetitive and do not translate into the pursuit of a particular engineering objective. In the end, it’s always the same calendars/chronographs/tourbillons/chiming watches/worldtimers, or any combination thereof. Other than the Zeitwerk, this approach has yielded very little true innovation, but as a customer, you know you’re buying the time of a person polishing angles with a handheld touret or, in the best cases, a bois de gentiane somewhere in the vicinity of the Lac de Joux or south of Dresden. In other words, you buy a piece of a century old labour of love that‘s somehow unbelievably valuable, wonderful and deserving of being maintained, despite it’s ultimate pointlessness.

FPJ on the other hand is entirely different in that respect. Rather than celebrating the steady hand of the person applying a flawless finish (which I would argue is acceptable but not FPJ‘s core strength), the brand is about realizing the more or less genius ideas of one of the very few truly great watchmakers of our time. Yes, not everything is perfect, like the inherently flawed concept of the centigraphe or the debatable merits of the resonance, but unlike the others, FPJ pursued clear objectives, tried to advance what we understand a watch‘s abilities to be and actually executed his concepts, whether or not in a quality that may rival the very best.

In the meantime, Patek made „inspired“ (using this very ironically here) things like a watch with handwriting on the dial, a nice but not world changing pusher system for dual time watches with awkward holes in the dial and a pilot’s watch with an alarm that might as well be a JLC, if not for the consistently outstanding quality of their execution. Lange made countless variations of the one good idea they had with the Zeitwerk, on an equally impressive level of quality and Vacheron did nothing original at all (with the possible exception of its last GPHG watch), but did that amazingly well.

On this basis, I would call the comparison apples to oranges and suggest that we just respect FPJ for who he is, without indulging in the pump and dump hype some outlets may or may not be fuelling, and without attempting to position his product among those of a range of other brands that are built according to an entirely different rulebook.

This is a great post. I say this as an unabashed, but eyes wide open, FPJ fan.

[fmc000]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

In the meantime, Patek made „inspired“ (using this very ironically here) things like a watch with handwriting on the dial, a nice but not world changing pusher system for dual time watches with awkward holes in the dial and a pilot’s watch with an alarm that might as well be a JLC, if not for the consistently outstanding quality of their execution. Lange made countless variations of the one good idea they had with the Zeitwerk, on an equally impressive level of quality and Vacheron did nothing original at all (with the possible exception of its last GPHG watch), but did that amazingly well.

It seems that you missed that Patek released a few years ago a watch called "Grandmaster Chime" with an absolutely new complication that you probably would like to discover by yourself. Another hint: the same house release another absolutely new complication with regards to the world time technology.
Vacheron, in addition a "possible exception" you mentioned, have released the most complication watch ever made a couple of years ago if I'm not mistaken.
Lange, oh well, the Triple Split...

[Nikrnic]

Originally Posted by GB-man

As noted Watchbox is owned by govberg who is a large journe AD and a major player in the journe secondary market. I love FPJ watches but they too will fall hard in price by summer.

There you have it. Now I get it...

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[Swaye]

This thread needs a picture.

[Mr. Miami]

I just discovered this brand a few days ago from a video I saw online with Kevin O’Leary from shark tank. Last Saturday I started a thread about wanting a Patek, but I might have to reconsider now. Some of FP Journe dials are simply amazing. I personally like the Octa Lune LN G 42 A which is the moon phase with gold dial. The movement is beautiful. Highly considering this watch.

[ChaseATX]

Hype or not. They are awesome watches.


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[tomf1994]

I live local to the Govberg Ardmore location and stop in the store every so often. I've seen a bunch of the new FPJ watches they're selling. They are amazing watches in person. Forget ALS and Patek (which they also sell), FPJ is my money no option choice. They speak to me much louder than many other high end brands. Perhaps I should take them up on the quartz FPJ they keep pushing on me everytime I visit.

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[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by fmc000

It seems that you missed that Patek released a few years ago a watch called "Grandmaster Chime" with an absolutely new complication that you probably would like to discover by yourself. Another hint: the same house release another absolutely new complication with regards to the world time technology.
Vacheron, in addition a "possible exception" you mentioned, have released the most complication watch ever made a couple of years ago if I'm not mistaken.
Lange, oh well, the Triple Split...

My friend, I own a Lange and a Vacheron. You might not quite correctly have read out of my post which side of the form vs function preference I fall onto. But to follow your train of thought, do you really think the supercomplications you reference are the expression of an innovative vision that that would define the entire respective brand. The only instance where I would see that being mildly true is the triple split, but in terms of being repetitive, that one literally repeats a function we have known for decades three times. Yes, getting it to do that is super impressive, but it’s in essence just incrementally perfecting an existing ancillary feature into its most coherent expression, rather than truly pushing the core of the timing instrument itself to make it more accurate.

[rockdrock]

Originally Posted by BigAppleBill

^^What they said. More and more people are discovering and appreciating the quality, design, philosophy and relative rarity of FPJ watches. I also think a certain segment of watch enthusiasts appreciate a skilled manufacturer with integrity of purpose, which offers an alternative to more the well known, higher production houses.

You just described my story into Journe. I looked at Journe two years ago after being fed up with waitlists. Now, on waitlists again. But, the watches are just stunning. Big fan and can’t speak highly enough of them. Love the Miami boutique.


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[Mr. Miami]

Originally Posted by rockdrock

You just described my story into Journe. I looked at Journe two years ago after being fed up with waitlists. Now, on waitlists again. But, the watches are just stunning. Big fan and can’t speak highly enough of them. Love the Miami boutique.


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I plan on taking a trip to the boutique in Miami at some point after covid 19. I read an article about it and seems like it’s a great experience and atmosphere especially with the bar!

[rockdrock]

Originally Posted by Swaye

Excellent post.

Holy shit! I second this comment. That was a great post. I did not understand the 1 of three watchmakers for resonance, though.


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[subtona]

They do make exceptional watches.

Exhibit - A
Steel resonance. 1 of 38 pieces.

[rockdrock]

Originally Posted by Mr. Miami

I plan on taking a trip to the boutique in Miami at some point after covid 19. I read an article about it and seems like it’s a great experience and atmosphere especially with the bar!

So jealous! Pls go talk to Rocky. Dude is amazing. Never been to the store and never shaken his hand (yet) but he has helped me a lot on this journey.


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[rockdrock]

No addiction here.
Credit on Pro pics: Rocky from FPJ Miami Maison Boutique.


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[sgfortino]

Originally Posted by subtona

They do make exceptional watches.

Exhibit - A
Steel resonance. 1 of 38 pieces.

What an amazing piece! Enjoy the hell out of it!!

[ajw45]

Does it bother anyone that they stamp vs hand guilloche the patterned dials? That's something that has always bothered me as an odd shortcut/cost savings to take....

[Pongster]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

I think FPJ has a rather singular position in that FP is still alive and very much steering the fortunes of the brand. As a result of this, the brand consists of the vision of one person and is hard to really classify in terms of watchmaking. What he thinks is important (innovative chronometry) they do very well, what he feels is just a chore (proper finishing) not so much.

At the core, all of the traditional big houses of high watchmaking essentially celebrate the „art de faire“ by finding more or less original ways to build watches that comply with the standards of flawless workmanship and finishing to the highest extent possible. And while that’s great to maintain the art and craft, the products are undeniably repetitive and do not translate into the pursuit of a particular engineering objective. In the end, it’s always the same calendars/chronographs/tourbillons/chiming watches/worldtimers, or any combination thereof. Other than the Zeitwerk, this approach has yielded very little true innovation, but as a customer, you know you’re buying the time of a person polishing angles with a handheld touret or, in the best cases, a bois de gentiane somewhere in the vicinity of the Lac de Joux or south of Dresden. In other words, you buy a piece of a century old labour of love that‘s somehow unbelievably valuable, wonderful and deserving of being maintained, despite it’s ultimate pointlessness.

FPJ on the other hand is entirely different in that respect. Rather than celebrating the steady hand of the person applying a flawless finish (which I would argue is acceptable but not FPJ‘s core strength), the brand is about realizing the more or less genius ideas of one of the very few truly great watchmakers of our time. Yes, not everything is perfect, like the inherently flawed concept of the centigraphe or the debatable merits of the resonance, but unlike the others, FPJ pursued clear objectives, tried to advance what we understand a watch‘s abilities to be and actually executed his concepts, whether or not in a quality that may rival the very best.

In the meantime, Patek made „inspired“ (using this very ironically here) things like a watch with handwriting on the dial, a nice but not world changing pusher system for dual time watches with awkward holes in the dial and a pilot’s watch with an alarm that might as well be a JLC, if not for the consistently outstanding quality of their execution. Lange made countless variations of the one good idea they had with the Zeitwerk, on an equally impressive level of quality and Vacheron did nothing original at all (with the possible exception of its last GPHG watch), but did that amazingly well.

On this basis, I would call the comparison apples to oranges and suggest that we just respect FPJ for who he is, without indulging in the pump and dump hype some outlets may or may not be fuelling, and without attempting to position his product among those of a range of other brands that are built according to an entirely different rulebook.

Nice post.

For my own edification, what is wrong with the centrigraphe? Thats the second FPJ am targetting.

[tom2517]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

I think FPJ has a rather singular position in that FP is still alive and very much steering the fortunes of the brand. As a result of this, the brand consists of the vision of one person and is hard to really classify in terms of watchmaking. What he thinks is important (innovative chronometry) they do very well, what he feels is just a chore (proper finishing) not so much.

At the core, all of the traditional big houses of high watchmaking essentially celebrate the „art de faire“ by finding more or less original ways to build watches that comply with the standards of flawless workmanship and finishing to the highest extent possible. And while that’s great to maintain the art and craft, the products are undeniably repetitive and do not translate into the pursuit of a particular engineering objective. In the end, it’s always the same calendars/chronographs/tourbillons/chiming watches/worldtimers, or any combination thereof. Other than the Zeitwerk, this approach has yielded very little true innovation, but as a customer, you know you’re buying the time of a person polishing angles with a handheld touret or, in the best cases, a bois de gentiane somewhere in the vicinity of the Lac de Joux or south of Dresden. In other words, you buy a piece of a century old labour of love that‘s somehow unbelievably valuable, wonderful and deserving of being maintained, despite it’s ultimate pointlessness.

FPJ on the other hand is entirely different in that respect. Rather than celebrating the steady hand of the person applying a flawless finish (which I would argue is acceptable but not FPJ‘s core strength), the brand is about realizing the more or less genius ideas of one of the very few truly great watchmakers of our time. Yes, not everything is perfect, like the inherently flawed concept of the centigraphe or the debatable merits of the resonance, but unlike the others, FPJ pursued clear objectives, tried to advance what we understand a watch‘s abilities to be and actually executed his concepts, whether or not in a quality that may rival the very best.

In the meantime, Patek made „inspired“ (using this very ironically here) things like a watch with handwriting on the dial, a nice but not world changing pusher system for dual time watches with awkward holes in the dial and a pilot’s watch with an alarm that might as well be a JLC, if not for the consistently outstanding quality of their execution. Lange made countless variations of the one good idea they had with the Zeitwerk, on an equally impressive level of quality and Vacheron did nothing original at all (with the possible exception of its last GPHG watch), but did that amazingly well.

On this basis, I would call the comparison apples to oranges and suggest that we just respect FPJ for who he is, without indulging in the pump and dump hype some outlets may or may not be fuelling, and without attempting to position his product among those of a range of other brands that are built according to an entirely different rulebook.

I don’t think the traditional big houses are doing the highest finishing possible. Maybe the top end models but not most of the models, at least not compare to small indies.

[shafran]

because Danny Govberg and his associates loved Journe. They had taken positions in other brands that never panned out. Danny and George both wear Journe over other brands. I think its more of being in the right place at the right time. People want them and they were cheaper than comparable lange or patek, now they are not.