Rolex Authorised Dealer Collusion

[Giangos]

Each to their own and this applies to ADs as well as greys as well as individuals.

Can’t help thinking that they should make the best out of their own business circumstances and run a model to give themselves the best chance of success.

Is it too dissimilar to you leaving the country which presumably raised you and educated you for another country that gives you an opportunity to maximize your own profits via a favorable tax regime??

Who here is not a capitalist?


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[lkngshrp]

I know for a fact here in Toronto a certain AD sells to one of the grey dealers. I cannot post the details in public but I saw it in writing is all I can say...

[Sandpit]

Originally Posted by Giangos

Who here is not a capitalist?


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Well, these very same UK ADs are now being propped up by their government.

[Giangos]

Originally Posted by Sandpit

Well, these very same UK ADs are now being propped up by their government.

Well their own revered PM Winston Churchill said it best .....

And the government is not propping up ADs, or Ferrari dealerships. They are propping up the nations workers to stave off civil unrest. And that is happening in socialist and capitalist economies alike.



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[42itus]

I’ve had SA give me the company line about not selling to flippers. But I’ve also had an AD tell me that they don’t give a rip about what anyone does with their watch after it’s sold. This came up when I saw him selling 3 super hot models to one customer. I asked him how much of a VIP this guy is, and he told me around $200K a year. Then I said “I wonder why a big hitter like that wastes his time with SS” and my SA said that he doesn’t care if he is giving them away or selling them. He buys so much that he gets whatever he asks for.

I personally do not believe for one second that Rolex cares about this. Daytona trading for double retail is an ideal situation for them.


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[Rohan1806]

I'm relatively new to the watch game and an even newer member of this forum. I am curious about a few things and maybe some of the members can help me out:

1. Is it really all about AD greed? There are 100s of Rolex ADs across the world, how is it that we hear of very few positive interactions? I am assuming Rolex has an agreement with it's ADs to carry a host of different models. Some sell quickly, a lot don't (read pearl masters & PM models). What are the payment terms? If I was saddled with a bunch of slow moving inventory, I would have to resort to other means to make ends meet. Does Rolex need to re-evaluate it's model (keeping customer satisfaction in mind. We all know they are killing it financially)? How much of the responsibility falls on their shoulders?

2. If I'm a Rolex executive, my customer reviews are a click away with all the forums on the web. Have things (customer disatifaction) been this way for a long time? Has something like this happened before? Are the ultra high net worth individuals Rolex's primary customer base, thereby not really needing them to worry as much about clients that buy a watch once every few years, as opposed to 3 watches a year?According to wikipedia, there are 584,000 multi-millionaires (net asset > $10 million USD) worldwide & 226,000 ultra HNWIs (net assets > $30 million USD).

3. I am not trying to defend the Rolex ADs. I've visited plenty of them, and the experience has mostly been unsatisfactory. When I bought my Batman 3 years ago, the sales rep didn't so much as smile and say "congratulations". But I would put quite a bit of the onus on the parent company. The dealership network is the face of the company.

I'd love to hear others' thoughts on the matter.

[Nairn1980]

Originally Posted by Montremoi

Absolutely. Dodgy merchants, who're full of themselves on top of that, should be reported to Rolex with as many details as possible

It's not a one way street. (Would be) customers can also pressure the market in their own way, albeit with modest effects on the grand scheme of things. If enough malpractices are reported, a certain number of dealers might start to feel the heat.

Because Rolex will be SO shocked....
I fully believe they know this all goes on

[Ihatecheese]

Rolex's customer base is more the regular person who is marking an occasion or success. They're achievable luxury. Not focused on hnw or uhnw individuals. There are many other watch brands targeted towards that price point.

I always try to spend the minimal time in shops when purchasing products be it a Rolex or other similar priced items. I don't need them to blow smoke up my ass, rather than just help execute the sale.

All those small TT DJs probably prop up their books. Who needs the forum WIS ss hype!!!!

[Rohan1806]

Originally Posted by Ihatecheese

Rolex's customer base is more the regular person who is marking an occasion or success. They're achievable luxury. Not focused on hnw or uhnw individuals. There are many other watch brands targeted towards that price point.

I always try to spend the minimal time in shops when purchasing products be it a Rolex or other similar priced items. I don't need them to blow smoke up my ass, rather than just help execute the sale.

All those small TT DJs probably prop up their books. Who needs the forum WIS ss hype!!!!

If the regular person is their customer base, then I'd say they need to be doing more to ensure they have a better experience.

[Captain Scrumpy]

The best experience i’ve had has been with a small jeweler in UK Midlands called Rudells. Always helpful, polite and straightforward. Sadly I’ve recently been advised they have lost rolex (but retain PP - go figure).

Too many bad experiences with bigger Rolex ADs to mention, most characterized by snobbery, arrogance and a really unpleasant attitude of superiority.

I’ve had the ‘if you want this you need to buy that’ and the ‘you can view this but we cant sell it to you as retained for premium customers’. Worth adding that I have purchased 2 rolex and 2 tudor plus other items with one of these ADs over past 3 years.

I will never set foot in a Goldsmiths again; unless I feel a burning desire to be derided...

Why would anyone tolerate this? The hobby is meant to be fun!

Worth adding that I’ve been made to feel like a VIP in other boutiques, especially Omega. I know its just flattery but who doesn’t like free champagne?


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[Number3]

Originally Posted by Captain Scrumpy

The best experience i’ve had has been with a small jeweler in UK Midlands called Rudells. Always helpful, polite and straightforward. Sadly I’ve recently been advised they have lost rolex (but retain PP - go figure).

Too many bad experiences with bigger Rolex ADs to mention, most characterized by snobbery, arrogance and a really unpleasant attitude of superiority.

I’ve had the ‘if you want this you need to buy that’ and the ‘you can view this but we cant sell it to you as retained for premium customers’. Worth adding that I have purchased 2 rolex and 2 tudor plus other items with one of these ADs over past 3 years.

I will never set foot in a Goldsmiths again; unless I feel a burning desire to be derided...

Why would anyone tolerate this? The hobby is meant to be fun!

Worth adding that I’ve been made to feel like a VIP in other boutiques, especially Omega. I know its just flattery but who doesn’t like free champagne?


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This pretty much sums up my recent experiences with ADs. I for one would like to know who the AD was James - do they have the initials RG? If so I think I know the grey.....

[jimcameron]

Too many great watch brands out there to be a slave to one of them.

[Doch]

Originally Posted by jimcameron

Too many great watch brands out there to be a slave to one of them.

This,

The only way to stop this way of robbing of the customers, is to stop buying Rolex. Maybe this will get Rolex to actually treat the customers as... well customers and not idiots just waiting to have their money taken away.

Any other brand treating their customers like this -also outside the watch-scene, would be dead in no time.

[Harry-57]

Originally Posted by jamesthejeweller

No I don't think this would be an issue to sell readily available models at under MSRP if they were truly second hand; Grays used to represent the essence of what the collector and enthusiast market was all about; rare, under-appreciated, vintage,oddball, niche pieces that you couldn't get from ADs, and the world was fine with that.

That sounds like what I would call a used/vintage watch dealer. Not a grey. Although many stores in the jewellery trade deal in the grey market because it's a big slice of their bread and butter. A grey dealer, only trading grey goods is comparatively rare. Their goods are AD sourced and classically sell at below MSRP. They are not used. They are the stuff the ADs can't sell easily with some desirable stuff thrown in to facilitate it.

The only reason they are exploiting the Rolex supply situation is because the market is allowing them to. When people stop buying watches at above MSRP the grey Rolex market will deflate accordingly. You can't blame dealers for supplying them. They always have. It's how that part of the trade works. Voting with feet is the time honoured resource of the dissatisfied punter.

Flippers have risen exponentially, which is to be expected. The bottom feeders always know where to go for the best results. We may be angry with an AD for appearing to favour or encourage them, but again, it's their business, so we vote with our feet if we feel strongly enough. My AD has lost customers because they were thought to be supplying flippers and queue jumpers. They claim they were not. They believe that people who have never bought from them have acquired hot models through the grey market and bragged that their local AD gives them special treatment. Even if this was the case, the dealer has done nothing wrong, although my AD assures me that they are more interested in established customer loyalty than day traders and tourists. But you can seldom draw a hard line - except with individuals who are obviously trying to take the piss.

It seems that running a profitable business smartly is only acceptable as long as they are run on terms dictated by other people who (so far as can be ascertained) don't know how to run a profitable business.

[Greg 59]

It's somewhat ironic that within the last 48 hours there has been a flurry of YouTube videos talking about this very topic. A number of them directly reporting on a large consignment of Rolex watches being purchased from a well known Hong Kong AD and then immediately put on carousel which is an online marketplace across the far East. In addition the watches, still in there plastic shipping boxes were displayed in the shop window.
I guess if the AD receives a monthly allocation from Rolex and half of the watches are 28-34mm TT models that could potentially gather dust for the next 12 months there is a big incentive to just sell the entire job lot and be done with it. Easy money if you have the nerve.

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[brandrea]

I’ve never encountered this in my 30 odd years of ownership. I suppose there are good ADs and ones that aren’t.

Imho there is a place for both ADs and Gray dealers. Both serve a purpose.

[jamesthejeweller]

Originally Posted by Giangos

Each to their own and this applies to ADs as well as greys as well as individuals.

Can’t help thinking that they should make the best out of their own business circumstances and run a model to give themselves the best chance of success.

Is it too dissimilar to you leaving the country which presumably raised you and educated you for another country that gives you an opportunity to maximize your own profits via a favorable tax regime??

Who here is not a capitalist?


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Tax efficiency and profiteering are two very different things within business ethics, and I know that I'm on the right side of the moral and legal fence.

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[Harry-57]

Originally Posted by Sandpit

Well, these very same UK ADs are now being propped up by their government.

No UK AD is being propped up by the government. Employees are being supported so that they can keep a roof over their heads and food on their tables without running up massive debt. This is being done via employers, because they have all the payroll details and the admin structure necessary to prevent the government wasting resources by inventing the same wheel.

The UK government is not buying stakes in ADs to keep them afloat. It is giving them tax concessions, same as everybody is getting tax concessions. For business, these concessions are delays. Taxes are still due and will be collected. There will just be more time to pay. This is not unique to COVID-19. It happens for many reasons. This is why HMRC were able to roll it out instantly. It's a system they already use selectively. Now it's being used universally. For the time being.

Local councils are also waiving business rates, so that when sanctions start to be eased, there will actually be businesses in good enough shape to trade. This is not a COVID-19 innovation. Local councils modulate and waive business rates all the time, in the interests of the local economy. Local councils are not the government.

[Rohan1806]

I agree with Greg 59

[Giangos]

Originally Posted by jamesthejeweller

Tax efficiency and profiteering are two very different things within business ethics, and I know that I'm on the right side of the moral and legal fence.

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Sure, I have no issue with what you have done but I suspect that some others would. There has been an ongoing debate in Australia about athletes that have been educated and trained in our various sporting institutes only to turn pro and move to other countries with negligible income tax rates. Tennis players for instance. The same argument has been made against Air Force pilots trained with public money who then join private airlines. Legal? Yes. Moral, who is to say? The fact that it raises public debate tells me that morality is not a universally agreed upon phenomena. Just to prove this point, there were probably more responders here that did not find great fault in the practices of your AD, myself included.

The fact that it is within your moral compass and legal rights to ship off to a low tax haven and make the most from your hard work, so too does your AD have equal right to use their own smarts to maximize their own business opportunities.

For the record, I run my own business that pays a small fortune annually in taxes. I too try to minimize the amount of tax paid within the legal framework we are provided. I know how challenging business is and I do not begrudge an AD that legally makes money, even if my own feelings are hurt along the way.

Best of luck in to you OP in these trying times.


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[Giangos]

Originally Posted by Harry-57

No UK AD is being propped up by the government. Employees are being supported so that they can keep a roof over their heads and food on their tables without running up massive debt. This is being done via employers, because they have all the payroll details and the admin structure necessary to prevent the government wasting resources by inventing the same wheel.

The UK government is not buying stakes in ADs to keep them afloat. It is giving them tax concessions, same as everybody is getting tax concessions. For business, these concessions are delays. Taxes are still due and will be collected. There will just be more time to pay. This is not unique to COVID-19. It happens for many reasons. This is why HMRC were able to roll it out instantly. It's a system they already use selectively. Now it's being used universally. For the time being.

Local councils are also waiving business rates, so that when sanctions start to be eased, there will actually be businesses in good enough shape to trade. This is not a COVID-19 innovation. Local councils modulate and waive business rates all the time, in the interests of the local economy. Local councils are not the government.

Perfect summary.


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[Harry-57]

Originally Posted by Rohan1806

Is it really all about AD greed? There are 100s of Rolex ADs across the world, how is it that we hear of very few positive interactions?

Because it is the nature of the internet.

A happy customer might thank the AD, contact the owner to express their thanks, or more probably, just happily wander away and enjoy their watch.

A disgruntled customer (or unsuccessful customer) who is angry will be motivated to shout and vent. The internet is a gift for this. I've done it myself.

You also have to factor in people campaigning for dealers. My dog could be typing this. I might be an AD posing as a delighted customer. I could be lying through my teeth. I might not own a Rolex. I might never have set foot in a dealer. You just don't know. That's the internet for you.

My local AD and I have a friendly, long standing relationship. I know the owner, the shop manager, the Rolex buyer, the department manager and all the SAs. We have bought miscellaneous things from them for 25 years, mostly not watches. They've been fair to me, sometimes going the extra mile, and never less than 100% professional.

They and I are realists and we both run businesses. We have an understanding of how the world works. If I thought they had stiffed me I would have told them so and found another AD. If anything, they've helped me and shown consideration when possible. It's not always possible.

I don't poke my nose into how they run their business. That's their business. You can usually spot a cowboy. It might take time but the truth will always out. My AD are not cowboys, or cowgirls. Even if I posted this every day, it is the nature of the internet that it would pass unnoticed for the most part. But if I had a beef and started ranting, it would be amplified and reposted.

[Harry-57]

Originally Posted by Giangos

Perfect summary.


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Ta

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Rocco21

I say out every AD that operates this way.I personally don’t care for ADs period and haven’t for years as they think their —— don’t stink.Most know —— all about Rolex and couldn’t sell anything.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Swiss Mad!

No.3: Did a Rolex AD REALLY tell you they were working hand in hand with a grey dealer and they had so much hold over said grey dealer that they could actually instruct/prevent them from selling you a watch????

Im sorry OP, I dont want to disbelieve what your saying but that sounds like something straight out of a movie scene & pure fantasy on the part of the AD's SA

Even if they were working alongside a grey, they would want to keep it on the lo lo, so I would be extremely surprised if they openly admitted it to a potential customer.

Have to agree today there is much complete bullsh~te posted on many watch forums without proper authenticated proof.And indeed many posters post pure attention seeking fantasy much like most of the tripe on these so called social media sites.

[77T]

Originally Posted by padi56

Have to agree today there is much complete bullsh~te posted on many watch forums without proper authenticated proof.And indeed many posters post pure attention seeking fantasy much like most of the tripe on these so called social media sites.

So true...


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[horseShu]

I can imagine this is all part of the "status" of owning one.

When I show people that I have a hot, nigh-unobtainable SS model, I'm not only showing off a Rolex watch on my wrist. I'm showing that I'm potentially a hot shot guy with the connections.

But who's to know. I could've bought it at an eye-watering premium from a grey dealer. And I'm just lying to everybody that I got it from an AD at MSRP coz I'm such a hotshot.

These mind games are all part of the unique ownership experience that is Rolex.

It's not unique. This is almost identical to the Birkin bag experience of women.

[crowatch]

Originally Posted by kieselguhr

5 years ago, this “gray dealer collusion” was the only way these ADs could survive because the same people complaining about it today prefered to buy at huge discounts from the very same “evil gray dealers” you speak of rather than buy new at an AD.

this. went to many passed threads and i cannot count how many times i saw when a new member asks for advice on AD and he is immediatelly steared to "trusted sellers" where he/she can get a discount.

[jamesthejeweller]

Originally Posted by padi56

Have to agree today there is much complete bullsh~te posted on many watch forums without proper authenticated proof.And indeed many posters post pure attention seeking fantasy much like most of the tripe on these so called social media sites.

I have no incentive to fabricate my experience, nor am I looking for validation, opening a dialogue about this issue was my primary goal, but you have successfully met my expectations of polar attitudes seen on the "so called social media sites" that you mention.

As a community I thought TRF was above personally attacking members, allowing room for forthright debate and prejudice free conversation.

Take from this thread what you like, but don't impugn the validity of this argument with your speculations about the source, when we all recognise and know this type of AD:Gray behavior exists

J

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[Rohan1806]

Well said!

Originally Posted by Greg 59

It's somewhat ironic that within the last 48 hours there has been a flurry of YouTube videos talking about this very topic. A number of them directly reporting on a large consignment of Rolex watches being purchased from a well known Hong Kong AD and then immediately put on carousel which is an online marketplace across the far East. In addition the watches, still in there plastic shipping boxes were displayed in the shop window.
I guess if the AD receives a monthly allocation from Rolex and half of the watches are 28-34mm TT models that could potentially gather dust for the next 12 months there is a big incentive to just sell the entire job lot and be done with it. Easy money if you have the nerve.

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Originally Posted by Harry-57

Because it is the nature of the internet.

A happy customer might thank the AD, contact the owner to express their thanks, or more probably, just happily wander away and enjoy their watch.

A disgruntled customer (or unsuccessful customer) who is angry will be motivated to shout and vent. The internet is a gift for this. I've done it myself.

You also have to factor in people campaigning for dealers. My dog could be typing this. I might be an AD posing as a delighted customer. I could be lying through my teeth. I might not own a Rolex. I might never have set foot in a dealer. You just don't know. That's the internet for you.

My local AD and I have a friendly, long standing relationship. I know the owner, the shop manager, the Rolex buyer, the department manager and all the SAs. We have bought miscellaneous things from them for 25 years, mostly not watches. They've been fair to me, sometimes going the extra mile, and never less than 100% professional.

They and I are realists and we both run businesses. We have an understanding of how the world works. If I thought they had stiffed me I would have told them so and found another AD. If anything, they've helped me and shown consideration when possible. It's not always possible.

I don't poke my nose into how they run their business. That's their business. You can usually spot a cowboy. It might take time but the truth will always out. My AD are not cowboys, or cowgirls. Even if I posted this every day, it is the nature of the internet that it would pass unnoticed for the most part. But if I had a beef and started ranting, it would be amplified and reposted.