Relumed PCG 1675 dial

[pteryx]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

What was the asking price of this 1675? I’m just trying to understand the damage monetarily.

I do find it fascinating that everyone here is ok with a relume, so long as it is ‘disclosed’. It’s not okay, because as it filters through the relume absolutely will not get disclosed. The reality is that there is another 1675 with a piece of shite dial floating around that looks great to most people. Damage done

If I recall it was in the order of USD 80k+

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[swaini3]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

I do find it fascinating that everyone here is ok with a relume, so long as it is ‘disclosed’. It’s not okay, because as it filters through the relume absolutely will not get disclosed.

Nothing wrong with a relume if it was disclosed.... then its it up to the buyer to decide if the price is worth the watch. The main issue here (so far) is that it was sold as "all original" which is dishonest. Well, so far that is until we hear from the ones involved.

[SubKing]

I have never met Michael Morgan in person. I always thought him to be an older guy when he first came into the scene, But I believe he is very young, still in last year of college. I can say he has had some very serious watches and has made quite the business for himself at a very young age. Seems he would have started this business out of high school? He really started with some serious pieces..

Not that I have a problem with younger people getting into the biz, I just think it’s something to be considered when purchasing 100k+ watches from someone who hasn’t been in the game for very long at all. He kind of just appeared one day and with the level of pieces he dealt with I just assumed he has been around for awhile..

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I have never met Michael Morgan in person. I always thought him to be an older guy when he first came into the scene, But I believe he is very young, still in last year of college. I can say he has had some very serious watches and has made quite the business for himself at a very young age. Seems he would have started this business out of high school? He really started with some serious pieces..

Not that I have a problem with younger people getting into the biz, I just think it’s something to be considered when purchasing 100k+ watches from someone who hasn’t been in the game for very long at all. He kind of just appeared one day and with the level of pieces he dealt with I just assumed he has been around for awhile..

This actually helps explain the vague and meandering "about" page at his website. If what you say is correct, that he is a senior in college (putting him at about 22), then his claim of having been in vintage since 2006 is comedy gold. Either his start in vintage at 8 years old is an example of him stretching the truth or we are basically looking at the Doogie Howser of the watch world.

I am eager to hear his version of events here. I hope he checks in. Fascinating thread!

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

This actually helps explain the vague and meandering "about" page at his website. If what you say is correct, that he is a senior in college (putting him at about 22), then his claim of having been in vintage since 2006 is comedy gold. Either his start in vintage at 8 years old is an example of him stretching the truth or we are basically looking at the Doogie Howser of the watch world.

I am eager to hear his version of events here. I hope he checks in. Fascinating thread!

I don’t know if it’s out of line posting photos of him, but he is young and yes he would have been about 8 years old if you follow his own information/timeline of when he began collecting and dealing.

I have even confirmed this is his identity from a watch dealer dinner that bobs watches had and MM was there, same kid was at the table amongst some very well known collectors/dealers. He is this young 100%

Today everything is done via email and dm.. So a lot of smoke and mirrors. Really actually very impressive what he has created for himself at his age. Pushing aside recent events.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

This actually helps explain the vague and meandering "about" page at his website. If what you say is correct, that he is a senior in college (putting him at about 22), then his claim of having been in vintage since 2006 is comedy gold. Either his start in vintage at 8 years old is an example of him stretching the truth or we are basically looking at the Doogie Howser of the watch world.

I am eager to hear his version of events here. I hope he checks in. Fascinating thread!

Michael started at a very young age. I don’t know exactly how old he is but he has been a member here since 2010 and started his IG (where he deals watches) in 2012 if that says something. He deals in very impressive pieces and his knowledge level is very high. Overall he has been around for a long time and he is well-known and respected in the community. Let’s see what he has to say eventually.

If I understood watchknut correctly he offered the piece to someone earlier and disclosed the relume. Then I have a tough time thinking he wouldn’t disclose it later when he sold it to Stephane. But who knows..

Originally Posted by watchknut

I learned last night from a collector in Asia that his friend was offered the watch in August by MM with an enhanced dial and it was not sold.

[btinl]

Originally Posted by roh123

Michael started at a very young age. I don’t know how old he is but he has been a member here since 2010 if that says something. He deals in very impressive pieces and his knowledge level is very high. Overall he has been around for a long time and he is well-known and respected in the community. Let’s see what he has to say eventually.

If I understood watchknut correctly he offered the piece to someone earlier and disclosed the relume. Then I have a tough time thinking he wouldn’t disclose it later when he sold it to Stephane. But who knows..

It’s not clear to me from that statement that the dial enhancement was disclosed.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by btinl

It’s not clear to me from that statement that the dial enhancement was disclosed.

That’s how I read it but you are right. Let’s see how this unfolds.

[SubKing]

Here’s the problem, if I think of my first watch then yes, you could say I was a collector at 8 years old when I began collecting Mickey Mouse watches.. that doesn’t mean he was an expert or Rolex authority at age 8. I feel his site is a bit misleading on that fact.

Not that I have a problem with his age per say, I just want to know who I am buying from and exactly how long they have been a Rolex expert if I’m spending 100k or more with them is all.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Here’s the problem, if I think of my first watch then yes, you could say I was a collector at 8 years old when I began collecting Mickey Mouse watches.. that doesn’t mean he was an expert or Rolex authority at age 8. I feel his site is a bit misleading on that fact.

Exactly; that is my point more than was it a judgment on his age. That the about page premise is both vague and exaggerated sets a certain tone or expectation. That page's purpose is branding.

[Kingface66]

This is a slippery slope you’re heading down. As someone who’s seen first-hand what conjecture, assumptions, and unfounded conclusions about a person by people who don’t know all the facts can result in, it never ends well. Reputations and livelihoods can suffer from this sort of thing.

[tommy.crown]

After reading this thread, it motivated me to create an account.

I for one am very concerned with how everything is going. Not just with MM, but with the whole pre-owned/vintage market as a whole. We see too many independent dealers (mostly here in California, USA) putting together these hail marry attempts to score big. And I'm not only talking about no-name independent dealers; we have seen in the recent past TRF threads documenting TropicalWatches for false descriptions, HQ Milton threads on what constitutes "excellent condition", Horology House's Daytona, and now MM. I'm sure there are many more. This is all very concerning.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by tommy.crown

After reading this thread, it motivated me to create an account.

I for one am very concerned with how everything is going. Not just with MM, but with the whole pre-owned/vintage market as a whole. We see too many independent dealers (mostly here in California, USA) putting together these hail marry attempts to score big. And I'm not only talking about no-name independent dealers; we have seen in the recent past TRF threads documenting TropicalWatches for false descriptions, HQ Milton threads on what constitutes "excellent condition", Horology House's Daytona, and now MM. I'm sure there are many more. This is all very concerning.

I agree 100%; this is terrible for the market generally, not just individuals.

The vintage market blew up...its heyday was legendary. The OG vintage guys lived it and would love it back. The newer school wants to recreate it. But the heyday was in part a perfect storm that involved critical timing..."barn finds" weren't actually all that old; finding good condition or amazing vintage pieces was easier because 1. it was the beginning of people looking so hard for them and 2. oils, gaskets, etc. were 20-30 years younger than they are now. What was once an "incredible discovery" is now a "great story" or a "project watch" or a "parts watch." What was once "wound and runs perfectly" has now been breached over time and has water damage at worst or needs parts replaced urgently at best.

The new/modern Rolex market is manipulated scarcity that inflates risk and price, while the vintage market is actual scarcity that inflates risk and price. Choose wisely, as they say.

This could probably be a separate thread, though, so I'll stop there.

[Filipão]

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100006454399040

[Filipão]

https://www.facebook.com/iconicwatch...2S1HaVjBPGpV3w

[swish77]

I would humbly suggest taking a step back here before all facts are known.

It's possible that MM has done nothing wrong in this case, but here we have people convicting him, ripping his IG/Facebook descriptions apart, questioning how he was able to start at such a young age, using this one case as an example of all things evil in the world of vintage watch collecting, etc .... It's not right.

If he did something wrong, and it's proved, he should be held 100 precent accountable. If he didn't, and it turns out he fully disclosed that this GMT had been relumed, then he's owed an apology by several people on this thread, including by the OP.

I've dealt with Michael several times through the years, and purchased from him three times (still own one of those watches.) He has a stellar reputation through countless sales in the business, so it seems reckless to indict him over this one case that is still filled with foggy details, IMHO.

[TimeToGo]

Originally Posted by SubKing

John, I'm pretty sure you were the lead instigator in that thread bashing Shear. You probably even went back to just re read it...

The fact that you even pull that out of thin air just to send me a nasty message when this thread clearly has nothing to do with Shear, goes to show just how you are.


Get a life man.

And like that Frozen song goes.. "let it goo let it gooo"...

Wow, sounds like you are into Disney movies now. That's about your level. Still thinking about the so called unpolished watch...

[SubKing]

Back on topic or does timetogo and springer want to keep turning this thread into a shit show? Let me know.

[swaini3]

.

[tellis]

Originally Posted by swish77

I would humbly suggest taking a step back here before all facts are known.

It's possible that MM has done nothing wrong in this case, but here we have people convicting him, ripping his IG/Facebook descriptions apart, questioning how he was able to start at such a young age, using this one case as an example of all things evil in the world of vintage watch collecting, etc .... It's not right.

If he did something wrong, and it's proved, he should be held 100 precent accountable. If he didn't, and it turns out he fully disclosed that this GMT had been relumed, then he's owed an apology by several people on this thread, including by the OP.

I second this motion

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by swish77

I would humbly suggest taking a step back here before all facts are known.

It's possible that MM has done nothing wrong in this case, but here we have people convicting him, ripping his IG/Facebook descriptions apart, questioning how he was able to start at such a young age, using this one case as an example of all things evil in the world of vintage watch collecting, etc .... It's not right.

If he did something wrong, and it's proved, he should be held 100 precent accountable. If he didn't, and it turns out he fully disclosed that this GMT had been relumed, then he's owed an apology by several people on this thread, including by the OP.

I've dealt with Michael several times through the years, and purchased from him three times (still own one of those watches.) He has a stellar reputation through countless sales in the business, so it seems reckless to indict him over this one case that is still filled with foggy details, IMHO.

We may never know the full facts, MM may not comment about this. What we do know that has been confirmed is that a watch was sold as something it wasn't and has been uncovered. The buyer is now getting his money back which is great. I think everything else is just natural conjecture. It has made many including myself take a closer look at details I might have otherwise overlooked in the past is all.

They have currently both been banned from the RPM which isn't a good sign. I can't find them on the dealers page anymore.

I don't think anyone here is certainly out to get the man. As a small community of a delicate hobby, it's hard not to talk about it while waiting for a response that may or may not come.

If it's cleared up and this is all a misunderstanding I'm sure this thread will be quickly deleted.

[Kingface66]

Well....It appears the watch is back

https://rolexpassionmarket.com/watch...-full-package/

[narembeen]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

Well....It appears the watch is back

https://rolexpassionmarket.com/watch...-full-package/

My 5513 has an outer box like that! Nice!

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

Well....It appears the watch is back

https://rolexpassionmarket.com/watch...-full-package/

With the same blacklight photo included three times.

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

Well....It appears the watch is back

https://rolexpassionmarket.com/watch...-full-package/

What a beautiful dial and hands, particularly under the glow light. No mention of ... the ... uh ... well... hm ...

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

Well....It appears the watch is back

https://rolexpassionmarket.com/watch...-full-package/

That’s strange Stephane Still isn’t showing up on dealer page.
Do you think this could be the old listing that was just never taken down/updated?

[Tavli3]

Having just read through the whole thread I find it disconcerting to think that so called pillars of the vintage community are involved in this sort of debacle. And there's a couple of ways to look at this, from a buyers point of view my issue is squarely with Stephane and not MM. To me as a buyer its irrelevant what MM did or did not disclose to Stephane. I as a buyer am relying on Stephane's reputation and more so his expertise to sell me a watch that is what it's stated to be and not something else. So I think the best people to judge whether this was an honest mistake on Stephane's part or that he should have and most likely knew the dial was a relume would be the experts and dealers on this thread.
The relume was certainly done by a person of the highest skill set. And as a novice when I see a dial that perfect on a watch of that age it scares me and should most certainly have made Stephane skeptical at the very least.

As for MM he had the watch relumed but was not the one claiming it to be all original, as far as I can tell and not the one who sold it to a pedestrian buyer. The question then becomes was he obligated to tell Stephane being that Stepahne is and experienced expert? And if the relume wasn't disclosed does Stephane get a pass cause the relume was so good that even an expert could be fooled by it? If so the blame then falls back to MM.

Unfortunately without knowing what was said or not said between MM and Stephane it's next to impossible to come to any legitimate conclusions. It would be nice for the community if this was settled but in any case one or both parties is going to end up with a black eye and it might just never be settled and turn out to be a he said she said situation with fingers pointing in both directions.

Final thoughts, why has Stephane not taken down his ad for the watch and has anybody questioned whether the insert is original? Not taking the ad down and not adding the fact that the dial is a relume makes it seem that he is trying to sell it to another unsuspecting buyer. Circumstantial evidence not in Stephane's favor.

[swaini3]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Do you think this could be the old listing that was just never taken down/updated?

Possibly, I have inquired a few times about watches that turned out to be sold.

[fmc000]

Originally Posted by SubKing

That’s strange Stephane Still isn’t showing up on dealer page.

Do you think this could be the old listing that was just never taken down/updated?

Looks like the ad was taken down.


Inviato dal mio SM-T719 utilizzando Tapatalk

[1675-David]

Aside from all the controversy that’s a very nice relume!! If anyone cares to share the contact details of the person who carried out the work shoot me a pm.