32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by padi56

like quite a few in this thread you are already obsessed, and many times obsession can be the downfall, and ruination of enjoying and owning one of the finest accurate mechanical watches made today.

Peter,
I am NOT obsessed. I am interested in the findings being made and calcuations.

If anything the results that are slowly coming through clearly show what a good movement the 32xx is and haw precise and steadily it runs until the PR runs low. Errors then are to be fully expected but are nevertheless interesting.

There is also the point of research.

The 32xx movements seem to have a strangege power fluctuation at around the 1/2 power stage.
This is odd and unexplained so far.
I am trying to see what is causing this and if it happens in all planes of running.

It is also interesting to see if the PR is the same in all planes.

This, as you call it Obsession, is only increasing my admirationration for a great time keeper.

I will as soon as the PR depletes join the others by posting up here my latest readings for all to see and admire.

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by Liga

If it reads incorrectly with amplitude, how reliable is the more important Seconds per Day Reading?????

Personally I do not trust the phone based apps but it is easy to reason that s/d, being something directly measured, could be accurate while amplitude, being extrapolated and estimated, could be off. That said, I'm not suggesting the flip flop of horizontal and vertical magnitudes is reasonable.

In testing with my weishi 1000 there seems to be no logic in the machine to detect "wrap around" errors. For example, when amplitude gets extremely low, like 130 degrees, it'll sometimes start reporting 300+ degrees. Clearly this is a bug in their look up table code, but the s/d is still showing valid numbers given its direct measurement that doesn't require a look up or translation. The machine's specs indicate it doesn't go as low as 130, but it would be a better user experience to display --- or something as compared to a nonsense number.

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[Omarion07]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

Peter,
I am NOT obsessed. I am interested in the findings being made and calcuations.

If anything the results that are slowly coming through clearly show what a good movement the 32xx is and haw precise and steadily it runs until the PR runs low. Errors then are to be fully expected but are nevertheless interesting.

There is also the point of research.

The 32xx movements seem to have a strangege power fluctuation at around the 1/2 power stage.
This is odd and unexplained so far.
I am trying to see what is causing this and if it happens in all planes of running.

It is also interesting to see if the PR is the same in all planes.

This, as you call it Obsession, is only increasing my admirationration for a great time keeper.

I will as soon as the PR depletes join the others by posting up here my latest readings for all to see and admire.

Keep doing what you're doing Charles. Really enjoy learning more about how the movement behaves. Does the precision get affected after the power reserve is half depleted?

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Omarion07

Keep doing what you're doing Charles. Really enjoy learning more about how the movement behaves. Does the precision get affected after the power reserve is half depleted?

Agreed. Charles does not measure precision, but rates, amplitudes, beat errors, and timekeeping.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Omarion07

Keep doing what you're doing Charles. Really enjoy learning more about how the movement behaves. Does the precision get affected after the power reserve is half depleted?

All mechanical movements are affected slightly in precision by the power reserve in the mainspring no matter the brand.

[Omarion07]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Agreed. Charles does not measure precision, but rates, amplitudes, beat errors, and timekeeping.

I'm relatively new to this, but is good time keeping not the equivalent of good precision?

[Omarion07]

Originally Posted by padi56

All mechanical movements are affected slightly in precision by the power reserve in the mainspring no matter the brand.

But does that matter if you're wearing the watch constantly? Since the movement is automatic.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Omarion07

I'm relatively new to this, but is good time keeping not the equivalent of good precision?

Not at all. I suggest you search for the difference between accuracy and precision.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Omarion07

Keep doing what you're doing Charles. Really enjoy learning more about how the movement behaves. Does the precision get affected after the power reserve is half depleted?

I am currently monitoring on the 6Up position.
The watch has run for over 66 hours now .. Everything was really good and timekeeping was spot on untilil about 42 yours. Thats over 1/2 the PR

the recordings I am doing now are a bit pointless as they are all over the placece. but Ill finish the job i started.

Then the timing started to go off a bit. Now its not good at all.

I reckon my watch has about 6 yours to go until a full stop. Thats also something I am measuring.

I will post up here in a few hoursrs the data from this timing test.

The next test will be 9Up.

[Omarion07]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Not at all. I suggest you search for the difference between accuracy and precision.

Thank you. So basically good timekeeping is equivalent to good accuracy and precision. This explains why Rolex uses the term precision rather than accuracy.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by padi56

All mechanical movements are affected slightly in precision by the power reserve in the mainspring no matter the brand.

Yes, but .... It is interesting to ME and some others when the timekeeping "Goes off" and what difference the Plane has.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Omarion07

Thank you. So basically good timekeeping is equivalent to good accuracy and precision. This explains why Rolex uses the term precision rather than accuracy.

The difference between the two is subtle and is often slightly confusing.

You have to think of things in a scientific or technical way not just a casual way.

[Driver8]

Originally Posted by Omarion07

Keep doing what you're doing Charles. Really enjoy learning more about how the movement behaves.

Agreed.

I know some seem to have a strong dislike of this thread (although I suspect that may strangely change if all of the feedback was glowingly positive) but personally I think it’s invaluable information. Even if we don’t get into the more technical aspects such as lift angles, and keep it as simple as just monitoring the timekeeping against a known reference for a while, then it’s interesting and valuable information concerning movement performance. As far as I can tell everything has been objective (both good and bad) and based on personal experience and observation.

I take my hat off to Saxo3 and other regular posters for keeping this one alive.

[CharlesN]

This is what my Timegrapher is showing at the moment.



My watch has been running for 68.5 hours and is clearly running out of power now.


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[CharlesN]

I have finally finished the series of tests I was running
My watch ran untouched or wound etc for a total of ...
71 Hours. 30 mins. 12 seconds

That’s fine as Rolex state it should be 70 hours

Unfortunately the last 20 hours timekeeping was not great but the power was running downs that is what was expected.

My watch has already started the next test ....... the same as this but this time with 9Up.

Here are my results for the entire 71 hour test with my watch at 6Up.




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[saxo3]

The following graph displays and compares the data taken by CharlesN in DU and 6U positions.

All measurements were done after full movement winding until the end of the power reserve.

His Submariner 126610 was purchased in 09/2020.

[csaltphoto]

I don't really have a dog in this fight given I don't own a watch with a 32xx movement.

But doesn't a watch typically speed up as the amplitude decreases? Which I suppose makes this issue more mysterious.

[CharlesN]

I am currently (The 70 hours will end this evening) doing a 9Up set of readings
They are not yet on a Graph, They are on my list.
But from that the PR amplitude seems to have similar traits.
Wait for the graph which is done by saxo3 to be posted and we will all see.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

The difference between the two is subtle and is often slightly confusing.

You have to think of things in a scientific or technical way not just a casual way.

Hi Charles.

It’s not really confusing.

If I have a watch that is precisely 10 seconds fast each and every day.

That is excellent precision.

The accuracy 70 seconds fast/week.

That is poor accuracy.

For me.


E.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Andad

It’s not really confusing.
E.

You Got It !

Ane well explained as well.

[suux88]

dislike noisy ball bearings

[CharlesN]

I found the loose ball bearings were not the source of the noises
I found that the sound of the mice working away to keep the power running were far too noisy


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[CharlesN]

Finally !!!! It took 71 Hours 17 Mins and 34 Secs. And I have the 9Up Amplitude data.

So here it is. Lots of interesting stuff here ......




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[saxo3]

Graph displays and compares the data taken by CharlesN in DU, 6U, 9U positions.



- Submariner 126610 (3235) purchased in 09/2020.

- Data taken after full movement winding until the end of the power reserve.

- Large amplitude variations after 63h are not shown.

- Remarkable: the discontinuity of the curves, i.e. the amplitude jumps, are not measurement errors, abrupt transitions can be smoothed by taking more measurement data.

[CharlesN]

In case anyone is worried, You have no need to .......

I have already started the same 3 day power reserve test with my watch in the 3Up position

Of course a copy of my results will follow in about 71 hours


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[CharlesN]

It is quite interesting how similar the curve is in the graph between the various positions

As I just said in my previous post I have started the 3Up measuring cycle and after that I will complete the set by doing a set of figures in the Dial Down position

That final set will only be finished in 6 days time


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[CharlesN]

OOPPSS. !!
Sorry all. It looks like the list of my readings and observations got “Cut Short”

I don’t want any of you to feel deprived of the full information so here it is again (Hopefully this time it will all show)




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[Michael N Q8]

Interesting, maybe someone can explain the spike in amplitude at the 65 hour point. Is this actual or an error? I know my app gives excessive numbers, but this is from a proper machine.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Michael N Q8

Interesting, maybe someone can explain the spike in amplitude at the 65 hour point. Is this actual or an error? I know my app gives excessive numbers, but this is from a proper machine.

Michael
So far there is NO explanation
That is partly why I am going through the entire 5 position monitoring and reporting.

I am thinking that it might be as simple as a lubrication issue. If the spring is somehow “Binding” these results might be possible

Testing in all 5 planes might show this up with easing in 2 positions.

But ....... Don’t hold your breath. Nothing is proven yet and may never be.

The fun is in the trying to find the problem.

(Ps. Have you ordered your Timegrapher yet ? )

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Michael N Q8

Interesting, maybe someone can explain the spike in amplitude at the 65 hour point. Is this actual or an error? I know my app gives excessive numbers, but this is from a proper machine.

Hi Michael,

The spike in amplitude towards the end of the PR is real and not an error.

Charles has observed that (with his timegrapher) for DU, 6U, and 9U positions "but" with a rather low time resolution.

The graphs which I provided (for him) did not show the last few data points (with strongly increasing amplitudes).

Amplitude drops and rises are a real effect for my SD43 (3235).

I have monitored that with a (professional) instrument using a very high sampling rate (one data point every 30 s) from t = 0 to 72 hours.

I have no explanation what causes the effect in the 3235 (and will also not speculate) but can give a representative measurement example below.




Sea-Dweller 126600 (3235) power reserve test after full winding, in 6U position, measured under controlled conditions (stable temperature and watch position all time at rest). The 3235 stopped running after 71 h 18 min.

The result is very positive for my 3235 movement: the PR is at least 64 hours.

After 64 hours (in 6U position all time) the rate was still + 1 s/d at a very low amplitude of 140 degrees.

Approaching an amplitude of 120 degrees only, the 3235 movement enters a very unstable regime. 120 degrees is still well above my timegrapher limit of min. 80 degrees in amplitude.