Girls Coffeeshop Talk

[Lisa]

I'm beginning to think you've gone a little buggy....

[FeelingTheBlues]

Originally Posted by Lisa

I'm beginning to think you've gone a little buggy....

A little arachnid rather...

Although the grasshopper is harder to forget, I almost miss the little...bugger!

[threemonkeys]

Originally Posted by FeelingTheBlues

Here's another little thing for you guys (boy am I loud tonight...), I was on my computer a few minutes before going upstairs to prepare my pizza for supper (we all make our own and eat it together, quite a nice thing to make if you ask me! ) when I felt a funny sensation on my arm, kind of like a little something moving my arm hair. I took a closer look and found this little baby!



Pictures aren't clear at all but it is a yellow spiderling (the baby of those ugly yellow house spiders you see everywhere), I must admit I found it very cute (I've developped a passion for tarantulas but alas house spiders don't impress me that much...besides that one, that is! ).

Here it is after I let it walk on the wall.



And with the Rolex! After all, it is a watch forum!



...Now my mother is sure I'm crazy!

Originally Posted by FeelingTheBlues

A little arachnid rather...

Although the grasshopper is harder to forget, I almost miss the little...bugger!

Oh, Carl...yeah...um...I thought I would find you here.

Just saying, my friend.

[FeelingTheBlues]

Originally Posted by threemonkeys

Oh, Carl...yeah...um...I thought I would find you here.

Just saying, my friend.

What are you doing here? Didn't you see that it was a Girls Coffee shop?

...I'm just here to play some music from times to times, really!

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Kinnakeet

Hey Wes, your little cat has landed herself on my doorstep;we will take good care of her for you!

Michelle your cat is so adorable, whats her name?

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Lisa

Absolutely right! I STILL remember a date from my college years - Robin was his name. It was late; I really needed to be getting home, but before I did he sat down at the piano and played and sang Dan Fogelberg's "Longer" for me - gazing into my eyes the entire time. I was nothing but a puddle on the floor. That was our only date, though - he was just too crazy, plus he was the buddy of an old boyfriend - not cool to date! Um, in fact, the old boyfriend and I got back together eventually. And we're still together.

He played, he sang, AND he gazed into your eyes the entire time WHAAAT, and you weren't at least a little bit sick in your mouth.

Do girls really fall for this??? I have played piano, reluctantly, on request for people in my time. But I prefer to look at the keys.

Right Carl, do you hear this. We have to sing along as well, preferably to love ballads. And practice our puppy dog eyes and eyelid fluttering gaze.

Well I'm glad you kicked this sleazebag into touch Lisa, and I bet your hubby has much, much more of a backbone.

[Kinnakeet]

Originally Posted by threemonkeys

Oh, Carl...yeah...um...I thought I would find you here.

Just saying, my friend.

Hey there Mr. Monkey Man....Carl has got to stay in the Coffeeshop! Otherwise, we coffee people would have to sneak into the open discussion forum,(like Ninjas of course), kidnap him and bring him back!
Seriously though folks, Carl your posts and music are so appreciated in "the Shop"!please don't ever leave.....
So,Monkey-Dude, do you sing? or do magic tricks?-you could team up with Wes and Carl! I've read some of your posts, and your sense of humour shines through...maybe you could do stand up comedy in "the Shop"?
So stick around yourself dude- the more the merrier

[Kinnakeet]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Michelle your cat is so adorable, whats her name?

Hey Wes, her name is Viola, and she is such a card! She is not the cuddle-bunny our other cat is, but she is soooo entertaining!
She does like to spend a lot of time upside down...I hope its not a neurological thing..

[Kinnakeet]

Originally Posted by The Joker

He played, he sang, AND he gazed into your eyes the entire time WHAAAT, and you weren't at least a little bit sick in your mouth.

Do girls really fall for this??? I have played piano, reluctantly, on request for people in my time. But I prefer to look at the keys.

Ohhh Wes.....well, admittedly it would be damn hard Not to fall for this!-even if you are just looking at the keys!
It's not so much a mushy over the top romantic thing......but playing music For someone, is like speaking from your heart- no room for pretense ....
Also, when someone such as yourself so obviously enjoys and feels the music he is creating...well its a little hard not to swoon a bit

[Kinnakeet]

Originally Posted by FeelingTheBlues

Aren't they? I've seen dozens of them at my job (along with Dobermans, American Staffordshire Terriers, Bulldogs, Bullmastiffs and a lot of other bully breeds) and they were all lovely and wonderful!

As for the SPCA, it shall be my very first place to visit if I ever decide to get an animal but I'm not ready for that yet! However, I've read enough about dogs to know which breeds would be great for me and which wouldn't be the best.

P.S.: I know Rottweilers aren't that active but if I compare it to the Bullmastiff they are. The Bull is my first choice (for both his temper and the fact that he would be great to fit my life style and my personality).



Ridhebacks are amazing dogs! I know Kaya kept one for a few days or weeks and I have a few customers who have some. However, from what I've seen and read they wouldn't be the best for me yet! I wouldn't get one as a very first dog personally but I'm sure they would be an interesting challenge to raise and they are most probably great pets when properly raised.

(By the way, don't take this paragraph as a I see dogs as objects and I get them for the kick, I'm just trying to get a somewhat realist idea of the domain and although it wouldn't be the first thing I'd have in mind I'm sure they would be interesting to raise and analyze)



I've seen a couple of Labs and the main problem I've seen is that people underestimate them. Like some bully breeds have a dangerous dog reputation they are often seen as big loving boys who will be nice with children. Although this is true for a lot of them they're very energetic and excited dogs and an accident may happen very fast if they're not raised to be careful around kids, something people often forget or don't even know.

Besides that, I find them very good and most of them have a one of a kind temper!

Hey Carl, by any chance, do you work in Security??-all those bigs dogs with tough reputations....
But seriously, I do believe you are right in that any dog will be the product of it's upbringing and training. I recently saw an Anderson Cooper show on pit bulls, and how their bad-rep is so unfair...we actually have a by-law in our area prohibiting pit bull ownership!, so this Anderson guest speaker gave me food for thought!
-About Black Labs, I hear Leo and you on their energy level etc., My sister's newly adopted Black Lab is 9 years old, and still has lots of energy. She is also very well behaved around the house, and family, and their 2 cats....she is such a great fit for my sis- who just lost her beloved rottie about a month and a half ago. We were heart broken for her,and it's so good to see her smiling again.

PS- Carl your pet spidey is sweet! and so is your watch!

[Kinnakeet]

Originally Posted by FeelingTheBlues

By the way, ladies, please stick around the Open Discussion forum! I've had quite a special experience tonight and have pictures (and a video!) to share it with you! I think you animal lovers may like it!

Well coffeeshop people, I'm just going to pick up my mint mochachino and toddle on over to the ODF...see ya'll there...looking forward to it Carl

[Lisa]

Originally Posted by The Joker

He played, he sang, AND he gazed into your eyes the entire time WHAAAT, and you weren't at least a little bit sick in your mouth.

Do girls really fall for this??? I have played piano, reluctantly, on request for people in my time. But I prefer to look at the keys.

Right Carl, do you hear this. We have to sing along as well, preferably to love ballads. And practice our puppy dog eyes and eyelid fluttering gaze.

Well I'm glad you kicked this sleazebag into touch Lisa, and I bet your hubby has much, much more of a backbone.

Well... erm... bear in mind I was very young. And he was quite cute... but had sort of a Jim Carrey personality... no, actually it was more like Borat/Sacha Baron Cohen. Absolutely nothing would embarrass him and he pulled stunts almost constantly to get laughs. Just a bit much for a shyer type like me.

Interesting that the person I married was about as far from romantic as they come! "Hey Lisa! Listen to this Hendrix lick I've been working on!"

[Lisa]

Originally Posted by Kinnakeet

Hey Wes, her name is Viola, and she is such a card! She is not the cuddle-bunny our other cat is, but she is soooo entertaining!
She does like to spend a lot of time upside down...I hope its not a neurological thing..

Michelle, that kitty looks like a character! I love the bi-color eyes.

[Lisa]

Carl - backing up a bit on topic - regarding dogs: What do you think of Weimaraners? I only have experience with one - our neighbors across the street who have since moved away had one. Simon was a huge dog, but seemed gentle and smart and always took extra care around little kids. He knew how playful or gentle to be depending on the child. My oldest girl would wrestle with him and try to ride him like a pony - whereupon he would just sigh and sit down, sliding her off into a laughing heap.

His owners had a newborn baby and never worried about the dog being too rambunctious around him. Once I was having a discussion with the owner about a backyard project (he was a landscaper and was doing a project for us) and Violet, who was no more than three at the time, was playing nearby. Well, Violet got a big thorn in her foot (bad mom for not noticing) and sat down on the grass because it hurt her to walk, and she began to whimper. I didn't hear her (bad mom) but Simon did, and when I looked over at her she seemed fine, sitting in the grass with Simon. She told me later he nudged her gently and licked her leg, and that "he looked really worried." Then he galloped over to where Tim and I were talking, and he kept nudging my hand. I thought he just wanted to play, and Tim told him to run off and play with Violet. But he would run off in Violet's direction, stop and look earnestly at me, and then run back and nudge my hand - very persistent. FINALLY I realized Violet needed some help. He was just like Lassie!

[FeelingTheBlues]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Right Carl, do you hear this. We have to sing along as well, preferably to love ballads. And practice our puppy dog eyes and eyelid fluttering gaze.

I've got the puppy eyes but you'll have to sing because I'm not good at all, I only like to sing when I'm alone with my guitar and my microphone!

Originally Posted by Kinnakeet

Hey there Mr. Monkey Man....Carl has got to stay in the Coffeeshop! Otherwise, we coffee people would have to sneak into the open discussion forum,(like Ninjas of course), kidnap him and bring him back!
Seriously though folks, Carl your posts and music are so appreciated in "the Shop"!please don't ever leave.....
So,Monkey-Dude, do you sing? or do magic tricks?-you could team up with Wes and Carl! I've read some of your posts, and your sense of humour shines through...maybe you could do stand up comedy in "the Shop"?
So stick around yourself dude- the more the merrier

That's an idea! Craig will be our Robert Plant-ish feminine/sexy singer and he will scream "woohoo" and "oh yeah" all along while we play! Of course, he'll have to buy very tight jeans and get long curly hair but that's another story!

By the way, I must say I have a lot of fun with Craig, he's a man you need to know Michelle! Not only is he funny but he is also a very nice gentleman!

Originally Posted by Kinnakeet

Hey Carl, by any chance, do you work in Security??-all those bigs dogs with tough reputations....
But seriously, I do believe you are right in that any dog will be the product of it's upbringing and training. I recently saw an Anderson Cooper show on pit bulls, and how their bad-rep is so unfair...we actually have a by-law in our area prohibiting pit bull ownership!, so this Anderson guest speaker gave me food for thought!
-About Black Labs, I hear Leo and you on their energy level etc., My sister's newly adopted Black Lab is 9 years old, and still has lots of energy. She is also very well behaved around the house, and family, and their 2 cats....she is such a great fit for my sis- who just lost her beloved rottie about a month and a half ago. We were heart broken for her,and it's so good to see her smiling again.

PS- Carl your pet spidey is sweet! and so is your watch!

Thank you for the comments about the spider Michelle! I don't know where it went but I'm sure we'll see it (or another one) around very soon, those yellow babies are literally everywhere!

As for myself, I work in a store selling animals food and accessories (not a pet shop, mind you, we do not sell animals). People can bring their pets and that's how I've got to meet all those wonderful breeds.

Now I do not want to elaborate on the subject because it would be somewhat long to explain but there's no such thing as a Pitbull (boy do I hate that name), there is the American Staffordshire Terrier, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the English Bull Terrier (which isn't usually called Pitbull but you never know, for the record they're the ones with the egg shaped head). I know some people refer to a breed as the American Pitbull Terrier but I'm not sure about this one, I think it's just a matter of calling the same dog one name or the other name depending of the Kennel Club you are referring to. Now the Bulldog was a dog that, as the name states, used to fight bulls in front of an audience, they've used that dog and mixed it with several types of terriers to make a more agile fighter and used those new breeds to fight in pits, hence the name. However, there's no such breed as a Pitbull and there's no such thing as "the red-nose is more like this while the blue-nose is more like that", some people may argue with me but that's my opinion, the color of a dog has nothing to do with the temper...

Of course, the looks of those dogs and their primary jobs (bully breeds and those big "dangerous" dogs were and are still working dogs, they love to work and it's good to make them walk with a little something on them, either a backpack or a little something to carry, to make them feel like they're doing something) make people think that they are dangerous but there's no such thing like a dangerous breed, there are just dangerous dogs and those dogs come in all sizes and colors.

Well, that was quite a mouthful for a guy who didn't want to elaborate () but to sum it up here are some small things that I've read and experienced over the years:

- In the almost three years I've been to my store I've seen hundreds of dogs and they came in several sizes and breeds. Out of those, only a Chow Chow and a Yorkshire Terrier actually tried to bite me.

- Don't always believe what you read about those attacks. If someone talks about a Pitbull you have to ask if he's talking about one of the breeds I've mentioned or one of the millions mutts that have a bit of those dogs in it (one forget those too often).

- Those dogs are wonderful but I must say they're somewhat harder to train. They need an owner who knows the breed well and is willing to put the effort to raise them the way they need to be. They need to know who is the boss (or at least know that they aren't) and they must be socialized!

- The Staffordshire Bull Terrier, also called Pitbull too often, was nicknamed the Nanny Dog in the UK due to its good nature and ability to play with children.

- Fighting dogs are usually more dangerous and wary of other dogs than humans (usually!), this is due to the fact that at the time they were used to fight they were surrounded by humans and they could only attack other animals in the arena, otherwise they'd get killed right away.

- Rottweilers aren't and weren't bred as fighting dogs, they were primarily used to drive cattle and protect it from wolves and other predators (like the German Shepherd).

- I would recommend you to give this test a try. It shows several breeds of dogs and only one of them is called the American Pitbull Terrier. This shows people how easy it is to be confused and think all those are just Pitbulls or mean dogs (for the record, I didn't get it). Good luck!

[FeelingTheBlues]

Originally Posted by Lisa

Carl - backing up a bit on topic - regarding dogs: What do you think of Weimaraners? I only have experience with one - our neighbors across the street who have since moved away had one. Simon was a huge dog, but seemed gentle and smart and always took extra care around little kids. He knew how playful or gentle to be depending on the child. My oldest girl would wrestle with him and try to ride him like a pony - whereupon he would just sigh and sit down, sliding her off into a laughing heap.

His owners had a newborn baby and never worried about the dog being too rambunctious around him. Once I was having a discussion with the owner about a backyard project (he was a landscaper and was doing a project for us) and Violet, who was no more than three at the time, was playing nearby. Well, Violet got a big thorn in her foot (bad mom for not noticing) and sat down on the grass because it hurt her to walk, and she began to whimper. I didn't hear her (bad mom) but Simon did, and when I looked over at her she seemed fine, sitting in the grass with Simon. She told me later he nudged her gently and licked her leg, and that "he looked really worried." Then he galloped over to where Tim and I were talking, and he kept nudging my hand. I thought he just wanted to play, and Tim told him to run off and play with Violet. But he would run off in Violet's direction, stop and look earnestly at me, and then run back and nudge my hand - very persistent. FINALLY I realized Violet needed some help. He was just like Lassie!

That was a funny and somewhat touching story Lisa! I think Weimaraners are great dogs and the ones I've seen so far were all wonderful (they wanted a lot of attention but seemed to be joyful and ready to play anytime). However, the only thing I kind of dislike is that they have a whole lot of energy, a customer of mine has one who used to throw his bowl around just to play (water bowl, mind you, it seems like the empty ones aren't as interesting! ), if you mix that to the fact that they crave for attention (again, this is more of an opinion based on my experience) you get a dog that jumps on you and runs quickly to you for a treat or a petting session!

I'm also not sure about that but since they're hunting dogs they probably like to sniff around a whole lot and that may make a walk somewhat painful and annoying.

Still, I think it's a great breed provided that it has been trained to at least control its energy for places where he can't be as excited.

[Kinnakeet]

Originally Posted by Lisa

Michelle, that kitty looks like a character! I love the bi-color eyes.

Thanks Lisa; I tell Viola she has David Bowie eyes!
PS- your big doggy/little child story IS quite touching, and is yet another example of my belief that animals,(of all sorts), are not to far off from Humans in their emotional responses.

[Kinnakeet]

Hey Carl you are very knowledgable and passionate about dogs,(Kinda like Leo and his horticulture!);
Have you ever thought about writing/submitting any articles to doggy type publications? The big "bull" dogs do need someone to advocate for them !

[Kinnakeet]

Originally Posted by FeelingTheBlues

I've got the puppy eyes but you'll have to sing because I'm not good at all, I only like to sing when I'm alone with my guitar and my microphone!



That's an idea! Craig will be our Robert Plant-ish feminine/sexy singer and he will scream "woohoo" and "oh yeah" all along while we play! Of course, he'll have to buy very tight jeans and get long curly hair but that's another story!

By the way, I must say I have a lot of fun with Craig, he's a man you need to know Michelle! Not only is he funny but he is also a very nice gentleman!




-

-

Hey Carl, the more the merrier, and tell Monkey-Dude not to worry about tight jeans..its a coffeeshop! a place to kick back and relax,

[FeelingTheBlues]

Originally Posted by Kinnakeet

Hey Carl you are very knowledgable and passionate about dogs,(Kinda like Leo and his horticulture!);
Have you ever thought about writing/submitting any articles to doggy type publications? The big "bull" dogs do need someone to advocate for them !

Thank you Michelle but unfortunately I'm not thinking about writing elsewhere from here!

In all honesty there is a whole lot of articles and books written about those beautiful and amazing dogs but it seems like people prefer to hear "a pitbull ate a whole family" and such absurdities rather than taking a look at serious studies and get to know them. I just hope I can share what I think and what I've read with some people so they can love them at least a little bit like they deserve to be (please don't see any of my posts as mean or condescending, it is not my intention and I apologize if it looks like it is).

P.S.: Another little fact, locking jaws don't exist! If anybody tells you such a thing please do tell him he's wrong on my behalf! In fact, they tested the jaw strength of the American Staffordshire Terrier, the Rottweiler and the German Shepherd and the Amstadd was the less strong one (the first one being the Rottweiler).

Originally Posted by Kinnakeet

Hey Carl, the more the merrier, and tell Monkey-Dude not to worry about tight jeans..its a coffeeshop! a place to kick back and relax,

Craig will most probably come back (I hope) and relax with us but there's no way he's coming on the stage if he doesn't have his rockstar suit!

[Kinnakeet]

Originally Posted by FeelingTheBlues

Thank you Michelle but unfortunately I'm not thinking about writing elsewhere from here!

In all honesty there is a whole lot of articles and books written about those beautiful and amazing dogs but it seems like people prefer to hear "a pitbull ate a whole family" and such absurdities rather than taking a look at serious studies and get to know them. I just hope I can share what I think and what I've read with some people so they can love them at least a little bit like they deserve to be (please don't see any of my posts as mean or condescending, it is not my intention and I apologize if it looks like it is).

P.S.: Another little fact, locking jaws don't exist! If anybody tells you such a thing please do tell him he's wrong on my behalf! In fact, they tested the jaw strength of the American Staffordshire Terrier, the Rottweiler and the German Shepherd and the Amstadd was the less strong one (the first one being the Rottweiler).



Craig will most probably come back (I hope) and relax with us but there's no way he's coming on the stage if he doesn't have his rockstar suit!

Well that would be grand!
by the way, there s nothing condescending about your posts on dogs- its all very informative, and I sure haven't come across any information on these big guys, until the Anderson Cooper show's segment....so getting back to my idea of you writing.....

[FeelingTheBlues]

Originally Posted by Kinnakeet

Well that would be grand!
by the way, there s nothing condescending about your posts on dogs- its all very informative, and I sure haven't come across any information on these big guys, until the Anderson Cooper show's segment....so getting back to my idea of you writing.....

Thank you again Michelle! I appreciate being helpful (for the few time I've been for the past...decades...).

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Lisa

Well... erm... bear in mind I was very young. And he was quite cute... but had sort of a Jim Carrey personality... no, actually it was more like Borat/Sacha Baron Cohen. Absolutely nothing would embarrass him and he pulled stunts almost constantly to get laughs. Just a bit much for a shyer type like me.

Interesting that the person I married was about as far from romantic as they come! "Hey Lisa! Listen to this Hendrix lick I've been working on!"

Sorry about my rant earlier. Maybe it was my vicious jealous side coming out.

[FeelingTheBlues]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Sorry about my rant earlier. Maybe it was my vicious jealous side coming out.

Yeah, hum...this starts to sound like a romantic comedy movie...I think I'll leave you guys alone...

[East Bay Rider]

My wife's stepmother lost her little white fluffy dog when it was killed on her own porch by a 'pitbull'. She let the dog out on the porch to do its business every morning while she made coffee. She heard the cries of it being bitten and shaken by the throat, ran out and could not get it free. She stood powerless while the pit bull killed her dog right in front of her. Take a minute and try to imagine that. Imagine that she had to clean up blood and fur of her loved pet off her porch.
My wife's stepmother is single, alone and only had her dog and a couple of cats. This devastated her. She cried uncontrollably on my couch.
I know people defend the pitbull ad nausium and always tell what a gentle loving breed they are but this guy is not buying it. There are gentle loving breeds and there are fighting breeds and there are rescue breeds and working breeds and hunting breeds etc.
I know there are good and bad in all of them.
I'm of the mind that unless one needs to guard a junkyard, if someone needs a tough guy dog he's probably just making up for a personal shortcoming.

[FeelingTheBlues]

Originally Posted by East Bay Rider

My wife's stepmother lost her little white fluffy dog when it was killed on her own porch by a 'pitbull'. She let the dog out on the porch to do its business every morning while she made coffee. She heard the cries of it being bitten and shaken by the throat, ran out and could not get it free. She stood powerless while the pit bull killed her dog right in front of her. Take a minute and try to imagine that. Imagine that she had to clean up blood and fur of her loved pet off her porch.
My wife's stepmother is single, alone and only had her dog and a couple of cats. This devastated her. She cried uncontrollably on my couch.
I know people defend the pitbull ad nausium and always tell what a gentle loving breed they are but this guy is not buying it. There are gentle loving breeds and there are fighting breeds and there are rescue breeds and working breeds and hunting breeds etc.
I know there are good and bad in all of them.
I'm of the mind that unless one needs to guard a junkyard, if someone needs a tough guy dog he's probably just making up for a personal shortcoming.

Bill,

I know where you're coming from and I'm deeply saddened by your wife's stepmother's loss. Indeed, such stories used to make me wonder myself how could one get such breeds when things like that happen.

However, without wanting to excuse that dog at all (this one was obviously crazy, there is no doubt about it and such tragedies should never happen to any dogs and shouldn't be caused by any dogs either), I must say that it doesn't mean they are all like that. Those awful stories happen and I truly wish they wouldn't but they do not mean that certain breeds should be punished. As I've said, judge the deed, not the breed.

In all honesty, I'd be very curious to see the owner of that nightmare of a dog. Too often you see people buying such breeds for the looks and for the hype without knowing how to properly take care of them. Without saying they are absolutely dangerous, they do need a special education and one needs to understand perfectly how to respect the dog he has and how to raise it because their tempers are (without being worst or better) much different than other breeds. Given their past, it does happen that some breeds will react in a very bad way when they encounter other dogs or humans, a lot of them are getting a lot better in general since they're now pets much more than working dogs but, unfortunately, you'll always find some exceptions.

I do not want to convince you of anything but I wouldn't put all the bully breeds in the same category. However, I will never warn people too much about the amount of work that owning such a dog involves because one must not only try to prove scared people that they shouldn't be afraid, one should also convince people who want them for the looks that it isn't a good idea unless you are fully prepared and unless you have the necessary knowledge. This applies to all the breeds, whether they have a good reputation or not.

[Lisa]

Hmmm.... I have some pretty strong opinions about the dog breed versus dog training debate, but it's kind of like politics and religion... never changes anyone's minds and only makes people irritable. I know that if I was in the market for a dog, if I had to put any effort into showing it who was the boss, or into learning how to deal with aggressive/stubborn tendencies, it wouldn't be the dog for me.

[Kinnakeet]

Bill, that experience would have been HELL to live through- for both you and your wife's stepmom...it certainly gives you just cause for being on the side of the fence that you are on.
The whole issue is really a nature vs nurture debate; I think that in all fairness to these dog breeds, it should be debated right now, and not just a slam-dunk on the dogs. For example, my personal "prejudice" is against the dog owners, more then the dogs,...what kind of person would want to own a "killer" anyways?? But when I hear myself say this, It doesn't sound valid- who am i to make that judgement call against another person?
I hear Carl's views, in that there are good people out there who can work and train these breeds to be good dogs...nature vs nurture...whats going to be stronger?
Right now I'm riding the fence- I don't know which side I'll end up sitting on...
There are many old ways of thinking and living that need to change, like dog fighting, and training killer instincts into these animals... my hope is that nurture will win out over nature.

[threemonkeys]

Originally Posted by Kinnakeet

Hey there Mr. Monkey Man....Carl has got to stay in the Coffeeshop! Otherwise, we coffee people would have to sneak into the open discussion forum,(like Ninjas of course), kidnap him and bring him back!
Seriously though folks, Carl your posts and music are so appreciated in "the Shop"!please don't ever leave.....
So,Monkey-Dude, do you sing? or do magic tricks?-you could team up with Wes and Carl! I've read some of your posts, and your sense of humour shines through...maybe you could do stand up comedy in "the Shop"?
So stick around yourself dude- the more the merrier

Hmmm, Michelle. It sounds like I might be under a bit of pressure...and with all my wacky inspirational material from our members located in the other threads...But Carl is here. And I like Carl (he better not read this). So I may be dropping in more often.

[East Bay Rider]

Gotta give NATURE it's due. Even my own dog, Murphy, who I'm crazy about and give lots of attention, has natural tendencies that just can't be trained out. As a puppy these traits can be subdued but at around 2 to 2-1/2 years old they come out nomatter what. That's not to say he's not awesome but let's face it if a cat walks by he can usually control himself but if the cat runs he's giving chase. He's a Wheaten Terrier. His breed was 'created' to chase and kill vermin on the farm. I don't know how certain behaviors develop into specific critters but there's no denying it. IMO same goes for the bully dogs. They were bred to have certain traits and just as some outside behavior triggers an uncontrollable reaction to give chase in my Wheaten Terrier, the bully dog breeds will also have behavioral triggers that cause them to do what they do best.
I cannot be convinced otherwise. I hope I described this in the most inoffensive way.