Talking Stocks 2.0

[huncho]

Originally Posted by piratfisk

Buying BTC/ETH directly (like through RobinHood app) wouldn't have a fee, you're just buying the coin. An ETF has a fee because you need to pay for someone to manage the fund's holdings.

that's also because crypto on robinhood is an i owe you. it's nothing like buying the actual coin because you don't actually get the coins and can't withdraw them. it's basically just robinhood giving you "fake" coins and promising they can exchange it back at a future date

there are only a few places you can buy actual btc in the US and they all have fees

[piratfisk]

Originally Posted by huncho

that's also because crypto on robinhood is an i owe you. it's nothing like buying the actual coin because you don't actually get the coins and can't withdraw them. it's basically just robinhood promising they can exchange it back at a future date

That's good to know! I don't own BTC/ETH, nor use RobinHood, so I guess I was unqualified to answer that question. I was using tangential knowledge of ETFs.

[huncho]

Originally Posted by piratfisk

That's good to know! I don't own BTC/ETH, nor use RobinHood, so I guess I was unqualified to answer that question. I was using tangential knowledge of ETFs.

yeah there are different ways to buy actual crypto on exchanges like coinbase. the easiest way on coinbase (just clicking buy with cash) will cost you insane fees, something like $40-50 if you're buying $1000 worth of it. if you go through their "advanced trading" section it will be much less, and of course if you buy their premium they waive fees up to a certain amount per month. the advanced trading is a bit harder to navigate for most people who have no idea what they're doing though

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by huncho

there are only a few places you can buy actual btc in the US and they all have fees

Am curious of the cost difference of buying / selling / holding actual ETH / BTC versus a 'promise' ETF.

[huncho]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Am curious of the cost difference of buying / selling / holding actual ETH / BTC versus a 'promise' ETF.

just to be clear, it's not a promise etf, they're all actually gonna buy btc for every dollar that flows in. robinhood's crypto is based on a promise, they don't hold nearly enough crypto to pay everyone out and that's why when you buy crypto there you can't withdraw it, because it doesn't actually exist. i assume if there's a run on them they'll have to go panic buy everything on the market

etf fees are below. coinbase pro has a max of 0.6% while their retail app charges 1.5-3%. the etf is the way to go for casual investors because there are too many headaches and too much paranoia involved in safely holding your own btc, especially if it's a significant amount

Bitwise (BITB) 0.0% (after first six months: 0.2%)
ARK Invest/21Shares (ARKB) 0.0% (after first six months: 0.21%)
Invesco Galaxy Bitcoin ETF (BTCO) 0.0% (after first six months: 0.39%)
iShares Bitcoin Trust (IBIT) 0.12% (after first 12 months: 0.25%)
VanEck Bitcoin Trust (HODL) 0.25%
Franklin Bitcoin ETF (EZBC) 0.29%
Fidelity Wise Origin Bitcoin Trust (FBTC) 0% (after July 31, 2024: 0.25%)
WisdomTree Bitcoin Trust (BTCW) 0.0% (after first six months: 0.3%)
Valkyrie Bitcoin Fund (BRRR) 0.0% (after three months: 0.49%)
Hashdex Bitcoin Futures ETF (DEFI) 0.94%
Grayscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC) 1.5%

[Notepad12]

Hey I got a couple stock ideas what do you guys think?

This is the first one, also has a current dividend of 5.95%

Screenshot_20240116-211425.jpg

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[Notepad12]

This is the second

Screenshot_20240116-211934.jpgScreenshot_20240116-212004.jpgScreenshot_20240116-212047.jpg

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[Fabrice M]

Originally Posted by huncho

just to be clear, it's not a promise etf, they're all actually gonna buy btc for every dollar that flows in. robinhood's crypto is based on a promise, they don't hold nearly enough crypto to pay everyone out and that's why when you buy crypto there you can't withdraw it, because it doesn't actually exist. i assume if there's a run on them they'll have to go panic buy everything on the market

etf fees are below. coinbase pro has a max of 0.6% while their retail app charges 1.5-3%. the etf is the way to go for casual investors because there are too many headaches and too much paranoia involved in safely holding your own btc, especially if it's a significant amount

Bitwise (BITB) 0.0% (after first six months: 0.2%)
ARK Invest/21Shares (ARKB) 0.0% (after first six months: 0.21%)
Invesco Galaxy Bitcoin ETF (BTCO) 0.0% (after first six months: 0.39%)
iShares Bitcoin Trust (IBIT) 0.12% (after first 12 months: 0.25%)
VanEck Bitcoin Trust (HODL) 0.25%
Franklin Bitcoin ETF (EZBC) 0.29%
Fidelity Wise Origin Bitcoin Trust (FBTC) 0% (after July 31, 2024: 0.25%)
WisdomTree Bitcoin Trust (BTCW) 0.0% (after first six months: 0.3%)
Valkyrie Bitcoin Fund (BRRR) 0.0% (after three months: 0.49%)
Hashdex Bitcoin Futures ETF (DEFI) 0.94%
Grayscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC) 1.5%

ETF is the way to go, easier and safer... Decided to go with Blackrock#IBIT

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by huncho

the etf is the way to go for casual investors because there are too many headaches and too much paranoia involved in safely holding your own btc, especially if it's a significant amount.

It's actually very easy to buy and sell BTC / ETH / etc imho, yet as we know Wall Street companies do rely on their fee structures... which of course reduce your bottom line 'profits'. BTC was designed for ease of use globally. But yes, if you like paying added fees to Wall Street that is of course your choice.

[huncho]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

It's actually very easy to buy and sell BTC / ETH / etc imho, yet as we know Wall Street companies do rely on their fee structures... which of course reduce your bottom line 'profits'. BTC was designed for ease of use globally. But yes, if you like paying added fees to Wall Street that is of course your choice.

most people are not tech savvy enough to send btc back and forth into wallets and don't know how to safely store them. i've been in crypto for like 6 years and i still get paranoid every time i send crypto and it takes some time to get there lol. there's no way someone like my mom for example would buy actual btc, but she'll easily buy microstrategy or these etfs. also you need to move money into coinbase and stuff, so yeah it's just added layers of complexity for people that aren't used to it

[enjoythemusic]

Smart investors should take time for modern financial education, which in turn helps to provide market confidence in BTC / ETH / etc, agreed. You may have hit the nail on the head.

Reminds me of Geek Squad 'invoice refund' and other payment scams that prey on using Gift Cards, which are very risky and may include total loss if lost or stolen, should be taught in school. Agreed there is market risk, and beware of extra fees. Education brings knowledge and can help to achieve smarter investment strategies while also minimizing unnecessary fees that reduce your investment advantage. By you holding the actual BTC / ETH / etc, you eliminate certain risks we've all seen at Wall Street including stocks, currencies, and yes commodities.

Once Blackrock, for example, has your BTC, can they financialize it in other ways? Is it wholly owned by you 100%, or can Blackrock use your BTC as collateral to increase their risky holdings elsewhere (for example, as USA banks do with Dollar deposits)?

[BraveBold]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Smart investors should take time for modern financial education, which in turn helps to provide market confidence in BTC / ETH / etc, agreed. You may have hit the nail on the head.

Reminds me of Geek Squad 'invoice refund' and other payment scams that prey on using Gift Cards, which are very risky and may include total loss if lost or stolen, should be taught in school. Agreed there is market risk, and beware of extra fees. Education brings knowledge and can help to achieve smarter investment strategies while also minimizing unnecessary fees that reduce your investment advantage.

I think much of the problem is inherent in the “asset” class itself. It attracts a disproportionate number of “lottery” seekers looking to get rich quick. Like meme stocks and other fads before (as also seen in the sheer breadth of dot com retail investors, etc).

[superdog]

Originally Posted by huncho

most people are not tech savvy enough to send btc back and forth into wallets and don't know how to safely store them. i've been in crypto for like 6 years and i still get paranoid every time i send crypto and it takes some time to get there lol. there's no way someone like my mom for example would buy actual btc, but she'll easily buy microstrategy or these etfs. also you need to move money into coinbase and stuff, so yeah it's just added layers of complexity for people that aren't used to it

This is one of the things that frightens me too.

Currently looking for a solid fund to put it in. Currently looking at Grayscale.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by BraveBold

I think much of the problem is inherent in the “asset” class itself.

Since we've now been through a few cycles, things have stabilized to some degree. Agree that many may not 'understand' crypto, such as JPM's Jamie Diamond who thinks you can 'print / create' more BTC as is done with currencies.

Watched Christine Lagarde at the WEF 2024 and she is right that economists (and dare i add investors) are very "Tribalist". Crypto is very different from central bank products, or traditional investing, and so treating it as such is probably not a good idea.

BTC / ETH / etc ETF is a very bad idea imho, as users are wasting resources by using a middleman (Blackrock for example), so the transaction is not direct/efficient PLUS adds unnecessary fees during a transaction. In addition, BTC is 100% trustable on its own, whereas we know Wall Street is not 100% trustable so why allow them access to BTC (other than as a form of payment for goods and services). Since transparency has been a buzzword, what proof of (your) BTC ownership does an ETF offer?

Of course great profits are made by being a 'man in the middle' by charging fees, PayPal is an obvious example, but it robs the broader 'investment' as fees remove resources. We know banks make Billions on fees; it also is akin to removing Billions from the broad 'economy' and into the 'hands' of the few. That's why a BTC / ETH / etc ETF is very inefficient and worse still, adds additional risks while incurring debilitating higher transaction costs.

[BraveBold]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Since we've now been through a few cycles, things have stabilized to some degree. Agree that many may not 'understand' crypto, such as JPM's Jamie Diamond who thinks you can 'print / create' more BTC as is done with currencies.

Watched Christine Lagarde at the WEF 2024 and she is right that economists (and dare i add investors) are very "Tribalist". Crypto is very different from central bank products, or traditional investing, and so treating it as such is probably not a good idea.

BTC / ETH / etc ETF is a very bad idea imho, as users are wasting resources by using a middleman (Blackrock for example), so the transaction is not direct/efficient PLUS adds unnecessary fees during a transaction. In addition, BTC is 100% trustable on its own, whereas we know Wall Street is not 100% trustable so why allow them access to BTC (other than as a form of payment for goods and services). Since transparency has been a buzzword, what proof of (your) BTC ownership does an ETF offer?

Of course great profits are made by being a 'man in the middle' by charging fees, PayPal is an obvious example, but it robs the broader 'investment' as fees remove resources. We know banks make Billions on fees; it also is akin to removing Billions from the broad 'economy' and into the 'hands' of the few. That's why a BTC / ETH / etc ETF is very inefficient and worse still, adds additional risks while incurring debilitating higher transaction costs.

I don’t know who Jamie Diamond is but agree many don’t understand crypto. Especially the vast majority who own it and report on it. I just saw a headline blurb from of the crypto hype sites (I mean, news sites) and they spoke of the halving… that it reduced the supply of bitcoin. Seriously. No shame - trying to confuse the majority of “hodlrs” in the same manner as the nonsensical “price predictions” by all those clearly conflicted (motivated) by their own holdings.

Hilarious stuff. Reminiscent of so much that’s happened before and will happen again.

[huncho]

Originally Posted by BraveBold

I don’t know who Jamie Diamond is but agree many don’t understand crypto. Especially the vast majority who own it and report on it. I just saw a headline blurb from of the crypto hype sites (I mean, news sites) and they spoke of the halving… that it reduced the supply of bitcoin. Seriously. No shame - trying to confuse the majority of “hodlrs” in the same manner as the nonsensical “price predictions” by all those clearly conflicted (motivated) by their own holdings.

Hilarious stuff. Reminiscent of so much that’s happened before and will happen again.

i really dislike Dimon and considering how involved he is with these etfs now and how many vip clients they've allowed to invest in btc over the last few years there's no reason he should still be publicly shitting on it every week, especially when he's arguably the most powerful ceo in the world. he wants to be a celebrity so bad

[superdog]

Originally Posted by superdog

This is one of the things that frightens me too.

Currently looking for a solid fund to put it in. Currently looking at Grayscale.

just tried to buy a very small amount. but ML still won't allow it. too bad. thought it was all getting more regulated and was "safer" to buy.

[huncho]

Originally Posted by superdog

just tried to buy a very small amount. but ML still won't allow it. too bad. thought it was all getting more regulated and was "safer" to buy.

what brokerage?

[piratfisk]

Originally Posted by huncho

what brokerage?

ML = Merrill Lynch

[huncho]

Originally Posted by piratfisk

ML = Merrill Lynch

ah yeah not sure how i didn't figure it out. looks like they only have it for selected clients (uhnw probably ?)

either way it's all bs because they're probably investing in btc themselves. anything to stop people from being earlier than they are because where are these same disclaimers or blocks when it comes to equities that went -95% in 2022, or can go down 30% in one aftermarket session (they don't exist). none of these brokerages care about people losing money

[BroncoOne]

Originally Posted by huncho

i really dislike Dimon and considering how involved he is with these etfs now and how many vip clients they've allowed to invest in btc over the last few years there's no reason he should still be publicly shitting on it every week, especially when he's arguably the most powerful ceo in the world. he wants to be a celebrity so bad

To Dimon’s credit he didn’t want to talk about BTC but the hosts pushed the question and he said it was the last time he wanted to talk about it.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by huncho

ah yeah not sure how i didn't figure it out. looks like they only have it for selected clients (uhnw probably ?)

either way it's all bs because they're probably investing in btc themselves. anything to stop people from being earlier than they are because where are these same disclaimers or blocks when it comes to equities that went -95% in 2022, or can go down 30% in one aftermarket session (they don't exist). none of these brokerages care about people losing money

Spoke to my FA.

Apparently I simply need permission. He’s taking care of it now.

Supposedly the reason is that it’s super risky, so permission is required prior to trading.

[BraveBold]

Originally Posted by BroncoOne

To Dimon’s credit he didn’t want to talk about BTC but the hosts pushed the question and he said it was the last time he wanted to talk about it.

He also has a million times more credibility than the vast, vast majority of BTC and crypto hype monkeys (oops, “analysts”) that pepper the media with price predictions (and have done so for at least the past 5+ years).

Of course they are vocal because for a product like Bitcoin you need to keep growing your base of greater fools.

[BroncoOne]

Originally Posted by BraveBold

He also has a million times more credibility than the vast, vast majority of BTC and crypto hype monkeys (oops, “analysts”) that pepper the media with price predictions (and have done so for at least the past 5+ years).

Of course they are vocal because for a product like Bitcoin you need to keep growing your base of greater fools.

Dimon did say (like always) that blockchain tech is a huge new, highly useful tool and will only improve in value and utility, and that a digital currency can also become the same thing, especially to reduce transfer costs of money and assets, but since the current use cases are, well, you know….

[huncho]

Originally Posted by BraveBold

He also has a million times more credibility than the vast, vast majority of BTC and crypto hype monkeys (oops, “analysts”) that pepper the media with price predictions (and have done so for at least the past 5+ years).

Of course they are vocal because for a product like Bitcoin you need to keep growing your base of greater fools.

he has 0 credibility when it comes to bitcoin or crypto, just like those analysts. scam or not, good or bad, it's fine to be on either side, but a lot of the stuff he says about it isn't even intellectual and just shows he just doesn't understand it. also totally fine (or maybe a bit questionable given his position), but then just don't speak on it

don't get me wrong, what he's built JPM into is incredible, but most of his time these days is spent trying to be the Skip or Stephen A Smith of finance. he plays a character and just rambles hot takes publicly

https://twitter.com/jon_charb/status...31496913895921 this was a good one

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by BraveBold

...you need to keep growing your base of greater fools.

That's also true with all central bank products (currencies) as they have no intrinsic value, and yet are defended in various ways that may not be beneficial for everyone within the world. Am sure we can agree today's multipolar world is very interesting, with 'Middle Powers' coming on strong in their own right. With WEF 2024 happening right now, odds are you've been watching a few of their video seminars / conferences with great attention to the future.

You may want to watch yesterday's seminar about Middle Powers in a Multipolar World

https://www.weforum.org/events/world...ltipolar-world

We do indeed live in interesting times. Please also watch other WEF 2024 videos, as there's quite a bit to digest concerning the much stronger multipolar world we live in today. As this is TRF, i also learned a bit from the seminar that featured a Swiss banker and how their currency has been doing quite well against other currencies.

[BraveBold]

Originally Posted by BroncoOne

Dimon did say (like always) that blockchain tech is a huge new, highly useful tool and will only improve in value and utility, and that a digital currency can also become the same thing, especially to reduce transfer costs of money and assets, but since the current use cases are, well, you know….

Blockchain has major beneficial uses. It is what attracted me to Ethereum years ago - and as someone who was involved in areas with real use cases.

But blockchain doesn’t go hand-in-hand with Bitcoin and its treatment by some in the market today.

Also, re: Dimon, I have a unique perspective vs most. Will summarize by saying I disagree with his position on many topics and my statement above was a relative one, not speaking to his competency in absolute terms. But compared to most Bitcoin analysts (really evangelists) he is far more credible.

[avidflyer]

CRK 52 week low, i've always wanted to get in the natural gas play. Is this a new low or is it gonna be a new high.

[FLGatorM5]

Did someone order a melt-up today? Not sure how I feel about a market hitting all time highs before a big week of earnings.

Oh, and I find Dimon mildly entertaining.

[avidflyer]

All time highs....