32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Gab27

From what I am observing, amplitude is higher when the watch is warmer and lower when the watch is colder.

When my 3130 comes off of my wrist when I've been wearing a sweater that covers it and it is very warm, its DU amplitude is generally 305-315 degrees (but less when I am wearing say a t-shirt). Once the watch reaches ambient temp (about 22 degrees), it is more on the order of around 290-295 degrees. If I put it in the fridge and then measure amplitude, it is substantially lower and then progressively increases as the watch comes to room temp.

For the sake of my own curiosity, I wish to know what the cause is here? Is the viscosity of the lubricant used on the balance wheel pivot increasing in colder temps, resulting in greater resistance and not quite as strong of a 'swing'? (and the opposite when warmer?) Does it have to do with expansion/contraction of the materials in different temperatures, such as the hairspring itself? (I would assume this is not the case given the Parachrom Bleu's design to be extremely resistant to temperature variations?)

Interesting questions, hard to answer. It is very difficult to do any quantitative analysis and try to calculate thermal effects inside a highly compact watch movement comprising many individual components with different material properties.

Used materials, masses, dimensions, thermal contacts and anchoring, friction, viscosity of used oils etc. make a quantification (nearly) impossible.

Take the Nb-Zr-O Parachrome spiral. In order to get a rough approximation about the impact of temperature changes, you would need to determine the so-called expansion coefficient for the Niobium-Zirkonium-Oxygen alloy for a dynamic (no static) situation, other physical properties as well, all without knowing the alloy composition, how the spiral was tempered and so on. Hopeless.

For any systematic study one has to be sure that the entire watch has reached a thermal equilibrium, then your only free parameter is this stable temperature, let it be in water, at air or anywhere else.

Just in case you wish to investigate further, which I don't suggest, you would need to measure the watch temperature in thermal equilibrium and obtain a more precise measurement of the amplitudes (305-315 vs. 290-295).

Anyhow, with such high amplitudes I don't expext any changes w.r.t. timekeeping, it questions more how precisely and reproducibly your timegrapher can measure.

Maybe you can join us with your 32xx data?

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by Gab27

Bas, could I trouble you to ask about the relationship between amplitude and temperature? From what I am observing, amplitude is higher when the watch is warmer and lower when the watch is colder.

When my 3130 comes off of my wrist when I've been wearing a sweater that covers it and it is very warm, its DU amplitude is generally 305-315 degrees (but less when I am wearing say a t-shirt). Once the watch reaches ambient temp (about 22 degrees), it is more on the order of around 290-295 degrees. If I put it in the fridge and then measure amplitude, it is substantially lower and then progressively increases as the watch comes to room temp.

For the sake of my own curiosity, I wish to know what the cause is here? Is the viscosity of the lubricant used on the balance wheel pivot increasing in colder temps, resulting in greater resistance and not quite as strong of a 'swing'? (and the opposite when warmer?) Does it have to do with expansion/contraction of the materials in different temperatures, such as the hairspring itself? (I would assume this is not the case given the Parachrom Bleu's design to be extremely resistant to temperature variations?)

Two factors to take into consideration.
(A) Viscosity Index.
(B) Parasitic drag.

In summary.
As the lubes increase in temp the viscosity reduces/becomes physically lighter. This results in less parasitic drag.

Perhaps clearances are a factor but I would probably be inclined to regard it as a minor issue all things considered

[lennywilkins]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Did you read the thread?
You will find several comparisons between the 32xx and 31xx.
Bonne lecture

I can't see any instance of anyone examining the performance of a 31xx after 40 hours off the wrist? Please, do share which pages its on?

Oh wait, you won't, because it isn't there and wouldn't suit your bizarre agenda.

[zengineer]

Rolex should probably have been a little more comservative with the power reserve specs but I guess I've never much cared about power reserve if it is above 36 hours. I wouldn't expect it to perform as it gets close to the end but that's the engineer in me. not the consumer.

I have manual watches and autos. They all are pretty much treated the same and when it mqkes sense to use it I have a few winders in my watch cabinet

So I understand the thread and why the movement gives people concern. I am an outlier maybe but it just doesn't concern me. I bought my 41mm Sub because of the cosmetic "improvements", not a longer reserve.

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[Gab27]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Interesting questions, hard to answer. It is very difficult to do any quantitative analysis and try to calculate thermal effects inside a highly compact watch movement comprising many individual components with different material properties.

Used materials, masses, dimensions, thermal contacts and anchoring, friction, viscosity of used oils etc. make a quantification (nearly) impossible.

Take the Nb-Zr-O Parachrome spiral. In order to get a rough approximation about the impact of temperature changes, you would need to determine the so-called expansion coefficient for the Niobium-Zirkonium-Oxygen alloy for a dynamic (no static) situation, other physical properties as well, all without knowing the alloy composition, how the spiral was tempered and so on. Hopeless.

For any systematic study one has to be sure that the entire watch has reached a thermal equilibrium, then your only free parameter is this stable temperature, let it be in water, at air or anywhere else.

Just in case you wish to investigate further, which I don't suggest, you would need to measure the watch temperature in thermal equilibrium and obtain a more precise measurement of the amplitudes (305-315 vs. 290-295).

Anyhow, with such high amplitudes I don't expext any changes w.r.t. timekeeping, it questions more how precisely and reproducibly your timegrapher can measure.

Maybe you can join us with your 32xx data?

That's a LOT of variables. I don't think I have the equipment or the expertise to dive into it as deeply as I would like to.

From the timekeeping perspective, it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference. It consistently stays within the -2 to +2 range, and it's extremely consistent when factoring in my daily activity. If I am sedentary during the day and wear the watch to bed, it's consistently right about -2 SPD (which I surmise has to do with the watch resting on an angle where there is more friction as it loses the bulk of those two seconds at night). If I am sedentary-to-mildly-active during the day and leave the watch DU or DD when sleeping, it is close to 0 SPD. If I am extremely active during the day, it's about .5 to 1. It's amazing how something with so many moving parts is so accurate and also how many different factors impact this accuracy. But it absolutely blows my mind that whoever regulated this watch did so in a way that could accurately account for my own (often vastly different) behavioral variances to still operate within that -2 to +2 SPD range. Rolex is awesome!

The timegrapher I have is one of those imported 1000 models, so it's not precise enough for me to dive into this deeper, and I don't have a sufficiently accurate means of measuring temperature either. That said, it does make me curious how much the temperature of watches impacts amplitude variance when cross-comparing. If my house is 22 C and someone else's 27 C, how much does that variable alone impact measurements.

By the way, thanks for organizing all of this information! Next time I log some data I'll be glad to add to the mix!

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Two factors to take into consideration.
(A) Viscosity Index.
(B) Parasitic drag.

In summary.
As the lubes increase in temp the viscosity reduces/becomes physically lighter. This results in less parasitic drag.

Perhaps clearances are a factor but I would probably be inclined to regard it as a minor issue all things considered

Is the parasitic drag caused by the lubricant itself?

[Patrick220408]

Hello everyone! I am a new here. And I came across your forum as I try to understand why my DSSD 2016 suddenly stopped last March 2021. I never remove my watch from my wrist. I work, swim and run. I took my watch to the RSC and they said they fixed it but a day after i got the watch, i checked the time and it was off by 1 hour. I called the AD and he said to observe the watch until the PR is drained..and i am still observing as I write this.
I am worried because I have 2 more 3235's a yachtmaster 2 (2017) and the date just (2016). I never wear the date just but the yachtmaster i sometimes do-maybe two days every 3 months.
your forum and all the information is helping me understand more about my watches but I don't know if RSC will repair my DSSD if it stopped again since it is already out of warranty.
1.I would like to ask if there is still hope that my DSSD can be salvaged?
( since I really love wearing this the most)
2. my yachtmaster 2 is off by 5 seconds but i think i can live with that. will it get worse?
3. my date just so far is good, si it because I don't wear it?
4. is it bad for any of my watch to "over wind" it?

I apologize ahead of time if my questions are "dumb".

I really appreciate any help and additional information from all of you.
I have learned so much from reading different threads regarding the 3235 movement/flaws since yesterday. and i am convinced that there maybe "small" amount of us who owns the 3235 watches that are having issues but they are real issues because until last month, my DSSD (2016) was functioning perfectly (or so i thought).

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by lennywilkins

I can't see any instance of anyone examining the performance of a 31xx after 40 hours off the wrist? Please, do share which pages its on?

Oh wait, you won't, because it isn't there and wouldn't suit your bizarre agenda.

Hi Lenny,

I have stated a couple of times at least that I will be continuing after the tests I am doing on the 3235 movement with the same tests but done on a 3135 movement.

Same model - Submariner date
Same temperature
Same Timegrapher
basically same everything other than the movement.

I will, of course, put all my results up in this thread for all to see.

[Patrick220408]

Originally Posted by SearChart

It is designed to run accurately when the mainspring is fully wound or close to it. They will guarantee that -2 / +2 average for 24 hours, after that the watch will continue to lose amplitude and might become inaccurate.

I thought this thread was started to collect useful data about the known amplitude issue the 32 series tends to suffer from, to see how many in this small group of owners are affected.

Hello sir, I am one of the few owners of DSSD (2016) 3235 that has "major issue" my watch completely stopped despite being fuuly wound. took to the RSC and after 3 weeks i got it back and then a day after that, my DSSD is 1 hour off..I would like to respectfully ask your opinion on why this happened.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Gab27

It's amazing how something with so many moving parts is so accurate and also how many different factors impact this accuracy. But it absolutely blows my mind that whoever regulated this watch did so in a way that could accurately account for my own (often vastly different) behavioral variances to still operate within that -2 to +2 SPD range. Rolex is awesome!

Hi, I picked these sentences only ... to say that I fully agree with that.
These mechanical watches are absolutely amazing.
You are very welcome to share some data, hopefully very good ones.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Patrick220408

I am worried because I have 2 more 3235's a yachtmaster 2 (2017) and the date just (2016). I never wear the date just but the yachtmaster i sometimes do-maybe two days every 3 months.
1.I would like to ask if there is still hope that my DSSD can be salvaged?
( since I really love wearing this the most)
2. my yachtmaster 2 is off by 5 seconds but i think i can live with that. will it get worse?
3. my date just so far is good, si it because I don't wear it?
4. is it bad for any of my watch to "over wind" it?

I apologize ahead of time if my questions are "dumb".

I really appreciate any help and additional information from all of you.

You are very welcome here.
There are no dumb questions!

You have three interesting watches:
Sea-Dweller Deepsea (2016)
Datejust (2016)
Yacht-Master II (2017)

My short answers to your questions
(1) Yes, there is of course much hope, you still have warranty until 2022.
(2) You can live with that, but it probably will get worse, nobody knows for sure.
(3) Probably yes.
(4) No, you cannot overwind it.

I recommend you
(a) to carefully read this entire thread
(b) to consider to buy a timegrapher to do some analysis, independently what anybody else says here

Your DSSD (2016) has most likely not been correctly repaired or "serviced" by the RSC.
Nobody can give you an offline diagnosis.

The earlier 32xx movements (until about 2019) are very likely much more affected than the 2020/21 calibers.

[Patrick220408]

Originally Posted by saxo3

You are very welcome here.
There are no dumb questions!

You have three interesting watches:
Sea-Dweller Deepsea (2016)
Datejust (2016)
Yacht-Master II (2017)

My short answers to your questions
(1) Yes, there is of course much hope, you still have warranty until 2022.
(2) You can live with that, but it probably will get worse, nobody knows for sure.
(3) Probably yes.
(4) No, you cannot overwind it.

I recommend you
(a) to carefully read this entire thread
(b) to consider to buy a timegrapher to do some analysis, independently what anybody else says here

Your DSSD (2016) has most likely not been correctly repaired or "serviced" by the RSC.
Nobody can give you an offline diagnosis.

The earlier 32xx movements (until about 2019) are very likely much more affected than the 2020/21 calibers.

Thank you. I am thinking about buying my own timegrapher in order to constantly be aware of my DSSD. The warranty on my DSSD is already expired (April 2021). My watch was sent to RSC in NY because accdg to the AD, they are the only RSC that has the capability to make sure that my DSSD is still water resistant after being "serviced".
Yes, I am still observing my DSSD if it will stop again despite being fully wound.(I hope not).

Thank you for the advice. I guess I am very unlucky to have 3 (3235) watches...

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by Gab27

Is the parasitic drag caused by the lubricant itself?

In one way it is caused by the lubricant.
But another factor which occurs at the point of lubrication is the surface tension which(for the most part) binds the lubricant to the parts whether they be metallic or rubies.
In a close fitting assembly, the surface tension plays a roll in it as well.

But in the end, the viscosity drops as the temperature increases so both of these factors have less impact on parasitic drag.

[CharlesN]

Some of you have been watching reading and commenting on what appears to be an obsession I may have with timing my watch and measuring its accuracy.
I assure you all there is no obsession but there is a genuine interest and fascination with how these little marvels (AKA Rolex watches) work and keep such great timekeeping.

As a lot of you know I have neen doing this for the past three weeks and posting my resuilts here so that others can also see the data i have collected.

A strange anomaly has started to show itself.

It has taken measuring my watch in all 5 positions (DU, 6U. 9U, 3U, DD) and then adding the results onto a graph (Thanks Saxo3) to begin to be spotted.

It seems at artound the 59 Hour point there is a sharp downward fluctuation in the Amplitude.

Upon further looking it seems to be slightly less obvious 24 hours before at 35 hours running (59 - 24 = 35) 24 hours before that (After 11 hours) it is not noticable as the watch is still virtually fully wound.

This odd behaviour has shown itself in all of the 5 planes.

I have decided I need to do one further test on my 3235 equipped watch.

I will repeat the fully wound at the start test and let the watch run down to stop as usual in a DU position. But, I will set the watch exactly 12 hours wrong.
Could the strange "Dip" in amplitude be caused by the hands or date wheel causing some extra "stress" of some kind.

My watch is still on its last of the 5 tests (DD) and will be another 4 or 5 hours i expect. My watch usually runs out of "steam" after just over 71 Hours.

It is obvious that some of you think I have a "Hidden agenda" or something.
I do have an agenda, It is certainly NOT hidden either.
It is quite simply to learn what I can about my watch and enjoy every moment of ownership, which I can assure you I am doing.

I will post the results of this current DD test in a few hours and hopefully if Saxo3 is reading this he will assist by producing and posting here a graph which will show my data in graph form. (TIA Saxo3)

[CharlesN]

I had to explain to someone how I could check the time on my watch whilst it is in the dial down plane.

It really is simple. The watch and holder is on a glass table top that I have slid slightly off the table so I can go underneath and look up.
It’s true dedication to research I think .

The setup ..



The underneath view ..




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[padi56]

Your watch would be better off on your wrist and what is was designed for.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by padi56

Your watch would be better off on your wrist and what is was designed for.

Nah ,

It would be too crowded. I have this on at the moment ...




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[padi56]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

Nah ,

It would be too crowded. I have this on at the moment ...




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Not a fan of most all Patek watches good movements but just don't like there style.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by padi56

Not a fan of most all Patek watches good movements but just don't like there style.

That’s fine
If we were all the same and had the same taste life would be very boring and watches we wanted would be even harder to get as everybody would want the same.


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[Dirt]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

Some of you have been watching reading and commenting on what appears to be an obsession I may have with timing my watch and measuring its accuracy.
I assure you all there is no obsession but there is a genuine interest and fascination with how these little marvels (AKA Rolex watches) work and keep such great timekeeping.

As a lot of you know I have neen doing this for the past three weeks and posting my resuilts here so that others can also see the data i have collected.

A strange anomaly has started to show itself.

It has taken measuring my watch in all 5 positions (DU, 6U. 9U, 3U, DD) and then adding the results onto a graph (Thanks Saxo3) to begin to be spotted.

It seems at artound the 59 Hour point there is a sharp downward fluctuation in the Amplitude.

Upon further looking it seems to be slightly less obvious 24 hours before at 35 hours running (59 - 24 = 35) 24 hours before that (After 11 hours) it is not noticable as the watch is still virtually fully wound.

This odd behaviour has shown itself in all of the 5 planes.

I have decided I need to do one further test on my 3235 equipped watch.

I will repeat the fully wound at the start test and let the watch run down to stop as usual in a DU position. But, I will set the watch exactly 12 hours wrong.
Could the strange "Dip" in amplitude be caused by the hands or date wheel causing some extra "stress" of some kind.

My watch is still on its last of the 5 tests (DD) and will be another 4 or 5 hours i expect. My watch usually runs out of "steam" after just over 71 Hours.

It is obvious that some of you think I have a "Hidden agenda" or something.
I do have an agenda, It is certainly NOT hidden either.
It is quite simply to learn what I can about my watch and enjoy every moment of ownership, which I can assure you I am doing.

I will post the results of this current DD test in a few hours and hopefully if Saxo3 is reading this he will assist by producing and posting here a graph which will show my data in graph form. (TIA Saxo3)

It's simply a manifestation of how the torque is releasing out of the Mainspring and perhaps some frictional influences from the inside of the Spring barrel thrown in for good measure.

I imagine, that's precisely the reason why two Spring barrels is considered the gold standard if the watch is not anticipated to be regularly topped up and they are going for absurdly long power reserves.
I also would say that Rolex themselves would be most inclined to disregard any issues like this with their single Spring barrel as an Automatic really is intended to be worn and kept topped up except for running down a bit overnight.

Again, for me a 70 hour power reserve is little more than a novelty and in practical terms virtually superfluous as a feature

[CharlesN]

Hi Dirt,

Whilst I do agree with you that a 70 hour power reserve is a bit pointless it could possible be good for those who swap watches for the weekend.

I am NOT one of those.

I Rotate my watches sometimes for a day and sometimes for a month or so. No logic, No pattern, No rules.

The torque releasing at the same time every day is interesting. That’s why I am doing another test but with my watch set 12 hours wrong so it would show if it was a date wheel or similar causing this.

I can wait a further 3 days to see if there is any merit in my thoughts at all.
(Please don’t hold your breath for then3 days as so may well be wasting my time).

[Sub King]

Can somebody please summarize the findings of thread for an absolute moron (Me) who just recently acquired a 124060 as his first Rolex?

Should I be worried about the long-term functioning of my watch?

I’ve dreamt of owning a Submariner for over a decade and want to pass it down to my children/grandchildren as an heirloom.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Sub King

Can somebody please summarize the findings of thread for an absolute moron (Me) who just recently acquired a 124060 as his first Rolex?

Should I be worried about the long-term functioning of my watch?

I’ve dreamt of owning a Submariner for over a decade and want to pass it down to my children/grandchildren as an heirloom.

I think I should start off the reply to you with .....

DON’T WORRY

If you have very recently got your watch the problem is almost guaranteed to not be there.

To summarise ..... I and a couple of others are looking at the Power reserve and the technical changes that occur.

To test your watch if you are worried. Give it a full wind
Place it dial Up And set it to the exact correct time then monitor the time keeping once or twice a day at the most and see when it stops.
If it gets to 70 hours you know you are OK especially if the timekeeping is still good. (Dont expect the timekeeping to be good after about 60 hours)

The Precision and accuracy that have discussed are technical matters that timekeeping will show if it’s all OK or not

I am sure your children will be greatful for your watch which is perfectly fine

If you are still worried. ..... Amazon is your friend .. But a Timegrapher there. They are not expensive and can be fun.


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[Driver8]

Originally Posted by Sub King

Can somebody please summarize the findings of thread for an absolute moron (Me) who just recently acquired a 124060 as his first Rolex?

Should I be worried about the long-term functioning of my watch?

I’ve dreamt of owning a Submariner for over a decade and want to pass it down to my children/grandchildren as an heirloom.

I would just add to what CharlesN said that in addition to the investigation he and others (Saxo3, etc) are doing into power reserve, this thread has also captured evidence that some 32xx movements have been affected by an as yet unresolved issue/flaw whereby previously accurate movements start losing time after a 12 - 24 months. Some members here don't believe there's a problem : those of us who've experienced it first-hand most certainly do believe there's a problem. That said, Rolex will no doubt sort it out at some point, so even if yours is one of the unlucky ones that develops a problem, you have a 5 year warranty for it to be resolved free of charge.

[Omarion07]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

I think I should start off your reply with .....
DON’T WORRY
If you have very recently got your watch the problem is almost guaranteed to not be there

To summarise ..... I am a couple of others are looking at the Power reserve and the technical changes that occur.

To test your watch if you are worried. Give it a full wind
Place it dial Up Andrew it to exact correct time then monitor the time keeping once or twice a day at the most and see when it stops. If it gets to 70 hours you know you are OK especially if the timekeeping is still good.
The Precision and accuracy that have discussed are technical matters that timekeeping will show if it’s all IK or not

I am sure your children will be great full for your watch which is perfectly fine


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Hi Charles, I've the same concern as the gentleman above. I bought my OP 41 back in November and so far it's been running + 0.5 spd on average. I wear it constantly as it's my daily beater. Do you think the timekeeping issue is fixed with the 2020/2021 batches of 32xx movements? Thanks in advance.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Omarion07

Hi Charles, I've the same concern as the gentleman above. I bought my OP 41 back in November and so far it's been running + 0.5 spd on average. I wear it constantly as it's my daily beater. Do you think the timekeeping issue is fixed with the 2020/2021 batches of 32xx movements? Thanks in advance.

Rolex probably (More than likely) have tweaked things on the 2020/21 watches. Maybe even before that.
No one will know. Rolex would never say anything.

I myself have never come across one of the “Bad” ones.

Your timekeeping of +0.5 SPD is really good.

You might even be able to improve the timekeeping …..
Try laying your watch down in different positions at night …. Try 3 up
That does the trick for me.
If that position does not work, next night try another way.
You probably will be able to get a zero error with just a little night time positioning.

And to make you feel a little more at ease ……. I bought my 32xx movement in September 2020 and mine is absolutely fine.

If you are still worried. ..... Amazon is your friend .. But a Timegrapher there. They are not expensive and can be fun.


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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Sub King

Can somebody please summarize the findings of thread for an absolute moron (Me) who just recently acquired a 124060 as his first Rolex?

Originally Posted by Omarion07

I've the same concern as the gentleman above.

Every try to write an execute summary of this thread will probably fail due to missing overview and objectivity.

I recommend to

- read all posts from A to Z,
- try to focus on provided data and graphs,
- write your own keyword summary while reading,
- note the post numbers that you find interesting and applicable to your situation,
- filter out irrelevant posts, comments, and speculations,
- take your own data and post them if you are interested,
- don't pay too much attention to the poll numbers,
- don't get lost in technical details.

Last but not least, have fun with your watches!

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Two factors to take into consideration.
(A) Viscosity Index.
(B) Parasitic drag.

In summary.
As the lubes increase in temp the viscosity reduces/becomes physically lighter. This results in less parasitic drag.

Perhaps clearances are a factor but I would probably be inclined to regard it as a minor issue all things considered

They should use SAE 5W-30.

[CharlesN]

I have completed the last of the 5 position tests on my movement (DD)

Pretty similar results as before but if anything even better timekeeping.

This is the last of this set of test results

Hopefully saxo3 will turn it into a graph




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[peterskinner]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

Nah ,

It would be too crowded. I have this on at the moment ...




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Nice, but in my experience of the 5711, it won’t have better timekeeping than the Rolex.