Help please guys. Need advice

[Sarosh]

you make a point. But it's not as though it's a very hard to sell watch. They won't lose any business if they give me my deposit back. Atleast the watch can go to someone else who wants it. I don't know what the issue is. I wasn't even told it was a non-refundable deposit. Therefore I had no reason to believe it wouldn't be refundable.

Just unfortunate circumstances, that's all.

[Sarosh]

Just spoke to the AD guys. He has told me that this situation needs to be decided by the MD of the company and he hasn't got back to them yet. So I've been told by Wednesday I should have a decision from them. Not really much I can do between now and then I guess....

[Sarosh]

Just called Rolex HQ in London, explained the situation, told them I don't want to buy the watch then have to sell it on the secondary market, he was quite appreciatetive of that and said that they don't want that to happen either. Said he will call the AD to make sure they're handling this properly.

He said that Rolex are basically wholesalers who then distribute to the AD's so it's upto the AD to enforce their own rules in regards to purchasing watches. Told him not once I was told it was a non refundable deposit. So let's see what happens

[Ruud Van Driver]

Originally Posted by Sarosh

This is what has confused me so much too. They haven't delivered the watch to me. I don't know what the issue is. I just think they're trying to be difficult. It's annoying because I just want an answer from them. It can't be that difficult to just tell me.

If they say no then am I within my rights to call AMEX and dispute the transaction???

I would call Amex. I've been a card holder with them for 23 years and with good reason; their customer service is excellent.

I suggest you call them and tell them the story and then ask what's the best way for you to move forward (as opposed to disputing the transaction from the kick-off). They should give you some pretty solid advice.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Sarosh]

Hi Ruud,

I agree been with Amex for 10 years never had an issue with them. I will wait till the AD comes back to me then I will call Amex and explain to them. Hopefully Rolex will be able to bend their arm abit!

[Devildog]

Originally Posted by Sarosh

Haha, lol. My dad actually feels pretty bad coz he didn't have any idea this would happen.

This is what I signed and sent back to them, post-it's over the private information, but it clearly states "non-transferrable deposit agreement" I am hopeful they will just understand the matter and then return the deposit to me.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hopefully the AD will see sense, but what you have there is, to all intents and purposes, an invoice.

Its not very well drafted, however, but its drafting attempts to commit you to the purchase.

What they appear to have done is given you a pro forma invoice (so the AD doesn't have to account for the VAT on the full amount until the balance is paid)

As you've only paid a depost, the prop forma invoice has been stamped with a deposit sale agreement stamp with sections to define the details.

I read that as a committement from you to buy that watch.

But as I've said, its not very well drafted and doesn't deal with what happens if you don't or can't so you should be ok.

[Ruud Van Driver]

Originally Posted by Sarosh

Hi Ruud,

I agree been with Amex for 10 years never had an issue with them. I will wait till the AD comes back to me then I will call Amex and explain to them. Hopefully Rolex will be able to bend their arm abit!

When did you place the deposit? I wouldn't wait too long as the period in which you can dispute a charge is finite; 30 days, I think, can't remember.

I'd call them as soon as you are able. All they're doing is keeping you dangling on a chain, which is not acceptable. Why do you have to wait until Wednesday for a simple answer to a matter that is not difficult to resolve? Sorry, not cricket

[Sarosh]

Fingers crossed. Not like the watch will be sat in their safe for 5 years. Hope they see the sense. How hard is it to reverse a deposit and how much paperwork can really be involved. Not as if they've ordered the watch specifically for me as it's all allocated stock.

[Sarosh]

The AD said any such decision needs to be presided over by their MD and he hasn't yet responded to their email that they sent on Saturday when I raised the issue. So they said a couple of days.

Will call Amex now. Deposit was on 2/8/17 I know it's over 30 days but I will still call them and ask

[Sarosh]

Ruud,

Just spoke to Amex, they're going to dispute the charge and have asked me to upload the photo I attached on here as proof to state that nowhere does it mention the deposit is non-refundable. They said if the AD plays ball then no issue but if the AD doesn't give a refund they will need to use that documentation to support the claim

[Busyboy]

Admit to not reading the whole thread

But as you're UK based, surely its almost a moot point? You could sell (either) watch for more than rrp same day you buy the new one

[1William]

I may have missed it earlier in the posts but if push comes to shove could you not take the watch and then return it for a full refund? Why not go ahead and contact several Grey Dealers and see what they would give you for the watch. Also, sit and wait till Wednesday does not work for me. I would start making calls to other individuals in the company food chain. I would be polite but firm and ask for answers and a resolution. I would say if there is much more to this you need to name the AD, location of the store and who you are dealing with. Best of luck resolving this.

[Sarosh]

When I call the AD they always say it's a decision to be made higher than their pay grade and only the company director can authorise it. And that person isn't around at the time. They're all just saying the same thing

[m j b]

I think you've done the right thing by having AMEX dispute the charge. A friend of mine owns a retail store, and he says that the most annoying thing he ever has to deal with are disputes. This will get their attention.

[Sarosh]

Hi Michael,

Let's hope so because Amex said they will now contact the AD and then tell them that I've disputed the charge and on what grounds. Maybe that coupled with the fact that Rolex also called them to make sure this was being dealt with properly, will be enough for them to give me my deposit back

[DavidUK]

If you signed an agreement you will have a copy. The title may read non-transferable but the small print may say non-refundable. If so, this may be an "unfair agreement" in UK Law.
If all it says is "non-transferable" that doesn't mean non-refundable.

If your deposit was £100 or more the credit card company is equally liable with the retailer but often easier to get a pay-out from without recourse to legal action.

If you want any further help, scan the copy agreement (blanking out any names if preferred) and post it here so we can advise.

I'm a serial user of UK courts, from county court to high court, so may be able to help but the written agreement is key and I'm not sure you're telling us all that is contained in whatever you signed?

[Sarosh]

Hi david, I posted the photo of what I signed on the 2nd page of this thread. That's all I signed, paid the deposit over the phone and they sent me that paper to sign and send back to them. Whatever is written on the paper is all that's there. Clearly states "non transferrable deposit agreement"

[Sarosh]

Sorry Dave 3rd page of the thread and also above on this page

[DavidUK]

Originally Posted by Sarosh

Hi david, I posted the photo of what I signed on the 2nd page of this thread. That's all I signed, paid the deposit over the phone and they sent me that paper to sign and send back to them. Whatever is written on the paper is all that's there. Clearly states "non transferrable deposit agreement"

Can't see it. Mods may have removed? What post #?

Hmmm... if you paid over the phone, distance selling regulations apply.
Did you get a "cooling off period" stated in the paperwork?

[Sarosh]

No cooling off period at all. Just what's stated on the form. I'll PM it to you?

[DavidUK]

You say you paid the deposit over the phone. At that point a contract to purchase was made, so it was an "off-premises" or "distance" contract.

Sections 10 (1) (a) & 13 (1) (a) of the The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 state:
(See: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...lation/10/made)

"10.—(1) Before the consumer is bound by an off-premises (or distance - S.13) contract, the trader—

(a)must give the consumer the information listed in Schedule 2 in a clear and comprehensible manner..."


Then we go to Schedule 2, here (page down): http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...schedules/made

...and we find "the information" you have to be given before you are bound by the contract, thus"


"SCHEDULE 2
Information relating to distance and off-premises contracts

The information referred to in regulations 10(1) and 13(1) is (subject to the note at the end of this Schedule)—

(a)the main characteristics of the goods or services, to the extent appropriate to the medium of communication and to the goods or services;

(b)the identity of the trader (such as the trader’s trading name);

(c)the geographical address at which the trader is established and, where available, the trader’s telephone number, fax number and e-mail address, to enable the consumer to contact the trader quickly and communicate efficiently;

(d)where the trader is acting on behalf of another trader, the geographical address and identity of that other trader;

(e)if different from the address provided in accordance with paragraph (c), the geographical address of the place of business of the trader, and, where the trader acts on behalf of another trader, the geographical address of the place of business of that other trader, where the consumer can address any complaints;

(f)the total price of the goods or services inclusive of taxes, or where the nature of the goods or services is such that the price cannot reasonably be calculated in advance, the manner in which the price is to be calculated,

(g)where applicable, all additional delivery charges and any other costs or, where those charges cannot reasonably be calculated in advance, the fact that such additional charges may be payable;

(h)in the case of a contract of indeterminate duration or a contract containing a subscription, the total costs per billing period or (where such contracts are charged at a fixed rate) the total monthly costs;

(i)the cost of using the means of distance communication for the conclusion of the contract where that cost is calculated other than at the basic rate;

(j)the arrangements for payment, delivery, performance, and the time by which the trader undertakes to deliver the goods or to perform the services;

(k)where applicable, the trader’s complaint handling policy;

(l)where a right to cancel exists, the conditions, time limit and procedures for exercising that right in accordance with regulations 27 to 38;

(m)where applicable, that the consumer will have to bear the cost of returning the goods in case of cancellation and, for distance contracts, if the goods, by their nature, cannot normally be returned by post, the cost of returning the goods;

(n)that, if the consumer exercises the right to cancel after having made a request in accordance with regulation 36(1), the consumer is to be liable to pay the trader reasonable costs in accordance with regulation 36(4);

(o)where under regulation 28, 36 or 37 there is no right to cancel or the right to cancel may be lost, the information that the consumer will not benefit from a right to cancel, or the circumstances under which the consumer loses the right to cancel;

(p)in the case of a sales contract, a reminder that the trader is under a legal duty to supply goods that are in conformity with the contract;

(q)where applicable, the existence and the conditions of after-sale customer assistance, after-sales services and commercial guarantees;

(r)the existence of relevant codes of conduct, as defined in regulation 5(3)(b) of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, and how copies of them can be obtained, where applicable;

(s)the duration of the contract, where applicable, or, if the contract is of indeterminate duration or is to be extended automatically, the conditions for terminating the contract;

(t)where applicable, the minimum duration of the consumer’s obligations under the contract;

(u)where applicable, the existence and the conditions of deposits or other financial guarantees to be paid or provided by the consumer at the request of the trader;

(v)where applicable, the functionality, including applicable technical protection measures, of digital content;

(w)where applicable, any relevant compatibility of digital content with hardware and software that the trader is aware of or can reasonably be expected to have been aware of;

(x)where applicable, the possibility of having recourse to an out-of-court complaint and redress mechanism, to which the trader is subject, and the methods for having access to it.

Note: In the case of a public auction, the information listed in paragraphs (b) to (e) may be replaced with the equivalent details for the auctioneer."

If you have not had ALL this info prior to paying the deposit, especially (u) regarding details OF deposits, you are entitled to your money back.
Write to the AD, quoting the above UK Law, and advise that unless you receive your money in full within 14 days you will be commencing proceedings for recovery in the county court incurring them in court fees and interest charges.

You could try this over the phone but a letter is a better record and essential in court.

Oh, and send the same letter to Amex. They are jointly and severally liable and both they and the AD would be the joint defendants in any court action. You can recover from either of them the full amount.

See also:
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ds-or-services

[Sarosh]

That's a lot of information! Thanks David. I wasn't informed of a lot of that information. Depending on what I hear from the AD tomorrow or Wednesday I will then proceed with the above. I do just genuinely hope they see the light and just give me my deposit back, i would call them today before they close but knowing my luck they won't have "had a response from their MD"

[DavidUK]

When you start quoting the law most retailers crumble, but then you get the dumb ones who seem to think their own rules are above the law!

In reality, taking court action is a pita and will take time and money to pursue.

If they accept they didn't abide by the letter of the law they surely must relent and pay.

[Sarosh]

Well let's hope they accept and decide to give me back the money.

The chap from Rolex seemed quite concerned when I said to him that I'd have no choice but to sell the watch on the grey market if I have no choice but to buy it. He mentioned that when he spoke to the AD he spoke to the manager and he said they couldn't give me a decision on giving the deposit back because it was above their in store limit to authorise so that's why they had to email their MD to explain the situation and then they would need to approve the return of the deposit or not.....frustration

[watchwatcher]

Hopefully this will resolve favorably for you...if not, it looks like you have some options.

Best of luck.

[Sarosh]

Thanks Larry,

Yes I hope so. I've done all I can, disputed with Amex, called Rolex to inform them and now let's hope the AD has a heart! Not like it's a watch which will gather dust in their window!

[Britvic]

Hi Sarosh,

Good luck to you, not to sure have you received a PM from myself, I too planning to purchase a Hulk ! Also need to give a non transferable deposit & the AD is also in the midlands - hope is not the same branch !

[DavidUK]

Here's an added bonus.

Your balance to pay, if they pursued it, is £5,000.

You said they did not give you the pre-contract information on cancellation rights.
Unless they can prove that they did, they have committed a CRIMINAL offence under S.19 of the previous Act, here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...lation/19/made

It reads...

"Offence relating to the failure to give notice of the right to cancel

19.—(1) A trader is guilty of an offence if the trader enters into an off-premises contract to which regulation 10 applies but fails to give the consumer the information listed in paragraph (l), (m) or (n) of Schedule 2 in accordance with that regulation.

(2) A person who is guilty of an offence under paragraph (1) is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale."

Now, what do you suppose a level 5 fine is?...

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...scale-of-fines

In reality you may find your local police uninterested, so a threat to the AD that you'll call them may not be carried through as urgently as you would have hoped. But keep S.19 up your sleeve if the AD doesn't react properly to their S.10 inADequacies.

[Sarosh]

Thanks for the ammunition David. Hopeful that it won't get that far! But god knows

[DavidUK]

Originally Posted by Britvic

Hi Sarosh,

Good luck to you, not to sure have you received a PM from myself, I too planning to purchase a Hulk ! Also need to give a non transferable deposit & the AD is also in the midlands - hope is not the same branch !

As I've never heard of such a thing, I would guess they ARE one and the same.

Hey, are we naming names here or is that against TRF rules? (Check first!).

Looking for a SubC recently, 1st AD I called said "I have one in the safe. I'll reserve it for you."
2nd said "You can have next month's."

No mention of deposits! Pah!!