How can you really trust that a grey market Rolex is authentic?

[Brny11]

Ben at Arnold jewelers would not buy my watch without his in house Rolex watchmaker opening the case back. I 100% trust that shop… others, can’t speak for.

[chocopeluche]

Following through on the OPs level of scrutiny and hypotheticals, how do you know what you get from an AD is authentic ? We had a thread on here where someone bought a datejust and when they sent to RSC for service it was refused because the movement was fake. He bought new at his AD and never had it serviced until he sent it in. Story ends with the AD admitting they sold his watch and had it returned the next day afterwhich they put it back on the shelf as new, and the original buyer likely swapped the movements before returning.

I think the scary bits of the clones are the cases and maybe the dials, but the bracelets and movements are still pretty easy to tell apart from authentic, so in the real world, you probably don’t have much to worry about buying from a trusted seller.

[77T]

Originally Posted by chocopeluche

Following through on the OPs level of scrutiny and hypotheticals, how do you know what you get from an AD is authentic ? We had a thread on here where someone bought a datejust and when they sent to RSC for service it was refused because the movement was fake. He bought new at his AD and never had it serviced until he sent it in. Story ends with the AD admitting they sold his watch and had it returned the next day afterwhich they put it back on the shelf as new, and the original buyer likely swapped the movements before returning.

I think the scary bits of the clones are the cases and maybe the dials, but the bracelets and movements are still pretty easy to tell apart from authentic, so in the real world, you probably don’t have much to worry about buying from a trusted seller.

Of course that story is a form of AD trust gone wrong. I remember the narrative back when the story unfolded.

Any dealer will open and assess the watch before making an offer to a flipper or an owner who wants to sell their watch. Think about it - a $100K Platona could otherwise house a clone.


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[nosignalbmwdriver]

how do you know the reputable dealer didn’t get conned? After all they probably deal with tons of watches who’s to say one of them arent stolen. Then what? Service center claps you years later??

[SwissmadeTexan]

I have some opinions on this.

1. As said buy the seller. Some sellers think DavidSW and others like him have opened, inspected, likely polished, and pressure tested nearly every piece they take in.

2. For all the people saying the fakes are so good you can’t tell them apart I can guarantee you this simply isn’t accurate. There are many tells even on the best super clones on the market, such as finish, bracelet sel fit, bezel colors, bezel movements, weight, movement accuracy, etc etc etc that cannot be replicated accurately enough due to material, machinery, and skill restraints. There are many forums out there dedicated to these clone watches. Some people even Frankenstein them for their own enjoyment. Adding Gen crystals, Gen bezels, Gen hands, Gen date wheels etc etc. The overwhelming majority of these folks are innocent enough and just don’t have the means for Gens and find it to be a hobby of sorts. I don’t blame them and I find it interesting, legality and morality arguments aside. As long as they’re obv not trying to sell as Gen which I can tell you the huge majority aren’t doing that. Probably because they know they won’t get away with it. They’re very informed on all the things incorrect about their reps.

But yeah there is some non 0% risk these days. Especially if you’re uninformed yourself.

Point is there is a lot of info on the best fakes on the internet if you do some research as I’ve done in the last 2 years or so for this main purpose. The best super clones still don’t come close in real life to anyone who is looking at and wearing Gens day in and day out.

Do your own research. Understand the differences in these well made Chinese replica luxury watches that are hitting the market looking very similar to Gen movements. Educate yourself on what parts of the cases are different and the bracelet and the bezels etc. It’s on you to do this kinda research if you’re spending the kinda money it costs to buy Rolex’s or similar these days.

[SwissmadeTexan]

Originally Posted by underpar

This is the most regurgitated saying on this forum and the most useless. There are a lot of great sellers on the various forums but that, by no means, guarantees you will receive a 100% authentic watch.

Do you really think that because they are trustworthy people that they are qualified to open a case and tell the difference between a fake and real movement?

^ Yes most of these trusted sellers have luxury watchmakers with decades of experience on the payroll.

Do you think they take the time to remove all links to weigh them individually and make sure they have not been removed and replaced with fakes?

^ this is a stretch and no one is swaping out bracelet links. And you would be able to tell the difference without taking apart. Even on the best bracelets made right now in China.

Can they tell if a clasp has been removed and replaced with aftermarket?

^ yes there is actually a forum post on another forum that shows clasp codes and what Chinese factories those clasps are made at. Clasps are pretty easy also to tell the difference. Even on the best bracelets. There is one or 2 bracelets that are really really close to Gen but still has tells.


If buying from a grey, the concern should not be whether or not the watch is authentic but rather if the entire watch is authentic.

^ this is a mild concern but Frankensteining a watch to pass off as Gen doesn’t make a lot of sense financially. Unless the entire watch is fake except for movement. For example swaping out a green bezel insert on a Gen Hulk for a fake green bezel insert doesn’t make you much money really. And that’s if the seller gets away with it he’ll be doxed and never sell another watch.

For me, too many people have had access to a grey market watch, even if sold as "unworn".

Questions answered in the quoted post above. I’ll reiterate - educate yourself if you’re buying luxury brand watches these days. It’s only smart.

The biggest concern these days imo is getting a stolen watch. No real good universal databases to check serials on. There are a few but they’re not open to everyone and they aren’t comprehensive enough.

[uhren917]

Originally Posted by SwissmadeTexan

2. For all the people saying the fakes are so good you can’t tell them apart I can guarantee you this simply isn’t accurate. There are many tells even on the best super clones on the market, such as finish, bracelet sel fit, bezel colors, bezel movements, weight, movement accuracy, etc etc etc that cannot be replicated accurately enough due to material, machinery, and skill restraints. There are many forums out there dedicated to these clone watches. Some people even Frankenstein them for their own enjoyment. Adding Gen crystals, Gen bezels, Gen hands, Gen date wheels etc etc. The overwhelming majority of these folks are innocent enough and just don’t have the means for Gens and find it to be a hobby of sorts. I don’t blame them and I find it interesting, legality and morality arguments aside. As long as they’re obv not trying to sell as Gen which I can tell you the huge majority aren’t doing that. Probably because they know they won’t get aiway with it. They’re very informed on all the things incorrect about their reps.

But yeah there is some non 0% risk these days. Especially if you’re uninformed yourself.

Point is there is a lot of info on the best fakes on the internet if you do some research as I’ve done in the last 2 years or so for this main purpose. The best super clones still don’t come close in real life to anyone who is looking at and wearing Gens day in and day out.

Do your own research. Understand the differences in these well made Chinese replica luxury watches that are hitting the market looking very similar

Bingo. The term super clones is a misnomer. It should actually be super fakes. Clone means exact copy. They will always get it wrong.

The movement is generally where they get it wrong or miss something.

[burnthesehills]

Originally Posted by uhren917

Bingo. The term super clones is a misnomer. It should actually be super fakes. Clone means exact copy. They will always get it wrong.

The movement is generally where they get it wrong or miss something.

Plenty of vids on YouTube of experts being baffled by the accuracy of some high end clones. Yes many are eventually able to figure it out with a ton of scrutiny and expertise. But it is still shocking. It seems that the super clones in the $1,000 to $1,500 range are the real issue versus the $300 knock offs.

Would love to hear some of the “trusted sellers” chime in here. Is it a widespread problem (or fairly rare)? Is it getting worse? What checks and balances do the greys have in place to prevent this from happening, etc.

[asiparks]

Originally Posted by SwissmadeTexan

Questions answered in the quoted post above. I’ll reiterate - educate yourself if you’re buying luxury brand watches these days. It’s only smart.

The biggest concern these days imo is getting a stolen watch. No real good universal databases to check serials on. There are a few but they’re not open to everyone and they aren’t comprehensive enough.

Not disagreeing with your main points, but the copies are good enough that spotting a fake often requires having expertise in knowing exactly what to look for on the latest versions as well a genuine version in hand for comparison.
The fakes are easily good enough to fool 95% of regular buyers, especially those who still believe you can tell a fake by its “heft” or “by winding it” or it having a LEC at 6 o’clock ….

[gerryb92]

What processes are in place at an RSC that give you all the confidence that their employees will spot a fake so easily, yet a watchmaker at a grey dealer cannot?

[JRell]

Originally Posted by gerryb92

What processes are in place at an RSC that give you all the confidence that their employees will spot a fake so easily, yet a watchmaker at a grey dealer cannot?

Because they only focus on Rolex parts, plus if they say it is authentic it is.

[burnthesehills]

Originally Posted by gerryb92

What processes are in place at an RSC that give you all the confidence that their employees will spot a fake so easily, yet a watchmaker at a grey dealer cannot?

Because they actually service the watch and have the expertise.

The question is whether grey dealers take more than a passing look at the watches. They may, but nobody really seems sure to what extent.

[faldoc]

Takuya can be trusted in my experience.

Mine had stickers all over it.

[jets]

Originally Posted by burnthesehills

I keep reading articles and seeing videos about counterfeit Rolex watches including “super clones”, with many suggesting that they are extremely difficult to tell from authentic. Even by jewelers who open the case and inspect the movement.

From what I can tell, grey market dealers get these watches from all over the place. Typically from other greys and in many cases in bulk. I’m sure they give them a thorough once over, and can probably filter out most of the fakes. But it’s not unreasonable to think that some could slip through.

So even if a grey is selling what they believe is authentic, I assume there is some risk. And if one is paying the grey market premium over retail, is it worth the risk?

Just wondering everyone’s thoughts on the matter.

You can’t. Caveat emptor.


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[teck21]

Originally Posted by faldoc

Takuya can be trusted in my experience.

Mine had stickers all over it.

I’ve heard that watches can and do get restickered.

As they also do get touched up and then advertised as BNIB and so on.

Seems plausible.


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[arche3]

Can't trust 100% any Grey.

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[LVx2]

Originally Posted by burnthesehills

Simply that the clones are apparently getting good enough to fool the experts.

Illogical.

We wouldn't know about these clones if the experts hadn't been able to identify them.

It's the clones we don't know about that should worry us, lol.

[Mendota]

Originally Posted by Ensign

Many super fakes are almost impossible to distinguish from genuine Rolexes by look and feel. But a good grey will check the weight and movement. I don’t think counterfeiters have gone as far as to fake a movement and replicate the weight of the watch.

Absolutely they have. The weights and movements with many of the watches have been cloned for years. Some are literally indistinguishable from the genuine watch. In fact, the cloned 4130 Daytona movement is so good that Bob's watches said it took their certified Rolex watchmakers hours to dissect it and try to tell it apart from the genuine one. The owner of Bob's watches and Kevin O'Leary recently had a big conversation about this on their YouTube channel. They said the risk has never been higher, especially now with all of the hype and attention.

There are Frankenstein pieces out there, especially in the vintage world, using all genuine parts minus the mid case and then a superclone movement modified with genuine Rolex movement parts. Those are the ones that are even getting past the collectors.

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[David001]

I'm always concerned when I see "Buy the seller" - that's exactly how conmen and confidence tricksters work, they convince you that they're genuine and sell you something that isn't.
I wouldn't buy a car or a horse without checking it over just because I thought the guy selling it seemed like an ok guy, so why do it with a watch?
If you've known him for a long time then that's different, but we're talking about people you don't know here.

Buy the watch, the seller doesn't matter if the watch is genuine.

If you're not an expert yourself then you can lower the odds of getting ripped off by going to reputable dealers, but it's still all about the watch, focus on that, not the guy behind the counter.

And finally there is no guarantee anywhere, wasn't there a thread on here a while ago from a guy that bought a Rolex from an AD and then when it was sent back for service a couple of years later Rolex rejected it because it had a fake movement, or parts.

Edited - on the subject of horses, my friend bought a competition horse from a well known stable, a few months later he found that the horse had a medical issue and was useless for the type of competition he required it for, a lengthy legal battle ensued but the long story short is he lost, six figures down the drain. So you never really know, even if buying from a supposedly reputable source.

[carbon888]

I make sure it's from an AD and not bought from another grey dealer. Obviously buy from a good seller and then send it in for service right after so that will further confirm it's real.

[joli160]

Originally Posted by arche3

Can't trust 100% any Grey.

You can, some people here are just paranoid.
I trust 100% all the sellers in TRF’s boutique to make things right if something goes wrong.

[TomLou]

Originally Posted by Ensign

Many super fakes are almost impossible to distinguish from genuine Rolexes by look and feel. But a good grey will check the weight and movement. I don’t think counterfeiters have gone as far as to fake a movement and replicate the weight of the watch.

Who do you think is buying all those original Rolex movements ?
Today the top Frankenstein/Fake/Rolex watches cost about $5,500
and retail for $3,000 below the going price
With totally original Rolex movements costing $4,500
and real full set from an original same reference watch for about $600

[johnwigan]

Originally Posted by joli160

You can, some people here are just paranoid.
I trust 100% all the sellers in TRF’s boutique to make things right if something goes wrong.

You're a fool then. In five or ten years time, when a watch is discovered to be stolen or contain fake parts, will they still be around?

If they are still around: 'When we sold that watch the dial was genuine, you must have swapped it out'. Not much fun when you paid double or triple RRP.

Pay crazy prices if you want to but don't fool yourself.

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by johnwigan

You're a fool then. In five or ten years time, when a watch is discovered to be stolen or contain fake parts, will they still be around?

If they are still around: 'When we sold that watch the dial was genuine, you must have swapped it out'. Not much fun when you paid double or triple RRP.

Pay crazy prices if you want to but don't fool yourself.

if you are so paranoid, just send the watch to RSC for authenticity check after you purchased from AD or grey dealers.

[joli160]

Originally Posted by johnwigan

You're a fool then. In five or ten years time, when a watch is discovered to be stolen or contain fake parts, will they still be around?

And how big is that risk in reality ?
Something like getting struck by lightning
I bought 9 Rolex grey over the years and will continue to do so because I am not in the begging kissing up game nor have the patience to deal with AD’s other BS.
To each their own

[johnwigan]

Originally Posted by joli160

And how big is that risk in reality ?
Something like getting struck by lightning
I bought 9 Rolex grey over the years and will continue to do so because I am not in the begging kissing up game nor have the patience to deal with AD’s other BS.
To each their own

Because the Rolex bubble is at its peak I would say the risks are greater than ever. Particularly, the high demand dials. Big profits attract the fraudsters. Chinese manufacturers can copy just about anything these days. I think there will be many nasty surprises for people, years down the line. Stolen watches and watches with fake parts would be my biggest concern. These problems will only be discovered many years in the future. Grey dealers, flippers may or may not be aware of them. But good luck getting your money back. I wonder how many fake Tiffany dials are floating about these days.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by joli160

You can, some people here are just paranoid.

I trust 100% all the sellers in TRF’s boutique to make things right if something goes wrong.

The trf sellers are volumn sellers. They are not as careful as you think they are.

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[rambo99]

Originally Posted by johnwigan

Because the Rolex bubble is at its peak I would say the risks are greater than ever. Particularly, the high demand dials. Big profits attract the fraudsters. Chinese manufacturers can copy just about anything these days. I think there will be many nasty surprises for people, years down the line. Stolen watches and watches with fake parts would be my biggest concern. These problems will only be discovered many years in the future. Grey dealers, flippers may or may not be aware of them. But good luck getting your money back. I wonder how many fake Tiffany dials are floating about these days.

that just happened in your imagination, may be. could you give us one single case that a 6 digit rolex is fake or stolen with box and papers purchased from greys?

[spikep]

I have always wondered who trusts the endorsements in The Who’s who section. People asking random people on the internet if seller x is trustworthy. Seller x’s grandmother could reply yes and that gives you confidence to wire over $$$$?

[DaveDhc]

Originally Posted by LVx2

Illogical.

We wouldn't know about these clones if the experts hadn't been able to identify them.

It's the clones we don't know about that should worry us, lol.

Not entirely true. You can purchase the clones yourself. You don't need an expert on Rolex to purchase a clone or see their advertising photos.

So not really illogical.