32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[HiBoost]

Bas, thank you so much for your contributions in this thread and elsewhere on the forum!

It gives me a little comfort to see a freshly serviced 32xx doing "only" 208 degrees after 24 hours. My Sub41 is around 192 degrees after 24 hours. From all the expert opinions, this seems to be low (and below the spec of 200 degrees), but perhaps not as dramatically low as I had thought. I contacted RSC in the USA and they said not to send mine in based on amplitude alone because the timekeeping itself has been very good. I am waiting to see if it changes over time...

Saxo, CharlesN and others... great work keeping the thread progressing forward!

[saxo3]

Comparison, 3235 vs 3187 data, both after full winding (t = 0)

Figure 1: caliber 3235, purchase date Oct. 2017, serviced Oct. 2019, data 11.05.2021



Figure 2: caliber 3187, purchase date Sept. 2017, no service, data 11.05.2021

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Bas, thank you so much for your contributions in this thread and elsewhere on the forum!

It gives me a little comfort to see a freshly serviced 32xx doing "only" 208 degrees after 24 hours. My Sub41 is around 192 degrees after 24 hours. From all the expert opinions, this seems to be low (and below the spec of 200 degrees), but perhaps not as dramatically low as I had thought. I contacted RSC in the USA and they said not to send mine in based on amplitude alone because the timekeeping itself has been very good. I am waiting to see if it changes over time...

Saxo, CharlesN and others... great work keeping the thread progressing forward!

I wouldn't worry about it too much just yet, but it is a sign that it will slowly lose amplitude and might need a warranty service in the near future.

As for the one I freshly serviced, it will most likely gain 10-20 degrees on average once all the lubrication is settled.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by SearChart

As for the one I freshly serviced, it will most likely gain 10-20 degrees on average once all the lubrication is settled.

I have the following question concerning my 3235 data, displayed in Figure 1 (post #1262).

If one would regulate from X = +4,7 s/d to X = +1.0 s/d, how would that impact on the amplitudes in the H and V planes?

I'm not worried that my watch is running a bit fast, just curious to know what a regulation would do for the amplitudes.

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by saxo3

I have the following question concerning my 3235 data, displayed in Figure 1 (post #1262).

If one would regulate from X = +4,7 s/d to X = +1.0 s/d, how would that impact on the amplitude in the H and V planes?

I'm not worried that this watch is running fast, just curious to know what a regulation would do for the amplitudes.

Such a small regulation would have no noticeable effect on the amplitude.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by SearChart

Such a small regulation would have no noticeable effect on the amplitude.

Great, very interesting!

Where exactly do you regulate this caliber to reduce the average rate from +5 to +1 s/d.

Can you do that without dismantling movement components?

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Great, very interesting!

Where exactly do you regulate this caliber to reduce the average rate from +5 to +1 s/d.

Can you do that without dismantling movement components?

I'd adjust the two larger microstella screws on the balance wheel, by screwing the weight towards the balance wheel itself (outwards will slow down, inwards towards the staff speeds up).
Two stripes on the microstella would probably be sufficient to get it near +1, and maybe adjust the small screws if I need to get a little closer to 1.

Ideally you would want to take the automatic module off completely, this makes regulating a lot easier, you can do it with everything assembled but it's just a bit annoying having the rotor there.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by SearChart

I'd adjust the two larger microstella screws on the balance wheel, by screwing the weight towards the balance wheel itself (outwards will slow down, inwards towards the staff speeds up).
Two stripes on the microstella would probably be sufficient to get it near +1, and maybe adjust the small screws if I need to get a little closer to 1.

Ideally you would want to take the automatic module off completely, this makes regulating a lot easier, you can do it with everything assembled but it's just a bit annoying having the rotor there.

Bas, many thanks for your detailed descriptions, much appreciated!

For the same Sea-Dweller (126600), I observe since the full service in Oct 2019 a very slow increase in rates, see graph below.



Do you have an explanation for this behaviour?

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Bas, many thanks for your detailed descriptions, much appreciated!

For the same Sea-Dweller (126600), I observe since the full service in Oct 2019 a very slow increase in rates, see graph below.

Do you have an explanation for this behaviour?

I do not have a clear explanation for this, no.

Maybe lubricant settling in, or migrating away, epilame degrading, mainspring tension that varies due to age, wear pattern/external forces, premature wear of the pallet fork or any other part in the gear train, etc, etc.

Even when taking it apart and checking every thing there is to be checked you could still come up empty handed. Sometimes it is almost impossible to determine what causes a slight variation in timekeeping like this.

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

Bas,
Wow,
Firstly .. hgreat photos.
secondly, thats great info.
You now have one very happy customer I am sure.

I have noticed that you say that elves are employed to polish the platinum .... I bet you are one of the amazing elves that look after all our watches so well.

Are you saying that I have funny looking ears?

[sheldonsmith]

Originally Posted by SearChart

I'd adjust the two larger microstella screws on the balance wheel, by screwing the weight towards the balance wheel itself (outwards will slow down, inwards towards the staff speeds up).
Two stripes on the microstella would probably be sufficient to get it near +1, and maybe adjust the small screws if I need to get a little closer to 1.

Ideally you would want to take the automatic module off completely, this makes regulating a lot easier, you can do it with everything assembled but it's just a bit annoying having the rotor there.

This picture from Minus4Plus6.com might help explain:


-Sheldon

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by Driver8

I'll certainly interested to know what Bas (and/or any other watchmakers) have to say about the internal condition of later models when they start coming in for service.

Agreed.
This has always been the case

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by saxo3

To answer your good questions, one needs to understand the difference between accuracy and precision, which is illustrated in the following graph (sketch made for you!).



- There is no direct correlation between accuracy and precision.
- One can have all combinations as shown below.



- As measured (for 6 watches) at low amplitudes, the tested 32xx and 31xx still run with good precision towards the end of the power reserve, see post #1232.

- I cannot say if one will see a deterioration of precision over time. The two tested 3285 (in #1232) are not in good health but still have a precision within the range of -2/+2 s/d.

- For the 32xx movement series, Rolex SA specifies PRECISION of -2/+2 sec/day after casing together with a POWER RESERVE of approximately 70 hours, see below for 3285.


Source: https://www.rolex.com

- Rolex SA does NOT specify ACCURACY and also not TIMEKEEPING, which is logical and smart too.

- I could confirm these specification for three 3235 and 3285 movements.

- The tested 3130, 3185, 3187 calibers showed a precision of -1/+1 sec/day towards the end of the 48 hours power reserve, see post #1232.

Keeping in mind all the other movements which Rolex have made since the introduction of the "Superlative Chronometer" standard when the green tag was swapped over from the brown, were advertised and held to the same standard

[Slimpee]

My DJ41 is back from service and ready for pickup. I’ll see if its accuracy is improved. Fingers crossed!

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Slimpee

My DJ41 is back from service and ready for pickup. I’ll see if its accuracy is improved. Fingers crossed!

Then it took only 4 weeks instead of the 4 months (announced by AD).

Please post your timegrapher data here.

All 5 positions, after full winding and 24 hours later (same as in post #1259)

Don't forget to wait a bit after full winding and after each position change, for movement stabilisation.

Good luck.

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by SearChart

As promised, 3235 service data.

Watch came in with the usual symptoms, it did sustain a hard knock which gave it a decentred hairspring and thus a slightly high heat error. This was corrected as good as possible.

Amplitude and rate before the service were dramatic:



Some service pics, also replaced the balance staff, because it had a significant amplitude difference between dial up and down.





Data after service at 0hrs:



Data after 24hrs:

To add to this:

I had to replace several parts, the seconds gear had its classic wear on the pivot, I also replaced the centre gear, through which the second gear pivot goes. The balance staff because of the amplitude difference (might be a slightly damaged pivot), and the mainspring+ barrel because Rolex doesn't want us to only replace the spring on this movement..

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by SearChart

To add to this:

I had to replace several parts, the seconds gear had its classic wear on the pivot, I also replaced the centre gear, through which the second gear pivot goes. The balance staff because of the amplitude difference (might be a slightly damaged pivot), and the mainspring+ barrel because Rolex doesn't want us to only replace the spring on this movement..

Very useful additional info, thank you.

Do you also have photos of these worn-out parts? On which you can see the wear.

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Very useful additional info, thank you.

Do you also have photos of these worn-out parts? On which you can see the wear.

Unfortunately I do not, I didn't think of it during the service.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Bas, thank you so much for your contributions in this thread and elsewhere on the forum!

It gives me a little comfort to see a freshly serviced 32xx doing "only" 208 degrees after 24 hours. My Sub41 is around 192 degrees after 24 hours. From all the expert opinions, this seems to be low (and below the spec of 200 degrees), but perhaps not as dramatically low as I had thought. I contacted RSC in the USA and they said not to send mine in based on amplitude alone because the timekeeping itself has been very good. I am waiting to see if it changes over time...

Saxo, CharlesN and others... great work keeping the thread progressing forward!

HiBoost, a warm welcome back here!

You own a very interesting new Submariner 126613LB (3235) bought in January 2021.

Can you please update the data you presented here (24.01.2021) with a set of new timegrapher measurements?

Maybe not 'only' after full winding plus 24 hours later but also along the entire power reserve?

Such PR tests in DU position (or other positions too) in order to compare with several studies in this thread.

The more data points the better, as we all know and agree ...

[andschmi]

My OP41 is zero seconds off per day. Pretty happy so far.

[CharlesN]

Hi Bas,

That is great information on what you have found needed to be changed.

Very informative and helpful.

Thank you.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by andschmi

My OP41 is zero seconds off per day. Pretty happy so far.

All sounds great for you. Well done

But. Are you checking against a clock or similar by eye or are you, hopefully, checking with a timegrapher.
If you don’t have one, are you using an app on your phone such as WatchTracker.
We also need to know the history of your watch …. Such as purchase date and if any work at all has ever been done.

If you don’t have a timegrapher it might give you fun to have one …. They are inexpensive on Amazon. The model 1000 or 1900 are great. They only have one problem in use …… They are addictive.

[saxo3]

@Omarion07
Any feedback about #1258?
All clear?

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by SearChart

As for the one I freshly serviced, it will most likely gain 10-20 degrees on average once all the lubrication is settled.

For my Rolex serviced Sea-Dweller 126600 (3235) I can NOT confirm an increase in average amplitude 19 months after the service.
See graph below.



- Top: average rate (X-Rate) before/after service.

- Bottom: average amplitude (X-Amplitude) before/after service.

- The average amplitude increased from 196 degrees (before service) to 264 degrees (after service).

- Then it remains very stable since about 19 months, until today.

- The amplitude error bars for X are large because the amplitude difference in horizontal (H) and vertical (V) caliber positions are not small, which is normal for all Rolex movements.

- I consider my Sea-Dweller is running very well and stable after the Rolex service.

[Omarion07]

Originally Posted by saxo3

To answer your good questions, one needs to understand the difference between accuracy and precision, which is illustrated in the following graph (sketch made for you!).



- There is no direct correlation between accuracy and precision.
- One can have all combinations as shown below.



- As measured (for 6 watches) at low amplitudes, the tested 32xx and 31xx still run with good precision towards the end of the power reserve, see post #1232.

- I cannot say if one will see a deterioration of precision over time. The two tested 3285 (in #1232) are not in good health but still have a precision within the range of -2/+2 s/d.

- For the 32xx movement series, Rolex SA specifies PRECISION of -2/+2 sec/day after casing together with a POWER RESERVE of approximately 70 hours, see below for 3285.


Source: https://www.rolex.com

- Rolex SA does NOT specify ACCURACY and also not TIMEKEEPING, which is logical and smart too.

- I could confirm these specification for three 3235 and 3285 movements.

- The tested 3130, 3185, 3187 calibers showed a precision of -1/+1 sec/day towards the end of the 48 hours power reserve, see post #1232.

Thank you very much Saxo3 for taking the time to answer my questions and illustrate the difference between accuracy and precision. Things look good for your 32xx movements, for now.

Do you think Rolex designed the movement knowing the amplitude would be low or this is simply a by-product of the design?

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Omarion07

Thank you very much Saxo3 for taking the time to answer my questions and illustrate the difference between accuracy and precision. Things look good for your 32xx movements, for now.

Do you think Rolex designed the movement knowing the amplitude would be low or this is simply a by-product of the design?

Thanks.
Honestly, I don't know and prefer not to speculate.

[Omarion07]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Bas, thank you so much for your contributions in this thread and elsewhere on the forum!

It gives me a little comfort to see a freshly serviced 32xx doing "only" 208 degrees after 24 hours. My Sub41 is around 192 degrees after 24 hours. From all the expert opinions, this seems to be low (and below the spec of 200 degrees), but perhaps not as dramatically low as I had thought. I contacted RSC in the USA and they said not to send mine in based on amplitude alone because the timekeeping itself has been very good. I am waiting to see if it changes over time...

Saxo, CharlesN and others... great work keeping the thread progressing forward!

Absolutely agree! We're lucky to have someone like Bas on this forum to enlighten us with the nitty-gritty of the Rolex movements. And we're lucky to have Saxo3 and Charles that keep posting useful info on this thread that benefit all true watch enthusiasts!

[Omarion07]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Thanks.
Honestly, I don't know and prefer not to speculate.

That's fair enough! Let's hope my 124300 OP and your 3285 watches stay precise and in good health in the long run.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Comparison, 3235 vs 3187 data, both after full winding (t = 0)

Figure 1: caliber 3235, purchase date Oct. 2017, serviced Oct. 2019, data 11.05.2021



Figure 2: caliber 3187, purchase date Sept. 2017, no service, data 11.05.2021

To complete this post

Comparison, 3235 vs 3187 data, both after full winding (t = 0) and 24 hours later



Nothing at all to argue and very happy with both watches, the Sea-Dweller and Explorer II.

[Omarion07]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

All sounds great for you. Well done

But. Are you checking against a clock or similar by eye or are you, hopefully, checking with a timegrapher.
If you don’t have one, are you using an app on your phone such as WatchTracker.
We also need to know the history of your watch …. Such as purchase date and if any work at all has ever been done.

If you don’t have a timegrapher it might give you fun to have one …. They are inexpensive on Amazon. The model 1000 or 1900 are great. They only have one problem in use …… They are addictive.

I've 124300 OP41 and I'm going to finally purchase a timegrapher from amazon. The "timekeeping" seems to be excellent on my watch so far.. I'm comparing it to my phone clock and it seems to gain no more than 7 seconds per week which is brilliant for me. The watch was purchased in November of last year.