Is interest in AP sinking?

[T.Stanley]

Originally Posted by mickyd329

never mind. I think i'd rather go talk to the wall instead now.

lol.

[APhound]

Not good enough, Messikens

[SMD]

Originally Posted by WatchingAustin

Sweet two Code's and 3 Royal Oaks. You are kind of proving my point about the same case shape across their watch line up.

Way to move those goal posts. The point he was responding to was you saying AP didn’t focus on complications.

[VogelPhoenix]

Originally Posted by messikens

I'd question if you're in the same league, so why be angry about it?

If you need something to be angry about might as well get annoyed at people you don't know buying watches you don't like.

[Johndong888]

Originally Posted by mickyd329

For starters, I'm using only one source, Watch Charts for consistency sake. I'm not picking Chrono prices for one reference and Moda for another to skew the numbers in my favor.

AP and PP have very different business models. Most of PP's production is non sport models and that is their mainstay. That mainstay is mostly trading far below MSRP. AP mostly produces sport watches, RO's in this case and that is their mainstay. That mainstay is trading at or above MSRP. So, which brand is retaining better value as a whole? You need to look at what each brand is built around and compare as a whole.

If PP produced complicated sport models, would it destroy AP in secondary market value as you state? It doesn't matter because PP just doesn't and there is no point in what if's. PP produces far too few sport models in the overall production volume, thus creating more scarcity and the secondary market prices reflect it. If PP started producing the same % of their production in sport models with complications like AP, will it still destroy AP in secondary market values? You argument is a moot point as we won't know because PP will never go that route according to Thierry Stern.

I don't understand your stance on only comparing ROO/Codes to Nautilus/Aquanaut to skew the value numbers in your favor. You also do not take into consideration the scarcity or lack thereof effect on how many sport models each brand produces. I personally think AP RO's value retention has faired better than I thought considering it's 60% of AP's production and the large price increases it has gone through during the COVID craze.

I get that you don't like AP and that's fine by me, but you don't need to try and convince everyone else. You just need to convince yourself and not spend money with the brand. You can sh*t on AP all you want, but AP collectors will continue to collect AP's.

I still don't understand the value retention debates. Watch collecting used to be a hobby where you bought watches you enjoyed, losing value was a given, and you went into it fully understanding that. I miss the old days on TRF where value retention wasn't even part of the conversation.

Well said!

[huncho]

Originally Posted by VogelPhoenix

If you need something to be angry about might as well get annoyed at people you don't know buying watches you don't like.

i'll never understand what it is about AP that brings out all this toxicity. you don't really see it with any other brand on here besides maybe RM

even funnier is that rolex's lineup is far from diverse too but gets 0 hate for it because "it works"

i remember someone made a thread about which of the holy trinity has to go and of course someone who doesn't even own an AP went on a rant about travis scott lol

[Octagon Guy]

Originally Posted by WatchingAustin

Sweet two Code's and 3 Royal Oaks. You are kind of proving my point about the same case shape across their watch line up.

Isn't most watch brands housing their movements in the very same case shape which is round?

[gretch6364]

Originally Posted by Octagon Guy

Isn't most watch brands housing their movements in the very same case shape which is round?

Right? Everyone hammer AP on their bezel and case shape being consistent…but Rolex is basically the same exact case with a different bezel for every single one of their watches.

[Vince_76]

Originally Posted by huncho

i'll never understand what it is about AP that brings out all this toxicity. you don't really see it with any other brand on here besides maybe RM

even funnier is that rolex's lineup is far from diverse too but gets 0 hate for it because "it works"

i remember someone made a thread about which of the holy trinity has to go and of course someone who doesn't even own an AP went on a rant about travis scott lol

100% agree when it comes to diversity. Rolex is just as redundant if not more - they literally cycle the oyster case (DJ, DD, SD Daytona) and the diver case or whatever it’s called (sub, gmt).

Regarding pricing, I genuinely think every brand has materially more to fall, and AP may be among the hardest hit. I’m totally fine with that and in fact prefer it to a reasonable degree. I want to get my watches from a boutique with reasonable/no wait times. Any reversion to the historical mean will be much welcome.

I do believe Ilaria will follow through and in fact limit growth for the sake of value retention. At the end of the day, all we can do is speculate. I can’t control market forces, just hope we all can reasonably get what we want and exterminate the flipping/hype culture that has made watch culture a bit cringe IMO

[WatchingAustin]

Originally Posted by huncho

i'll never understand what it is about AP that brings out all this toxicity. you don't really see it with any other brand on here besides maybe RM

even funnier is that rolex's lineup is far from diverse too but gets 0 hate for it because "it works"

i remember someone made a thread about which of the holy trinity has to go and of course someone who doesn't even own an AP went on a rant about travis scott lol

I'd say from the responses I've received, the AP lovers unable to see reality are just as toxic as the AP detractors unable to see reality.

Originally Posted by Octagon Guy

Isn't most watch brands housing their movements in the very same case shape which is round?

I agree with this somewhat, but to me AP's variation of cases is even more limited compared to others. For example, Patek has many similar round case watches but with different lug styles, lending to a different looking watch. Rolex is another offender, but they get around it by having a few different bezel and bracelet options.

But this is a thread around AP's brand image, and I think if someone has limited funds and time and could only invest in one brand, they could easily lose interest in AP or scratch the itch quickly if they decide they are ok with one of that style watch. Especially if you have to buy multiple watches you don't want to get the one you do want.

Anyways, I'll take my 15202 and excuse myself from this thread. It is more a place for AP die hards to pretend they don't know what diversity is and dog other brands. Or for that guy to talk about how amazing Patek is

[ts3]

Originally Posted by WatchingAustin

Sorry, I meant for it to be funny. I don't care what people like or spend money on. I made the comment to be a distillation of the reason I think AP is faltering as a brand currently. I should have said things more literally.

AP as a brand is not very interesting to me (maybe others?), because their end game watch portfolio is not that strong. They seem to be forgoing ultra complicated movements and instead are making pop culture collab watches as their end game collector watches. AP has limited case designs (currently 4?), and their most coveted watches are low to no complications. They have 3 GMT's in their current catalog. Additionally, the normal wealthy buyer is getting fatigued with the buying 'journey' and losing interest in a Royal Oak by having 3 CODEs be the prerequisite.

If someone were new and wanted to invest in a brand and reach the highest level, AP doesn't seem to have much payoff by way of diversity or truly high-end watchmaking. If you wanted a gemset watch, there are better ones out. If you wanted a tourbillion, they have multi-axis ones now. Unless you love Marvel or having a bunch of hexagonal bezels in the watch box, why focus on AP?

AP built a brand off a Gerald Genta's classic design but now they are mismanaging that, and I think that is why there is a slight decrease in the brand perception.

Just my 2 cents.

Just before you go, have another look at that 15202 of yours. Fingers crossed that the bezel is octagonal...

[GW44]

Originally Posted by mickyd329

For starters, I'm using only one source, Watch Charts for consistency sake. I'm not picking Chrono prices for one reference and Moda for another to skew the numbers in my favor.

AP and PP have very different business models. Most of PP's production is non sport models and that is their mainstay. That mainstay is mostly trading far below MSRP. AP mostly produces sport watches, RO's in this case and that is their mainstay. That mainstay is trading at or above MSRP. So, which brand is retaining better value as a whole? You need to look at what each brand is built around and compare as a whole.

If PP produced complicated sport models, would it destroy AP in secondary market value as you state? It doesn't matter because PP just doesn't and there is no point in what if's. PP produces far too few sport models in the overall production volume, thus creating more scarcity and the secondary market prices reflect it. If PP started producing the same % of their production in sport models with complications like AP, will it still destroy AP in secondary market values? You argument is a moot point as we won't know because PP will never go that route according to Thierry Stern.

I don't understand your stance on only comparing ROO/Codes to Nautilus/Aquanaut to skew the value numbers in your favor. You also do not take into consideration the scarcity or lack thereof effect on how many sport models each brand produces. I personally think AP RO's value retention has faired better than I thought considering it's 60% of AP's production and the large price increases it has gone through during the COVID craze.

I get that you don't like AP and that's fine by me, but you don't need to try and convince everyone else. You just need to convince yourself and not spend money with the brand. You can sh*t on AP all you want, but AP collectors will continue to collect AP's.

I still don't understand the value retention debates. Watch collecting used to be a hobby where you bought watches you enjoyed, losing value was a given, and you went into it fully understanding that. I miss the old days on TRF where value retention wasn't even part of the conversation.

Well said, I concur.

[supernova]

Sinking no, cooling yes. And I'm good with that since I'm a collector and not a speculator.

The innovation at AP comes in the form of their movements (not so much their cases), they constantly come out with new movements that push watchmaking further. For Rolex they use the same movement in multiple models, for example every iteration of the Sub has the same movement, whereas ROs have a large number of different movements.

Comparing AP to Rolex or PP is futile, each brand has their own style on how they make their watches and cohort of customers they are trying to go after.

[vliberman]

Originally Posted by supernova

Sinking no, cooling yes. And I'm good with that since I'm a collector and not a speculator.

The innovation at AP comes in the form of their movements (not so much their cases), they constantly come out with new movements that push watchmaking further. For Rolex they use the same movement in multiple models, for example every iteration of the Sub has the same movement, whereas ROs have a large number of different movements.

Comparing AP to Rolex or PP is futile, each brand has their own style on how they make their watches and cohort of customers they are trying to go after.

Can u please suggest a movement that AP came out with that pushed watchmaking further? What current models it is being used in? Please go into as many details as necessary. Thank u

[huncho]

Originally Posted by vliberman

Can u please suggest a movement that AP came out with that pushed watchmaking further? What current models it is being used in? Please go into as many details as necessary. Thank u

3132 on their double balance wheel open worked
5133 on the RD2 ultra thin PC - "To reach this remarkable thinness, the movement's perpetual calendar functions, normally on three different levels, have been re-arranged and merged into one single layer of no more than 0.35mm in thickness. Audemars Piguet developed two patented innovations: the end-of-the-month cam has been integrated to the date wheel, while the month cam has been combined to the month wheel."

not too familiar with their concept line but i'm sure they've done some interesting stuff there

also just the extremely high levels of craftsmanship that go into any of their skeletonized watches, something no one else is doing on their level

[supernova]

Originally Posted by vliberman

Can u please suggest a movement that AP came out with that pushed watchmaking further? What current models it is being used in? Please go into as many details as necessary. Thank u

When I mention pushing watching making further, I didn’t necessarily mean new ways to build movements etc., but more so living up to their haute horology history with their movements (maybe poor choice of words on my part).

I think the new flying tourbillon I tried on was pretty impressive and not something Rolex would ever make, yes it’s just another ROO, but the movement is what is to be marveled. Their ultra thin perpetual and as above their open work movements are also very impressive (I know not the thinnest). Which is why I reiterate comparing AP to Rolex is incorrect.




I’m a fan and own both brands. I just think it’s unfair for cliche labeling of AP as the “one trick pony”.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[vliberman]

Originally Posted by huncho

3132 on their double balance wheel open worked
5133 on the RD2 ultra thin PC - "To reach this remarkable thinness, the movement's perpetual calendar functions, normally on three different levels, have been re-arranged and merged into one single layer of no more than 0.35mm in thickness. Audemars Piguet developed two patented innovations: the end-of-the-month cam has been integrated to the date wheel, while the month cam has been combined to the month wheel."

not too familiar with their concept line but i'm sure they've done some interesting stuff there

also just the extremely high levels of craftsmanship that go into any of their skeletonized watches, something no one else is doing on their level

Sorry to put you on a spot but I think u understood my point. Terms are thrown around without giving it much thought. Once provoked, not much comes to mind.

Now how is that brand that owns APRP makes pedestrian movements of questionable quality and sells it to collectors. That is another reason AP is sinking!

You keep on referencing Rolex, well look into technology behind their movements. Rolex constantly innovates whereas AP sells u modular chronographs in a guise of ROO…

[huncho]

Originally Posted by vliberman

Sorry to put you on a spot but I think u understood my point. Terms are thrown around without giving it much thought. Once provoked, not much comes to mind.

Now how is that brand that owns APRP makes pedestrian movements of questionable quality and sells it to collectors. That is another reason AP is sinking!

You keep on referencing Rolex, well look into technology behind their movements. Rolex constantly innovates whereas AP sells u modular chronographs in a guise of ROO…

where does rolex constantly innovate? their last innovation was the sky dweller and it wasn't exactly an innovation. you could also argue the james cameron was innovative. the rest of their lineup has been the same for decades. rolex is the definition of don't fix what's not broken

[vliberman]

Originally Posted by huncho

where does rolex constantly innovate? their last innovation was the sky dweller and it wasn't exactly an innovation. you could also argue the james cameron was innovative. the rest of their lineup has been the same for decades. rolex is the definition of don't fix what's not broken

Well, let’s start with the idea that Rolex constantly innovates within existing models. For example, it would introduce a new concept into the existing model without announcing it. I am going to reference a few articles that describe both innovations and said concept. You are welcome to do likewise on AP as I would like to educate myself.

https://www.the1916company.com/blog/...novations.html

https://quillandpad.com/2023/09/05/t...years-reprise/

https://www.hodinkee. com/articles/a...alance-springs

https://bestwallclock.com/rolexs-gam...innovations-4/

Now, I hope you help me to identify movement related innovations that AP successfully introduced into its mainstream models the way Rolex did.

[Watchman001]

Originally Posted by vliberman

Well, let’s start with the idea that Rolex constantly innovates within existing models. For example, it would introduce a new concept into the existing model without announcing it. I am going to reference a few articles that describe both innovations and said concept. You are welcome to do likewise on AP as I would like to educate myself.

https://www.the1916company.com/blog/...novations.html

https://quillandpad.com/2023/09/05/t...years-reprise/

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/a-...alance-springs

https://bestwallclock.com/rolexs-gam...innovations-4/

Yes, lots of innovations. New color bezel, PM vs steel DSSD, etc. Where is Rolex tourbillon? How about perpetual calendar? Maybe a GMT chrono, or split second chrono? Minute repeater?

Give me a break.

[Mr.GL]

Originally Posted by vliberman

Well, let’s start with the idea that Rolex constantly innovates within existing models. For example, it would introduce a new concept into the existing model without announcing it. I am going to reference a few articles that describe both innovations and said concept. You are welcome to do likewise on AP as I would like to educate myself.

https://www.the1916company.com/blog/...novations.html

https://quillandpad.com/2023/09/05/t...years-reprise/

https://www.hodinkee. com/articles/a...alance-springs

https://bestwallclock.com/rolexs-gam...innovations-4/

Now, I hope you help me to identify movement related innovations that AP successfully introduced into its mainstream models the way Rolex did.

Let's put technical ability aside, which we have minimal knowledge of. Let's discuss provenance, AP created the first minute repeater in 1892 and the first luxury steel watch on 1972.

Watch-making is all about innovation and history .



Sent from my SM-F936B using Tapatalk

[Mr.GL]

Originally Posted by Mr.GL

Let's put technical ability aside, which we have minimal knowledge of. Let's discuss provenance, AP created the first minute repeater in 1892 and the first luxury steel watch on 1972.

Watch-making is all about innovation and history .



Sent from my SM-F936B using Tapatalk

We are fans of certain brands, and we are entitled to our opinion,which is what this forum is all about.

To criticise a brand with such a long history is really warranted .

Sent from my SM-F936B using Tapatalk

[vliberman]

Originally Posted by Watchman001

Yes, lots of innovations. New color bezel, PM vs steel DSSD, etc. Where is Rolex tourbillon? How about perpetual calendar? Maybe a GMT chrono, or split second chrono? Minute repeater?

Give me a break.

If u bothered to look at reference materials rather than shoot from the hip, you would have gained a detailed knowledge on innovation wrt Rolex. Now, none of the items u listed would be innovation by AP and in most cases innovation at all. Tourbillon was introduced in 1795 by Bruguet. Perpetual Calendar in 1762 by Musge, Minute Repetear by Quare circa 1700 and so on.,

Do u know what was introduced recently? Silicon hairspring, care to guess by who? That is right, Rolex. PP now mostly exclusively uses silicon and so on. Yet some collectors still perceive that Rolex is all about color of bezel.

[vliberman]

Originally Posted by Mr.GL

Let's put technical ability aside, which we have minimal knowledge of. Let's discuss provenance, AP created the first minute repeater in 1892 and the first luxury steel watch on 1972.

Watch-making is all about innovation and history .



Sent from my SM-F936B using Tapatalk

AP didn’t create first minute repeater, where may I ask u get that idea? First SS luxury watch? If u remotely follow auctions, there was recently a great example of 1940s PP in SS I bid on…

https://www.phillips.com/detail/pate...pe/NY080123/50

I agree with u on minimal technical knowledge, but I also wonder if we know provenance, history and horological innovation..

Info on MR:

according to the authors of seminal works in horology, it was the English watchmaker Daniel Quare (1649-1724) who invented the minute repeater. This type of innovation undoubtedly aroused the interest of the elites and prompted the proliferation of further developments. Thomas Mudge (1715-1794) is said to have created an improved version of the minute repeater. He was the apprentice of George Graham and a contemporary of John Harrison, and became famous as the inventor of the lever escapement. Mudge’s minute repeater was a definite improvement, but this highly complicated mechanism was to undergo further refining in the workshop of the great Abraham-Louis Breguet, who developed gongs. Their thinness and location on the edge of the movement, made it possible to reduce the thickness of the cases and therefore give the pieces a perfectly contemporary and fashionable look.

[AperolSpritz]

Tbh I get the one trick-pony argument on AP with the RO case shape being the base of most of the offering...

But seriously, what's the difference between a Submariner, A GMT a SeaDweller etc...

For my 2 cents, the biggest mistake AP made was to close the Jules Audemars line. They should have rather rejuvinated and invested in that offering rather than launching the Code product which is somewhere in between smart and casual. But I get they didn't want to purely copy PPs positioning and strategy.

But it was a mistake. Not the only one FHB did but probably the biggest. Many people praise FHB, he just had the chance of ridding a bull market but now AP will pay for his many mistakes and for diminishing the brand (which is subjective but so obvious to me...)

[Vince_76]

Originally Posted by AperolSpritz

Tbh I get the one trick-pony argument on AP with the RO case shape being the base of most of the offering...

But seriously, what's the difference between a Submariner, A GMT a SeaDweller etc...

For my 2 cents, the biggest mistake AP made was to close the Jules Audemars line. They should have rather rejuvinated and invested in that offering rather than launching the Code product which is somewhere in between smart and casual. But I get they didn't want to purely copy PPs positioning and strategy.

But it was a mistake. Not the only one FHB did but probably the biggest. Many people praise FHB, he just had the chance of ridding a bull market but now AP will pay for his many mistakes and for diminishing the brand (which is subjective but so obvious to me...)

Great point on the Jules Audemars line. AP used to make some of the best dress watches in the business and that line was no joke. would have loved to seen that reignited rather than the code.

What’s the closest thing AP has to a dress watch now? A gold RO on an alligator strap maybe.

[Mr.GL]

Originally Posted by vliberman

AP didn’t create first minute repeater, where may I ask u get that idea? First SS luxury watch? If u remotely follow auctions, there was recently a great example of 1940s PP in SS I bid on…

https://www.phillips.com/detail/pate...pe/NY080123/50

I agree with u on minimal technical knowledge, but I also wonder if we know provenance, history and horological innovation..

Info on MR:

according to the authors of seminal works in horology, it was the English watchmaker Daniel Quare (1649-1724) who invented the minute repeater. This type of innovation undoubtedly aroused the interest of the elites and prompted the proliferation of further developments. Thomas Mudge (1715-1794) is said to have created an improved version of the minute repeater. He was the apprentice of George Graham and a contemporary of John Harrison, and became famous as the inventor of the lever escapement. Mudge’s minute repeater was a definite improvement, but this highly complicated mechanism was to undergo further refining in the workshop of the great Abraham-Louis Breguet, who developed gongs. Their thinness and location on the edge of the movement, made it possible to reduce the thickness of the cases and therefore give the pieces a perfectly contemporary and fashionable look.

Sent from my SM-F936B using Tapatalk

[VogelPhoenix]

Originally Posted by vliberman

can u please suggest a movement that ap came out with that pushed watchmaking further? What current models it is being used in? Please go into as many details as necessary. Thank u

rd#4.

[VogelPhoenix]

Originally Posted by vliberman

Info on MR:

according to the authors of seminal works in horology, it was the English watchmaker Daniel Quare (1649-1724) who invented the minute repeater. This type of innovation undoubtedly aroused the interest of the elites and prompted the proliferation of further developments. Thomas Mudge (1715-1794) is said to have created an improved version of the minute repeater. He was the apprentice of George Graham and a contemporary of John Harrison, and became famous as the inventor of the lever escapement. Mudge’s minute repeater was a definite improvement, but this highly complicated mechanism was to undergo further refining in the workshop of the great Abraham-Louis Breguet, who developed gongs. Their thinness and location on the edge of the movement, made it possible to reduce the thickness of the cases and therefore give the pieces a perfectly contemporary and fashionable look.

What was the Chat GPT prompt you used for that?

[vliberman]

Originally Posted by VogelPhoenix

What was the Chat GPT prompt you used for that?

https://www.watchonista.com/articles...inute-repeater