The Official Formula One Thread!

[Speedbird-1]

Hungaroring's going to be very interesting.

Then on to Spa.....can't wait to see them side by side attempting to go through
Eau Rouge...in the rain.

.......after you Claude.

[daveathall]

One has to wonder if the "indignation" (feigned or otherwise) shown by Red Bull is designed to intimidate the race marshals the next time something happens. "Look Hamilton again," or "What do you mean giving Max a penalty? Wasn't as bad as Hamilton," sort of thing.

Race tactics aren't just on the track, anything to get an edge.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by daveathall

One has to wonder if the "indignation" (feigned or otherwise) shown by Red Bull is designed to intimidate the race marshals the next time something happens. "Look Hamilton again," or "What do you mean giving Max a penalty? Wasn't as bad as Hamilton," sort of thing.

Race tactics aren't just on the track, anything to get an edge.

I have no doubt RBR were trying to intimidate the marshals Dave.

Did I also see Toto running in the wrong direction before being given directions to the stewards?

[Speedbird-1]

Originally Posted by Andad

I have no doubt RBR were trying to intimidate the marshals Dave.

Did I also see Toto running in the wrong direction before being given directions to the stewards?

I must have missed that, maybe distracted by Mr Horner whinging to to the media. I suppose Herr Mateschitz is more likely to hear that conversation.
Maybe Christian would have better spent his time with Toto and the stewards.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by daveathall

Race tactics aren't just on the track, anything to get an edge.

Yup. Of course there are other ways to win, legally, by using brainpower and ingenuity.

And that's how, legally via the brilliance of Ross Brawn's team, Jenson Button and that lil new startup earned a Driver's Championship.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

And that's how, legally via the brilliance of Ross Brawn's team, Jenson Button and that lil new startup earned a Driver's Championship.

I totally agree my friend.

[jatco]

Who got the 1 point for fastest lap at Silverstone since Perez finished outside of the top 10...?
Or did he get it but not awarded it..
.
'There is one bonus point available for the driver who records the fastest lap of the race. However, they must also finish in the top 10 in order to qualify for the point. This is to stop all the drivers outside the top 10 pitting for fresh tyres in the last few laps in an effort to set a fastest lap, which would compromise the integrity of the race.'

[sillo]

Originally Posted by jatco

Who got the 1 point for fastest lap at Silverstone since Perez finished outside of the top 10...?
Or did he get it but not awarded it..
.
'There is one bonus point available for the driver who records the fastest lap of the race. However, they must also finish in the top 10 in order to qualify for the point. This is to stop all the drivers outside the top 10 pitting for fresh tyres in the last few laps in an effort to set a fastest lap, which would compromise the integrity of the race.'

If the driver who is outside the top 10 has the fastest lap it goes into the ether. Which is why RB decided to forgo a points finish just to take the extra point away from Lewis.

[jatco]

Originally Posted by sillo

If the driver who is outside the top 10 has the fastest lap it goes into the ether. Which is why RB decided to forgo a points finish just to take the extra point away from Lewis.

um.. so giving up 4 or possible 6 points to take away 1 more for Lewis was the strategy...

[bibbi]

Originally Posted by AshAP

It’s clear to see in the replays that Verstappen turns in expecting Lewis to concede and brake, only Lewis didn’t brake. Verstappen is aggressive and a danger to every driver on the grid and now he’s proven that he’s also a danger to himself.


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+1
Verstappen is an aggressive and dangerous driver. Which I LIKE actually.

But feel so much disappointed with all the cry from RBR team and Verstappen himself! Is he an F1 driver or a crying boy?

How many times he pushed others outside the track??? At Copse had so much space to leave enough track for Ham.

And no one seems to acknowledge that just before Copse Ham tried to take Ver on the outside. But what did Ver do then??? He closed Ham’s way. So Ham went to the right.

This is a racing incident. For me - with major fault on Ver. For others - blame it on Ham.

If Ver doesn’t accept the racing risk - he’s young enough to become a bookkeeper. Or assume some other profession outside of F1.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Andad

Did I also see Toto running in the wrong direction before being given directions to the stewards?

When Masi answered Tito’s query about reading his email, and Masi said he doesn’t during a race, Toto bolted out of the garage and went the wrong way. A Sky Sports reporter redirected Toto to the right stairs.

Originally Posted by daveathall

One has to wonder if the "indignation" (feigned or otherwise) shown by Red Bull is designed to intimidate the race marshals the next time something happens.

I’m guessing you mean the Stewards, Dave?

They have heard it all by the time they become an international Steward. They’ve seen that movie before and know how it ends.


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[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by daveathall

One has to wonder if the "indignation" (feigned or otherwise) shown by Red Bull is designed to intimidate the race marshals the next time something happens. "Look Hamilton again," or "What do you mean giving Max a penalty? Wasn't as bad as Hamilton," sort of thing.

Race tactics aren't just on the track, anything to get an edge.

No kidding, I was absolutely surprised at how whiny Horner was with that incident. It seemed exaggerated and pretentious just to rouse emotions and pity.
But I guess it’s to be expected.

Originally Posted by bibbi

+1
Verstappen is an aggressive and dangerous driver. Which I LIKE actually.

But feel so much disappointed with all the cry from RBR team and Verstappen himself! Is he an F1 driver or a crying boy?

How many times he pushed others outside the track??? At Copse had so much space to leave enough track for Ham.

And no one seems to acknowledge that just before Copse Ham tried to take Ver on the outside. But what did Ver do then??? He closed Ham’s way. So Ham went to the right.

This is a racing incident. For me - with major fault on Ver. For others - blame it on Ham.

If Ver doesn’t accept the racing risk - he’s young enough to become a bookkeeper. Or assume some other profession outside of F1.

People really think this reckless daring he displays is some form of talent expression. He’s so “good”, “exciting”, “fresh blood”……
I’ve spent the last couple years living in suspense everytime Max gets next to anyone in a fight for position, because more often than not it would end in a crash.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by 77T

I’m guessing you mean the Stewards, Dave?

Yes, I stand corrected, my friend.

[Sleepy996]

Looks like a chance of rain on Saturday for quali but pretty good the rest of the weekend.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by daveathall

One has to wonder if the "indignation" (feigned or otherwise) shown by Red Bull is designed to intimidate the race marshals the next time something happens. "Look Hamilton again," or "What do you mean giving Max a penalty? Wasn't as bad as Hamilton," sort of thing.

Race tactics aren't just on the track, anything to get an edge.

To be fair, Toto and Horner have both given public statements at the rate of 2-3 per day since the incident. There is definitely jockeying for position off track by these principals in order to sway opinion.

[77T]

Just in case you haven’t seen what was in Toto’s email to Michael Masi…

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...Lgg5DgwrL.html

Here in US racing we are essentially the same but we’re a more GT/Prototype based sport here so there is a bit less danger.


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[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by 77T

Just in case you haven’t seen what was in Toto’s email to Michael Masi…

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...Lgg5DgwrL.html

Here in US racing we are essentially the same but we’re a more GT/Prototype based sport here so there is a bit less danger.


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I mean, those are the rules, very objective. Seems in that light you can then objectively say who’s at fault or more to blame.
Looking at the way Max cut Lewis off at the previous corners and Lewis backed off, this was now Max’s turn to back off, but that’s not his style, it’s either you back off or we’ll crash, he’s fine with that attitude.

[Devildog]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

I mean, those are the rules, very objective. Seems in that light you can then objectively say who’s at fault or more to blame.
Looking at the way Max cut Lewis off at the previous corners and Lewis backed off, this was now Max’s turn to back off, but that’s not his style, it’s either you back off or we’ll crash, he’s fine with that attitude.

Agreed.

What also gets forgotten is that Max was moving forwards relative to Lewis at the point of contact and hence travelling at higher speed. The front portion of his right rear tyre hitting the front of Lewis' front tyre. Lewis simply did not barrel into Max, or attempt to tap him off the track in some form of pit type manoeuvre as many have suggested.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

To be fair, Toto and Horner have both given public statements at the rate of 2-3 per day since the incident. There is definitely jockeying for position off track by these principals in order to sway opinion.

It's not to sway opinion. Opinion doesn't matter now, it is to intimidate the Stewards if similar happens in further races. The race had been won or lost, nothing will change that. This is posturing (by both sides) for future events.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

I mean, those are the rules, very objective. Seems in that light you can then objectively say who’s at fault or more to blame.
Looking at the way Max cut Lewis off at the previous corners and Lewis backed off, this was now Max’s turn to back off, but that’s not his style, it’s either you back off or we’ll crash, he’s fine with that attitude.

The citation Toto provided and the diagrams are passing guidelines rather than rules. They describe an accord among drivers of safe vs. unsafe passing - and officials should abide by the guidelines.

But I agree this is a knife-edge decision based on driver actions and decisions happening in tenth’s of a second. We can’t infer intent, and shouldn’t when we’re taking days to discuss many minutes of freeze-frame video replays and images. We always want certainty, but in many incidents the point in time when a driver turns-in to navigate such a high speed corner means the other driver behind is responsible to avoid contact. HAM had the room to his right because he chose not to go to the apex (Stewards noted he was off the apex). I think that fact better informed the Stewards in the final analysis.

Officials can’t comment until after MB’s and RBR’s appeal period expires this coming Monday - but Masi has said he’s not intimidated by the posturing.


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[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by 77T

The citation Toto provided and the diagrams are passing guidelines rather than rules. They describe an accord among drivers of safe vs. unsafe passing - and officials should abide by the guidelines.

But I agree this is a knife-edge decision based on driver actions and decisions happening in tenth’s of a second. We can’t infer intent, and shouldn’t when we’re taking days to discuss many minutes of freeze-frame video replays and images. We always want certainty, but in many incidents the point in time when a driver turns-in to navigate such a high speed corner means the other driver behind is responsible to avoid contact. HAM had the room to his right because he chose not to go to the apex (Stewards noted he was off the apex). I think that fact better informed the Stewards in the final analysis.

Officials can’t comment until after MB’s and RBR’s appeal period expires this coming Monday - but Masi has said he’s not intimidated by the posturing.


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Really appreciate your input in this discussion.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by daveathall

It's not to sway opinion. Opinion doesn't matter now, it is to intimidate the Stewards if similar happens in further races. The race had been won or lost, nothing will change that. This is posturing (by both sides) for future events.

Yes and no. I agree that it's for future consideration when applying penalties, but Red Bull has just today filed for a formal review from the FIA on what was ruled at the time of the incident by the race stewards. If the FIA deems the new evidence presented by Red Bull to be material, then their opinion on the matter will be taken into account.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...rIkpiyGA68t0bw

On another note, and this is just pure speculation on my part, but I'm starting to get the feeling Horner's comments in the press regarding the amount the money the damage repair costs is telling. Aside from the $1.8m damage Hamilton caused, Horner was extremely vocal after the Bacu race when Max was leading the race comfortably and suffered a tire blow out with just 6 laps remaining. He went on about Pirelli and how Max wasn't the only one to suffer a blow out on the fast straight and how Pirelli first indicated the tires were cut but then changed their story to teams set up as the problems etc.


My point with this is it seems that Horner seems preoccupied with costs as it relates to damage. I'm wondering if their margin of error as it relates to the budget is razor thin and don't know if RBR will be able to get to the end of the season within their allotted budget? They're still developing the 2021 car and any damage will come off the top to say nothing of the fact that engine allotments may come into play toward the end of the season. The engine that was in Max's car for Silverstone was only 3 races old and now it's a complete write off. Max will have to take grid spot penalties in November or December should they run out of engines.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

My point with this is it seems that Horner seems preoccupied with costs as it relates to damage. I'm wondering if their margin of error as it relates to the budget is razor thin and don't know if RBR will be able to get to the end of the season within their allotted budget?

Interesting. Wonder how many more crashes RBR can handle before they have to stop participating in races during 2021??? Have other teams crashed more and still ok financially?

Maybe RBR is winning in the early races due to their (eventually realized) irresponsible spending and are now seeking to push off their costs to others... or be allowed to 'spend more' by taking advantage of a politically-motivated stunt like they're doing now?

[77T]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

Yes and no. I agree that it's for future consideration when applying penalties, but Red Bull has just today filed for a formal review from the FIA on what was ruled at the time of the incident by the race stewards. If the FIA deems the new evidence presented by Red Bull to be material, then their opinion on the matter will be taken into account.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...rIkpiyGA68t0bw

On another note, and this is just pure speculation on my part, but I'm starting to get the feeling Horner's comments in the press regarding the amount the money the damage repair costs is telling. Aside from the $1.8m damage Hamilton caused, Horner was extremely vocal after the Bacu race when Max was leading the race comfortably and suffered a tire blow out with just 6 laps remaining. He went on about Pirelli and how Max wasn't the only one to suffer a blow out on the fast straight and how Pirelli first indicated the tires were cut but then changed their story to teams set up as the problems etc.


My point with this is it seems that Horner seems preoccupied with costs as it relates to damage. I'm wondering if their margin of error as it relates to the budget is razor thin and don't know if RBR will be able to get to the end of the season within their allotted budget? They're still developing the 2021 car and any damage will come off the top to say nothing of the fact that engine allotments may come into play toward the end of the season. The engine that was in Max's car for Silverstone was only 3 races old and now it's a complete write off. Max will have to take grid spot penalties in November or December should they run out of engines.

Thanks for that link - hadn’t seen it was announced after my earlier post.

Your sense of the posturing is accurate - but also for the additional impact it might have in an official Appeal hearing.

This review step will reconvene the original Stewards panel (unless any of them are unavailable Thursday and a replacement will be appointed).

I can’t imagine what RBR’s new relevant and important evidence will be - or what they want (I can guess, though ).


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[sillo]

Originally Posted by 77T

I can’t imagine what RBR’s new relevant and important evidence will be - or what they want (I can guess, though ).

Supposedly more telemetry data on Lewis through Copse to compare his go at Max with his two subsequent (and more successful) passes through Copse later in the race.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by sillo

Supposedly more telemetry data on Lewis through Copse to compare his go at Max with his two subsequent (and more successful) passes through Copse later in the race.

They already know and have that data, and tire grip potential on the first lap is without a doubt different than later laps when the rubber is.... so different lines.

But hey, this has generated GREAT publicity for the sport... like with WWE or NASCAR. The more noise RBR makes, the more they are in the headlines. A win-win for everyone... as some of us sit here... amused.

[sillo]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

They already know and have that data, and tire grip potential on the first lap is without a doubt different than later laps when the rubber is.... so different lines.

But hey, this has generated GREAT publicity for the sport... like with WWE or NASCAR. The more noise RBR makes, the more they are in the headlines. A win-win for everyone... as some of us sit here... amused.

I don’t really know what they had, but they definitely didn’t have data Lewis’ other passes when they came down with the penalty since those didn’t happen until after the penalty was given.

[enjoythemusic]

Which are completely different situations with different grip potential (both mechanical and aero) and different braking ability due to brake temps. Also, car weight might play a role as more gas versus carrying less later in the race.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Interesting. Wonder how many more crashes RBR can handle before they have to stop participating in races during 2021??? Have other teams crashed more and still ok financially?

Maybe RBR is winning in the early races due to their (eventually realized) irresponsible spending and are now seeking to push off their costs to others... or be allowed to 'spend more' by taking advantage of a politically-motivated stunt like they're doing now?

I need to preface the old adage of 'believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see" so this is just my observation of what I see based over a number of years. However, everyone thought that Mercedes and Lewis would automatically win the championship this year and all teams would put their limited resources into the new formula starting in 2022. Makes sense right? And I'm sure Mercedes were thinking along the same lines and they want to make sure their 2022 car is just as dominant as their previous generation car had been so they stop developing the 2021 car.

But with Honda being in their final year as engine supplier, they threw everything into their engine development. Couple that with the change in aero rake for 2021 and perhaps RBR thought they could catch Mercedes flatfooted in 2021.

Based on points at the beginning of the year, Mercedes wasn't exactly pulling away from Red Bull. Mercedes F1 engineers are extremely bright and figured out the aero rake solution within a couple races unlike their sister chassis at Aston Martin. Red Bull was closer than they had ever been to Mercedes, Max was doing well and Perez was a better #2 than they had for the past few years. RBR starts putting more money into developing the chassis and pull ahead of Mercedes at one point in both championships.

Toto is on record saying they aren't developing their 2021 car and the next thing we know they have new bits at Silverstone which seemed to improve their car. So now we have an arms race to the end of the year.

Perhaps RBR has put a lot of money into closing the gap to Mercedes and each and every Dollar, Euro, Pound is going to the development and they can't afford a lot of damaged cars let alone unallotted engines which carry automatic grid penalties.

[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

Yes and no. I agree that it's for future consideration when applying penalties, but Red Bull has just today filed for a formal review from the FIA on what was ruled at the time of the incident by the race stewards. If the FIA deems the new evidence presented by Red Bull to be material, then their opinion on the matter will be taken into account.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...rIkpiyGA68t0bw

On another note, and this is just pure speculation on my part, but I'm starting to get the feeling Horner's comments in the press regarding the amount the money the damage repair costs is telling. Aside from the $1.8m damage Hamilton caused, Horner was extremely vocal after the Bacu race when Max was leading the race comfortably and suffered a tire blow out with just 6 laps remaining. He went on about Pirelli and how Max wasn't the only one to suffer a blow out on the fast straight and how Pirelli first indicated the tires were cut but then changed their story to teams set up as the problems etc.


My point with this is it seems that Horner seems preoccupied with costs as it relates to damage. I'm wondering if their margin of error as it relates to the budget is razor thin and don't know if RBR will be able to get to the end of the season within their allotted budget? They're still developing the 2021 car and any damage will come off the top to say nothing of the fact that engine allotments may come into play toward the end of the season. The engine that was in Max's car for Silverstone was only 3 races old and now it's a complete write off. Max will have to take grid spot penalties in November or December should they run out of engines.

This isn’t a fact. Lewis did not cause that damage, sneaking a data point like this in further changes the real narrative. There were two people in that corner and one is more to blame, if anything, seeing Max’s history in these scenarios and his reckless driving, I would say he caused it.
Lewis backed out of every previous corner as Max plowed through in typical no f#*s given attitude, when it came to this corner he chose to be his normal self, the guy we typically see, crashing into someone if they’re not intimidated by his driving and are going to pass.

Words matter and we have to remain objective. This is the type of stuff Horner is pushing in his whining parade, put enough information out there that people keep reading it and accept it as facts and the stewards somehow change their perspective. It’s not coincidence he’s been so vocal, it’s all a game. Redbull has a certain amount of time to file an appeal, Horner has been super vocal laying the narrative he wants people to believe then files his request for review.