Bought Rolex but received Empty Box--HELP

[tudorbaja27]

Originally Posted by 77T

Isn’t that a violation of 18 U.S. Code § 542 - Entry of goods by means of false statements?


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Probably. But if that gets you the watch, so he it.

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[locutus49]

Seller needs to refund the money. ASAP.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by 77T

Isn’t that a violation of 18 U.S. Code § 542 - Entry of goods by means of false statements?


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Along the lines of what I was thinking. Could something like this potentially get the buyer in trouble, too, if they're being watched after receiving the goods and not declaring?

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Along the lines of what I was thinking. Could something like this potentially get the buyer in trouble, too, if they're being watched after receiving the goods and not declaring?

Doesn't that apply to crossing international borders? Within the US shouldn't be an issue.

[cda555]

Originally Posted by juniorlawrence

If I was selling a watch/this expensive you better believe I would have some documented "proof"/video of the watch being packed in the box (with signed tape) and UPS or whoever is shipping it with signed Tape around the box so if it is indeed "tampered" "opened" with in transition then it would be obvious. Also I would get the insurance as a seller and bake this into the profit/loss of the transaction.

(Also lets be intellectually honest what percentage of packages sent through the mail are tampered with? .1%) So if you think the buyer is just trying to scam the seller (I think it is usually the other way around) then as the seller I would wait for a bit as I work on the insurance claim but keep the buyer in the loop.

This. I have a few high prices hobbies that require me to do shipments. I have also shipped a $3000 watch. The onus is on ME to make sure it is properly insured. I also makes sure there is a video made that shows the item goes in the box. The video never stops or leaves the frame of the item. It goes into the box, waits in line, to the counter, to the employee. Video can be altered and it isn’t a perfect means of proof, but it is nice to have if you need to prove to the hobby community that you shipped it. Plus, with the watch, it was insured by my USAA Rider policy in addition to the insurance I bought through UPS. I called and made sure USAA covered shipment after sale and the rep confirmed. My point, is that I know if it would have been stolen by UPS, I could comfortably refund the buyer knowing I would either be covered by USAA or UPS. Once again, the onus is on the seller to properly insure... even if the buyer is a scammer, that should be a scenario the seller should take into consideration when making a sale.

[cda555]

Originally Posted by cht

You guys realize though that USPS will NOT allow you to photograph NOR video record anything in a USPS building, so, you can't show photographic proof what you packaged up and handed to an employee.


I tried this very thing and they said no way, against the law on federal property.

I record ALL THE TIME at my post office. Nobody has ever told me I couldn’t. Maybe because I go quite frequently and am just an ultra polite person in general. This applies to the post office by my house and my job. I also recorded fine at the post office by my parents’ house.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by CorradoBrit

Doesn't that apply to crossing international borders? Within the US shouldn't be an issue.

He was talking about shipping all over the world, mostly to USA, from Canada.

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

He was talking about shipping all over the world, mostly to USA, from Canada.

Then yes, that is a problem. Evasion of customs duties for starters. I imagine there could be a risk of confiscation and some serious retribution including some big fines.

[watchtabs]

Whoa this is an interesting thread and very sorry for both buyer and seller in this situation.

Only buy from trusted sellers, or your AD.


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[kman82]

Originally Posted by AbsolutelyROLEX!

Hey guys, I have shipped around 700 rolexes all over the world, mostly to US.
Always use USPS, not a single loss
I ship them in used auto parts boxes, put the return address as my Auto Repair shop, on the customs form I always put" precision Auto Instrument" returned for warranty/repair.
Value at $100
Fully insure the package with Parcelpro.
Hopefully this helps a few of you out.
When you ship high value items, you have to be as deceitful as you can, with the entire process.
Use your imagination, it works, I speak from experience....

AND FOR THOSE OF YOU WONDERING, PARCELPRO FULLY SUPPORTS SHIPPING THIS WAY

[springer]

Originally Posted by TAKUYA

Same thing happened with my shipments last year with ups. So this is my story and experiences. Hope it helps...

My worker shipped 5 packages out that day to my clients. 2 (highest values of 5) dropped off at UPS Store who knows us well, another 2 dropped off at FedEx who knows us well too, and last one dropped off at random UPS store. Why? Because I don't usually ship all packages out at one location.

Next day, 2 packages shipped by FedEx which were delivered safe and sound. Also the last package dropped off at random ups store which was delivered safe and sound as well. So lil concerned here about another 2 packages got delay which were dropped off at ups we know well... around after noon, 1st client in East Coast of one of those 2 packages called me and said there is no watch, just the box and watch boxes inside while the package still looks good from outside.. and an hour later 2nd client in West Coast called me and said the same thing with the same happen.... and until now I still don't know when and where those items got stolen.. at ups store, ups hub or at ups destination...?

Here are how I worked on it. Those 2 clients are my new clients so of course they definitely thought I may be a scammer at that moment. But first I tried to calm them down and showed them that the packages have full insurance and showed them that I'm working with insurance company and UPS to see what happened with the packages first. And I also guaranteed them that they will receive their full refunds within a few days after I hear back from insurance company and ups even the insurance company will take over 30 days for investigation and refunds to the sender... then next thing I needed my clients take a lot of the pics of the packages after they received and opened it. And also if they can tell me or estimate how the weight of the package when driver handed the package to them and do not throw anything from what they received. because the insurance company needed those packages in that exact condition send back to them for investigation. my worker kept the dropoff receipts of those 2 packages and took the pics of them before he shipped. Because on drop off receipt it will show what the weights of each package. So the package will be lighter if the item inside got stolen. And The tracking numbers will show the actual weight of package when driver scans it and hands it to the receiver. Then from there ups and insurance can know what happened with it... Another good thing helped me to get the cover from insurance that I always use brown paper tapes all around for packages. So when they received those packages back from my clients they could see someone cut the brown paper tape and tampered with clear tape over it. And of course I could not let my 2 clients hang there and wait 30 days for insurance decision. So one client understood and waited for me to find him another item or waited until we know the decision from insurance company. And If its not right, then both of us will find lawyer and give this case to lawyer to sue UPS. Another client (who became my regular client now) could not wait for another item or decision from insurance company, so I totally understood that and had to give him full refunds back. So in this case, the seller needs to deal with shipping company and insurance company if the item got stolen within the shipment like my case. But of course it needs lil helps from buyer as working with seller and be patient...

Also another thing that do not let ups or FedEx worker pack up your valuable package or let them know what inside the package. Especially with UPS since UPS is franchise so they can not really know much about their workers like Fedex.

How about a conclusion to your post? What company insured the packages? Did the insurance carrier pay you for the losses? If reimbursed, how long before receiving payment.

Thanks in advance for a reply.

jP

[william21]

Originally Posted by Pavlos

Sorry OP you are going through this. I hope it is resolved. Why is William21 the seller not chiming in? That is very suspicious to me.

This is why Rolex tell customers on their web site, "the only place to buy a Rolex is an AD."

Situation still sucks though. Lets all pray for a happy ending.

I haven't chimed in frankly because I haven't had much time today to follow the back and forth of this thread. I listed the weight that was included on the shipping receipt which was weighed in front of me with all of the contents included. As I mentioned before, I am not going to engage in a continual back and forth-- I am going to let UPS carry out their investigation, which they will be inspecting the package tomorrow. I also contacted the Emeryville police officer assigned to this case to accompany UPS during their inspection as well. Unfortunately, that's all I can add at this point.

[springer]

Originally Posted by MinMay

In the end, the 9K question....

Who is responsible for the 9K? SELLER or BUYER?

If the BUYER did everything righteously and he doesn't get his money back, then that's messed up. I can't imagine any BUYER going to wire money for a watch if SELLER holds no responsibility. Isn't that why the price includes INSURANCE to cover the SELLER since BUYER can not make a claim? Can you imagine if SELLER starts to say "I sent you a box (with or without a watch) with tracking information..and it's not my problem anymore?"

One more time, insurance ends when the package is signed for. The buyer should have never allowed someone else to sign for the package. It is clear to me that the watch was stolen by a UPS employee or someone at the apartment complex. I would venture to say that a UPS employee is probably the culprit. Once the watch was lifted from the package, the thief let the package be delivered raising suspicions that the seller, buyer or receiver (one who signed for for the package) would become suspects in the theft and therefore draw attention away from a package that was never delivered - which would place full liability on UPS.

If I remember correctly after reading this extensive missive, the police verified the box had been re-taped. Whoever stole it has surely been involved in this practice before.

[springer]

Originally Posted by AbsolutelyROLEX!

Hey guys, I have shipped around 700 rolexes all over the world, mostly to US.
Always use USPS, not a single loss
I ship them in used auto parts boxes, put the return address as my Auto Repair shop, on the customs form I always put" precision Auto Instrument" returned for warranty/repair.
Value at $100
Fully insure the package with Parcelpro.
Hopefully this helps a few of you out.
When you ship high value items, you have to be as deceitful as you can, with the entire process.
Use your imagination, it works, I speak from experience....

AND FOR THOSE OF YOU WONDERING, PARCELPRO FULLY SUPPORTS SHIPPING THIS WAY

In the USA, the insured value and declared value have to be the same. I use Parcel Pro insurance and it has always been this way for me.

[crazymcmichael]

Originally Posted by helo008

Thanks KingSubTT and NKflyer for your help, and going out of your way to measure the weight of your own GMTs. It’s extremely helpful and I really appreciate it.

To clarify, the seller has sent me a copy of the original UPS receipt and the actual weight of the package is 1 lb 15.5 oz as recorded there. UPS rounded the weight to 2.00 lbs on the tracking but it appears the original weight is actually 1 lb 15.5 oz (1.969lbs).

I took the package to the UPS store near me today and weighed it, and it clocked in at 2.15lbs (2lbs 2.4oz), as seen in the image I linked earlier. I assume calibration explains the small discrepancy but if the watch were removed, the weight of the package should be lower than the original 1 lb 15.5 oz, not higher. At no point did the package weigh the suggested 2 lbs 8 oz.

Than now you only you have The truth

[Knappo 1307]

Originally Posted by AbsolutelyROLEX!

Hey guys, I have shipped around 700 rolexes all over the world, mostly to US.
Always use USPS, not a single loss
I ship them in used auto parts boxes, put the return address as my Auto Repair shop, on the customs form I always put" precision Auto Instrument" returned for warranty/repair.
Value at $100
Fully insure the package with Parcelpro.
Hopefully this helps a few of you out.
When you ship high value items, you have to be as deceitful as you can, with the entire process.
Use your imagination, it works, I speak from experience....

AND FOR THOSE OF YOU WONDERING, PARCELPRO FULLY SUPPORTS SHIPPING THIS WAY

Really bad advice, don't do this....

[Craigdwh]

Originally Posted by dmash

And now you have additional people in the mix. Your apartment staff. They could have stolen it, UPS employees could have stolen it, the list goes on.


I’ve sold thousands of items, and on a non PayPal transaction, there is absolutely no way I would refund your money out of pocket on this, just being honest. If I knew I put the watch in the box, i would not take a $9k loss based on a stranger’s word. If UPS paid out the claim, of course I would then refund, but not until that point. I am completely with the seller on this.

+1, glad someone finally had the balls to say it.

The level of entitlement displayed by many buyers is astronomical. They think they take on zero risk or responsibility when transacting this way.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Craigdwh

+1, glad someone finally had the balls to say it.

The level of entitlement displayed by many buyers is astronomical. They think they take on zero risk or responsibility when transacting this way.

Yup, I find it amusing how many people are blurting out what the seller should do, but I am 99% certain they wouldn’t replicate the same actions they’re suggesting. This sense of entitlement is catalyzed as of late with how eBay always puts the buyer first in their decisions, and they believe this is how every online transaction works. It’s not

It’s quite absurd really, this entire crowd saying ‘refund IMMEDIATELY’. Oh really, you send a watch (and know 100% with certainty it was there when you sent it) and within ONE DAY of the buyer claiming he didn’t receive the watch, no investigation done on UPS’s part, you’re just going to send the buyer his money back out of your pocket? Give me a break. Just a proper example of people putting on a front behind a computer screen and acting like keyboard warriors. Unless you’re pulling in some serious dough, a $9000 loss, out of the blue, is a HUGE deal. These people are flat out lying, acting as if they’d just send over a refund without a second thought.

UPS investigation needs to happen, THEN a proper solution put forth from there. If this was a storefront, it’s a different story. With two private individuals, it’s not the same. I fully agree the 2lb pckage deal looks really shady and this is a really crappy situation if both parties are being honetBut here’s the deal, if UPS refunds the money, all this speculation is for not.

[GoingPlaces]

Originally Posted by dmash

Yup, I find it amusing how many people are blurting out what the seller should do, but I am 99% certain they wouldn’t replicate the same actions they’re suggesting. This sense of entitlement is catalyzed as of late with how eBay always puts the buyer first in their decisions, and they believe this is how every online transaction works. It’s not

It’s quite absurd really, this entire crowd saying ‘refund IMMEDIATELY’. Oh really, you send a watch (and know 100% with certainty it was there when you sent it) and within ONE DAY of the buyer claiming he didn’t receive the watch, no investigation done on UPS’s part, you’re just going to send the buyer his money back out of your pocket? Give me a break. Just a proper example of people putting on a front behind a computer screen.

UPS investigation needs to happen, THEN a proper solution put forth from there. If this was a storefront, it’s a different story. With two private individuals, it’s not the same. I fully agree the 2lb pckage deal looks really shady. But here’s the deal, if UPS refunds the money, all this speculation is for not.

Exactly. How in the world is it the seller's responsibility when a proper investigation hasn't even really begun (or just has begun). The buyer takes on risk when transacting this way. There are no guarantees, that discount comes with risk and unless you are willing to undertake that risk, then buy from an AD BNIB. The only logical move here is to let the investigation take its course and see from there. Buyer needs to wait this out. Especially since there seems to be several moving parts here.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by GoingPlaces

Exactly. How in the world is it the seller's responsibility when a proper investigation hasn't even really begun (or just has begun). The buyer takes on risk when transacting this way. There are no guarantees, that discount comes with risk and unless you are willing to undertake that risk, then buy from an AD BNIB. The only logical move here is to let the investigation take its course and see from there. Buyer needs to wait this out. Especially since there seems to be several moving parts here.

And if these same people wanted to get technical, put this in front of a judge right now.

-Ok so you’re suing for your money.
-Yes
-Was there insurance?
-Yes
-What did they say?
-Well actually, the investigation, which is a joint operation between UPS and the local police department, hasn’t even begun.
-Then why are you here?



......it would immediately be dismissed pending outcome of the investigation.



Another thing I find so odd, is that the seller is also a TRF member (for 8 years I might add) and not some random guy. He’s being unfairly ganged up against, both parties should be getting equal treatement here, as we have no proof if somebody is lying/what actually happened.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Along the lines of what I was thinking. Could something like this potentially get the buyer in trouble, too, if they're being watched after receiving the goods and not declaring?

True Adam - we don’t have a TRF rule against it (yet).

IMHO, sellers should not engage in fraud against a buyer’s national import laws. I would shy away from a seller who repeatedly violates such laws.

Originally Posted by CorradoBrit

Then yes, that is a problem. Evasion of customs duties for starters. I imagine there could be a risk of confiscation and some serious retribution including some big fines.

Yep, confiscation is a risk too - what is insurer going to say when it comes to a claim?

Originally Posted by springer

In the USA, the insured value and declared value have to be the same. I use Parcel Pro insurance and it has always been this way for me.

Yep - and defrauding the buyer’s national duties/taxes is troublesome at the least, and punishable if caught.

Originally Posted by Knappo 1307

Really bad advice, don't do this....

I agree...many sellers on eBay and Amazon state in their listings that foreign shipments will not be declared at anything other than full value and the buyer must pay duties if applicable.

I could support such a policy here, too. Just a blanket rule that sellers will not falsify foreign shipment declarations. And a warning to buyers that soliciting such behavior is not allowed.


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[kingSubTT]

The reason many people are siding with buyer is buyer has a $9000 empty box, and an expensive lesson in online transactions and seller has no loss so far. Btw where we did this 9k figure come from. I thought the seller listed it for $7600 or something.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by kingSubTT

The reason many people are siding with buyer is buyer has a $9000 empty box, and an expensive lesson in online transactions and seller has no loss so far. Btw where we did this 9k figure come from. I thought the seller listed it for $7600 or something.

and those people are essentially only trying to shift the loss from the buyer to the seller, and he'd be out the watch and the money. Then will you have an outcry for him? Makes zero sense.


This is simply going to boil down to two different scenarios.

1. UPS pays out the claim and everybody is happy.
2. UPS denies the claim.....at that point, the seller will go 1/3 ways. Refund the buyer in whole and take the loss as himself, refuse to refund the buyer anything, or suggest they take the loss 50/50.

If things go the 2nd way, and buyer is unhappy with the decision, he could then seek legal action. However, can say that he will have practically no leg to stand on. Especially with people at his apartment receiving the package on his behalf, and them having possession prior to him taking the package in. He would have essentially the same chance in court, to take his apartment complex to court over this, as he only has his word to claim the seller didn't send the watch, or the apartment complex stole it from the box, etc.

[MinMay]

I guess the lesson we can learn from this...

Long term seller can send an empty box and hold no responsibility.

I hope buyers understand it clearly before making a purchase privately. If you want to take the risk, then don't complain about it. Seller should put a disclaimer in their ad. "Seller holds no responsibility. Buy at your own risk."

[helo008]

Originally Posted by springer

One more time, insurance ends when the package is signed for. The buyer should have never allowed someone else to sign for the package. It is clear to me that the watch was stolen by a UPS employee or someone at the apartment complex. I would venture to say that a UPS employee is probably the culprit. Once the watch was lifted from the package, the thief let the package be delivered raising suspicions that the seller, buyer or receiver (one who signed for for the package) would become suspects in the theft and therefore draw attention away from a package that was never delivered - which would place full liability on UPS.

If I remember correctly after reading this extensive missive, the police verified the box had been re-taped. Whoever stole it has surely been involved in this practice before.

Just wanted to chime in on this as a couple people have brought up my apartment staff. In my building, it's pretty much accepted that UPS themselves sometimes decides to deliver items straight to the office even if they are signature-required, and that's not something that we but rather UPS couriers decide at their own discretion. Sometimes, they'll come straight to the apartment, but often they'll just decide themselves to let someone sign for it and there's no option for me to decide otherwise. I did not at any point let UPS give someone else the watch--UPS made the decision to do so themselves.

However, with that said, I do not believe the apartment staff at my complex were complicit in any way. The reason is that the daily UPS/Fedex/USPS deliveries come all together every day, meaning that quite literally they can receive 20-30 boxes at the same time each delivery. Given that the delivery took place at 11:29am, they would have had to go through all these packages, label them by apartment number, and move them into the mail room and record their receipt. This all happens in an all-glass office where there are at least two employees working. It also doubles as our leasing office, which means tenants come in at any point to pick up packages or address any issues they might have.

I picked up the package roughly 45 minutes after it was delivered, and the two staff members on duty have been working here for the last 2 years at least and I am familiar with both of them. In this short time frame, they would have had to sort all the packages, label them, and record them; I honestly don't believe they would have had the time or idea to open one random package (that was not labeled "Rolex" or "high value" in any way) out of so many, take out only a watch, and reseal it without any obvious signs of tampering, all in full view of our building lobby and anyone on the street. I also do not have a history of ordering high value items, so I doubt my name on the package would have drawn attention to the package either.

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by MinMay

Long term seller

Hardly. The seller has only sold one watch on TRF... this one. He may have registered several years ago but he's hardly been a prolific member. Its not unknown for scammers to set up seed accounts and come back several years later, post a few times and then instigate the scam. There's at least one example here on TRF I can recall. Not saying William21 did this but length of membership is not a guarantee of an easy transaction.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by CorradoBrit

Hardly. The seller has only sold one watch on TRF... this one. He may have registered several years ago but he's hardly been a prolific member. Its not unknown for scammers to set up seed accounts and come back several years later, post a few times and then instigate the scam. There's at least one example here on TRF I can recall. Not saying William21 did this but length of membership is not a guarantee of an easy transaction.

ATTN: Never buy a watch from CorradoBrit, he fits the same description! 8 year member, not that many postings, WATCH YOURSELVES

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by dmash

and those people are essentially only trying to shift the loss from the buyer to the seller, and he'd be out the watch and the money. Then will you have an outcry for him? Makes zero sense.


This is simply going to boil down to two different scenarios.

1. UPS pays out the claim and everybody is happy.
2. UPS denies the claim.....at that point, the seller will go 1/3 ways. Refund the buyer in whole and take the loss as himself, refuse to refund the buyer anything, or suggest they take the loss 50/50.

If things go the 2nd way, and buyer is unhappy with the decision, he could then seek legal action. However, can say that he will have practically no leg to stand on. Especially with people at his apartment receiving the package on his behalf, and them having possession prior to him taking the package in. He would have essentially the same chance in court, to take his apartment complex to court over this, as he only has his word to claim the seller didn't send the watch, or the apartment complex stole it from the box, etc.

This is exactly how I see this going down unless there is physical evidence in form of unauthorized fingerprints inside the box, under tape that ties a UPS employee at the dropoff location, or CCTV at the apartment complex showing someone opening the box and removing watch or UPS person tampering with scale.

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by dmash

ATTN: Never buy a watch from CorradoBrit, he fits the same description! 8 year member, not that many postings, WATCH YOURSELVES

Guilty as charged

Inzite can vouch for me

[dmash]

Originally Posted by CorradoBrit

This is exactly how I see this going down unless there is physical evidence in form of unauthorized fingerprints inside the box, under tape that ties a UPS employee at the dropoff location, or CCTV at the apartment complex showing someone opening the box and removing watch or UPS person tampering with scale.

Yes, very legitimate points, my original statement obviously only holds if none of these (or something else definitive) exist.