The Official Formula One Thread!

[austinp]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

Never did I say Hamilton caused the accident I said it was a racing incident and the penalty given was harsh. "COULD" Lewis have given him more space and stayed on track? The answer is yes. Did Lewis want to give him more space when they were side by side into the 2nd part of the chicane? No. Just like Lewis didn't want to go for the apex when he was at Silverstone. Don't kid yourself, Lewis is a master at positioning his car that makes the other person look bad. Listen to any podcast from his own former teammates and team principals. And that is not a dig at him, it's a "tactical decision" to paraphrase Toto.

The more ironic part of this entire episode is the Hamilton apologists clutching their pearls at the aftermath of the wreckage at ~ 30 mph and he immediately puts it in reverse and tries to get back on track vs. their response after a 180 mph hip check sending someone into the wall and hospital and saying Max is wreckless. The bias is strong with the Hamilton ballwashers. And no, I never drove in F1 but neither have you and for every F1 driver who said one thing, you can find another that said it was a racing incident including Martin Brundle who went on and on about being a racing incident during the broadcast.

Finally, with regard to the penalty, I swear toto has pictures of the FIA officials with goats so something because the inherit favoritism toward Mercedes and Lewis Hamilton in general is evident nearly every time there's an incident.

Love this.


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[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

Never did I say Hamilton caused the accident I said it was a racing incident and the penalty given was harsh. "COULD" Lewis have given him more space and stayed on track? The answer is yes. Did Lewis want to give him more space when they were side by side into the 2nd part of the chicane? No. Just like Lewis didn't want to go for the apex when he was at Silverstone. Don't kid yourself, Lewis is a master at positioning his car that makes the other person look bad. Listen to any podcast from his own former teammates and team principals. And that is not a dig at him, it's a "tactical decision" to paraphrase Toto.

The more ironic part of this entire episode is the Hamilton apologists clutching their pearls at the aftermath of the wreckage at ~ 30 mph and he immediately puts it in reverse and tries to get back on track vs. their response after a 180 mph hip check sending someone into the wall and hospital and saying Max is wreckless. The bias is strong with the Hamilton ballwashers. And no, I never drove in F1 but neither have you and for every F1 driver who said one thing, you can find another that said it was a racing incident including Martin Brundle who went on and on about being a racing incident during the broadcast.

Finally, with regard to the penalty, I swear toto has pictures of the FIA officials with goats so something because the inherit favoritism toward Mercedes and Lewis Hamilton in general is evident nearly every time there's an incident.

Well the professionals who are certified and qualified to judge the incident don’t agree with your assessment. That’s all that matters. As for positioning a car to somehow create a situation where he causes a crash that makes the other person look bad is science fiction, he would have to be psychic or have the mutant power of seeing the future to know how to create and position his car to make the “other” driver look bad. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard in a while, maybe something a VER sympathizer would believe.

Now if you’re saying he’s good at position his car to defend or block other drivers from passing them, that’s a compliment. Couple races ago Alonso received universal praises for making it hard for HAM to pass possibly preventing him from a win. Car positioning is a skill any Formula 1 driver should be able to have.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

I swear toto has pictures of the FIA officials with goats so something because the inherit favoritism....

Maybe a video of their Weekend At Bernie's?

[SDGT3]

Read my post again and look at the photo below objectively and then make a conclusion. I said Lewis could have given him more space but elected not to. The photo shows that and it's his right to give him space or not, but the consequences are such. There was a gap and VER took it which resulted in the car popping up on the sausage curb. IF Lewis given him another 1/3 meter of space, they both go through. You don't give Lewis enough credit for positioning his car. Also what no one has brought up thus far is that Max was on hot tires and Lewis on cold tires coming out of the pits so his traction coming out of the chicane would not have been as optimal as Max's so he had to try and squeeze him to compromise VER exit. Both had something to gain and lose from the incident and it ended up the same for both.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

Read my post again and look at the photo below objectively and then make a conclusion. I said Lewis could have given him more space but elected not to. The photo shows that and it's his right to give him space or not, but the consequences are such. There was a gap and VER took it which resulted in the car popping up on the sausage curb. IF Lewis given him another 1/3 meter of space, they both go through. You don't give Lewis enough credit for positioning his car. Also what no one has brought up thus far is that Max was on hot tires and Lewis on cold tires coming out of the pits so his traction coming out of the chicane would not have been as optimal as Max's so he had to try and squeeze him to compromise VER exit. Both had something to gain and lose from the incident and it ended up the same for both.

Or Max could have lifted. You seem to be suggesting that when Max gets anywhere near any other driver they should move over to give him space, why should they? Your photo proves that, he was behind, there was no space to overtake, he should have lifted.

Basically, thats what the stewards said. You just seem to think differently. RBR are not appealing the decision, are you seeing something that they are not?

[enjoythemusic]

After the 2021 season, they should sell tickets / PPV for a boxing match between VER and HAM. I'd pay $19.95 to see it, or would it be included in my $$ F1 streaming video fees?

[BobMartian]

Verstappen isn't even on the road in that picture posted. 98% is over the line.

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by daveathall

Or Max could have lifted. You seem to be suggesting that when Max gets anywhere near any other driver they should move over to give him space, why should they? Your photo proves that, he was behind, there was no space to overtake, he should have lifted.

Basically, thats what the stewards said. You just seem to think differently. RBR are not appealing the decision, are you seeing something that they are not?

The overtake was never going to be in the chicane but on the run out of the chicane. Max has better grip levels with hot tires, HAM does not.

There is overlap with VER wheels behind HAM wheels but nevertheless side by side overlap. Never said drivers should move over but drivers need to either work together or not. HAM has the right to give or not give space. If he doesn't give space into T1 (first part of the chicane) then he forces Max to cut the corner and perfectly legal just as Max has done to HAM in this race. However, if HAM gives space in T1 then there is a reasonable expectation that space will be given in T2 (2nd part/apex of chicane). What HAM did was give 3/4 of the car's width, the gray area I'm referring to and part of the way drivers need to understand each other when racing wheel to wheel. Hopefully I've done a better job in explaining.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

The overtake was never going to be in the chicane but on the run out of the chicane. Max has better grip levels with hot tires, HAM does not.

There is overlap with VER wheels behind HAM wheels but nevertheless side by side overlap. Never said drivers should move over but drivers need to either work together or not. HAM has the right to give or not give space. If he doesn't give space into T1 (first part of the chicane) then he forces Max to cut the corner and perfectly legal just as Max has done to HAM in this race. However, if HAM gives space in T1 then there is a reasonable expectation that space will be given in T2 (2nd part/apex of chicane). What HAM did was give 3/4 of the car's width, the gray area I'm referring to and part of the way drivers need to understand each other when racing wheel to wheel. Hopefully I've done a better job in explaining.

If VER had lifted, it wouldn't have happened. You seem to think that drivers should just give him space because he wont lift, well, thats exactly what he thinks as well. He was not in front, he was not level, there wasn't room for him, he should have lifted. Is he the only one allowed to race? You seem to be advocating that as soon as he turns up on a corner the leading car should just wave him through.

You said it was up to Hamilton wether he gave him space, you are right, he chose not to so VER should have lifted and stopped the crash that he caused and the Stewards punished him for it and RBR who never contested the decision.

There is absolutely no reasonable expectation for VER giving room in T2 or any area for that matter, there is absolutely no Gentlemans agreement between those two after events in the previous 3 races. In fact, its fair to assume that the accident happened because of the events in the previous races. VER should have lifted, simple as that, he was in the wrong and could have killed someone.

[erhein]

Sorry if this has been asked before but, just out of curiosity, how many stewards are there who decide whether a driver is to be penalized? In this type of situation where the investigation is conducted after the race, after talking to the drivers and team representatives, do the stewards discuss it and then take a vote among themselves? If so, is it a secret vote? If they vote, does it have to be unanimous in order for a driver to be penalized? In other words, is a penalty such as this a consensus decision, or a majority decision?

[1st amg]

This is a debate that will never ever end. It’s simple people, those who cheer for Hamilton are on his side. Those who cheer for Max are with him. Then there is the other camp(myself) who just is passionate of the sport for the last 30 years and I can say it was a racing incident and two guys who are battling for everything. It makes this sooooo much more entertaining as it has been a boring sport the last few years with the same car/driver finishing.
I am over the moon happy for Ricciardo and his new team, and for him to speak in Italian to his Italian fans of which his roots are from made it that more special. The tifosi have another favorite driver now.


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[austinp]

Originally Posted by 1st amg

This is a debate that will never ever end. It’s simple people, those who cheer for Hamilton are on his side. Those who cheer for Max are with him. Then there is the other camp(myself) who just is passionate of the sport for the last 30 years and I can say it was a racing incident and two guys who are battling for everything. It makes this sooooo much more entertaining as it has been a boring sport the last few years with the same car/driver finishing.
I am over the moon happy for Ricciardo and his new team, and for him to speak in Italian to his Italian fans of which his roots are from made it that more special. The tifosi have another favorite driver now.


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Couldn’t agree more. This season has been awesome.


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[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by 1st amg

This is a debate that will never ever end. It’s simple people, those who cheer for Hamilton are on his side. Those who cheer for Max are with him. Then there is the other camp(myself) who just is passionate of the sport for the last 30 years and I can say it was a racing incident and two guys who are battling for everything. It makes this sooooo much more entertaining as it has been a boring sport the last few years with the same car/driver finishing.
I am over the moon happy for Ricciardo and his new team, and for him to speak in Italian to his Italian fans of which his roots are from made it that more special. The tifosi have another favorite driver now.


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Agree. Not a VER or HAM fan but rather a RIC and LEC fan and over the moon that he won given the poor start to the season with McLaren. I will probably be bitching that VER is winning all the time in the years to come and someone needs to challenge him like I'm doing with year with HAM. But with regard to VER, I see a throw back kind of driver, no BS, that doesn't care much for the PC image or social media likes, he just gets after it. Conversely, HAM hasn't really raced anyone wheel to wheel in many years and finally has someone with a car that is on par with his and the ability to boot. HAM would find the same "give no quarter" from a Senna or Schumacher if they were side by side. VER is kind of in that mold and a once in a generation talent.

[77T]

Originally Posted by erhein

Sorry if this has been asked before but, just out of curiosity, how many stewards are there who decide whether a driver is to be penalized? In this type of situation where the investigation is conducted after the race, after talking to the drivers and team representatives, do the stewards discuss it and then take a vote among themselves? If so, is it a secret vote? If they vote, does it have to be unanimous in order for a driver to be penalized? In other words, is a penalty such as this a consensus decision, or a majority decision?

There were 4 Stewards who made the decision.

Yes all Stewards discuss the evidence they take from F1, and the testimony of the drivers + team reps. They go through a decision on responsibility for the incident and use common racing sense. One of the Stewards is always a recent driver with the FIA, An international Steward as chairperson, another international steward, and a national or international steward from the ASN ranks of the host Country.

A consensus is made in an open deliberation (there are no secret votes) that includes a statement of position. It isn’t an election where majority rule breaks out. By the time all the evidence is in, the case is usually determined by the facts.

If there is culpability, then the range of penalties is discussed without regard to the consequences of the incident. For example, whether a car burned, or was destroyed vs. “spun and continued”. The difference between a 5-sec. penalty vs. a 10-sec. penalty might be adjudicated on the level of danger for making contact in a slow vs high speed segment of the track. The 3 grid spot penalty handed to VER was normal for this case. There was one earlier this year with another driver who got only a 1 spot penalty - each incident must be judged by the facts and not any prior behavior. The penalties can be more severe if a driver has shown recklessness. For example, deliberately endangering another driver.

You saw that point in the final sentence of the decision that I posted here for all to read. The consequences of this incident didn’t drive the decision.

Hope that helps…
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[77T]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

IF Lewis given him another 1/3 meter of space, they both go through. You don't give Lewis enough credit for positioning his car. Also what no one has brought up thus far is that Max was on hot tires and Lewis on cold tires coming out of the pits so his traction coming out of the chicane would not have been as optimal as Max's so he had to try and squeeze him to compromise VER exit. Both had something to gain and lose from the incident and it ended up the same for both.

I hear what you mean about the IF.

Heck, the idiom attributed to Don Meredith on MNF works well here (If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, wouldn't it be a Merry Christmas?)

I think we all know VER had the advantage coming from behind on hot tires. And yeah, HAM did a positioning job. (BTW, any competent 14y.o. In F3 knows that move at T2).

It’s because this is a chicane that isn’t just any chicane. It’s a 90°R to a 120°L - asymmetrical - which is why that sausage is there.



VER was predominantly responsible - had they both continued, he would have been given a 5sec. Time penalty - normal stuff.

I think this will work out fine for both guys. VER actually did well on balance. His 11 sec. stop was leveled off and he retained the points advantage that may have slipped from his grasp otherwise.

And the 3 grid spot penalty will become a non-penalty methinks. VER needs to take the 4th power unit. Since Sochi hasn’t been RBR’s cake, what better time than Sochi to do that?

Watch for Marko to spill the beans


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[Lol-x]

Between corner 1 and corner 2 there is a straight.
That straight is where max tried to overtake, but he was not fast enough to overtake and slammed into Hamilton. Because the straight is so short no one can overtake cleanly on that section which everyone knows.
The grid penalty may be a non-penalty if Max wins the next race....that is if he can beat Ricciardo this time

[1st amg]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

Agree. Not a VER or HAM fan but rather a RIC and LEC fan and over the moon that he won given the poor start to the season with McLaren. I will probably be bitching that VER is winning all the time in the years to come and someone needs to challenge him like I'm doing with year with HAM. But with regard to VER, I see a throw back kind of driver, no BS, that doesn't care much for the PC image or social media likes, he just gets after it. Conversely, HAM hasn't really raced anyone wheel to wheel in many years and finally has someone with a car that is on par with his and the ability to boot. HAM would find the same "give no quarter" from a Senna or Schumacher if they were side by side. VER is kind of in that mold and a once in a generation talent.

So so true with regards to Senna or Schumacher...just ask Prost, Mansell and Hakkinen. Those were battles for the ages, this is where this heading as like you said, Max is cut from the same paper.

[daveathall]

Verstappen drives to win, he will try to overtake on corners and will not yield, and therein lies the problem. A lot of drivers will give way because they know that he wont yield, "don't give me space and I will run us both off the track." Thats fine, good for him, if he can intimidate other drivers with his courage, thats good, if he has a fast enough car he will win every time (or crash).

The slight flaw is, if another driver wont yield either and that's what happened on Sunday. Verstappen went for an opening that wasn't there on the assumption that the gap would appear when Hamilton yielded, only he never, he carried on because he had the right to do so. Thats why Verstappen will kill or seriously injure someone, he plays chicken and when the other driver doesn't back down, he will kill him.

His sense of entitlement was obvious with his comment of "thats what happens when you dont give space" over the radio.

Just for the record. I am not a Hamilton fan either, I think he is a whinging whining person always blaming something else. Just this time, it wasn't his fault, it was Verstappen.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Lol-x

Between corner 1 and corner 2 there is a straight.
That straight is where max tried to overtake, but he was not fast enough to overtake and slammed into Hamilton. Because the straight is so short no one can overtake cleanly on that section which everyone knows.
The grid penalty may be a non-penalty if Max wins the next race....that is if he can beat Ricciardo this time

I agree with one asterisk…and sorry for the long explanation - not aimed at your comment because I agree with it. Yes, many will disagree but this is how Stewards have judged almost identical incidents in chicanes and/or bus-stops all over the world.

As for Monza T1-2 chicane…
Nobody can make a clean side-by-side transit through that chicane due to the sausage kerb at T2 - one or the other car would need to compromise their line. In the track diagrams, the appearance of a straight segment is a bit of an illusion.

The asterisk…
An optimal line for a solo transit is an “S” shape - no straight segment. That’s where no 2 cars can make the “S” together unless one backs off. Below is the centerline of an F1 car and you can see the tires must be on the alternating kerbs.



Once HAM left room at T1, he was screwed if he didn’t close the door in T2. As others said, HAM masterfully positioned his car. VER was the one making contact. The Stewards knew all of this. VER could not ask the question of how he expected the dive-in at T2 could ever have succeeded in a clean pass. HAM’s car can’t magically disappear.

The Stewards were unconvinced with VER’s thoughts…and agreed with what the CCTV showed…”this manoeuvre was attempted too late for the driver of Car 33 to have ‘the right to racing room’. While Car 44 could have steered further from the kerb to avoid the incident, the Stewards determined that his position was reasonable…”

You can’t make a late dive-in to establish racing room - no matter how far up you get. Static photo’s ignore the dynamics of safe passing and the projected outcomes of rash moves against a leading car.

Some have wondered about an alternative scenario - could HAM have closed the door coming into T1?

HAM couldn’t crossover to the far left of the track in front of VER before T1 because such moves in the braking zone against a fast approaching car are regularly penalized. Sure, he’d block VER but he’d have suffered a race ending rear collision anyway.

This should make Sochi interesting as I believe VER will be chasing through the pack to get ahead of HAM. Either from 3 spots away or from the back (which I call the BOT Italian GP podium strategy).


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[Sleepy996]

This can be argued until the end of time but at the end of the day these two battling it out every race is finally bringing much needed life and energy to the sport. The midfield is highly competitive and the races are watchable without a mid race nap needed. Amen.

[Speedbird-1]

IMHO...the track is partially to blame for this incident.
This bottleneck is far too narrow for 21st Century F1.
Like most chicanes it's the proverbial accident waiting to happen, exacerbated in this case, by being so close to the end of the start/finish straight, and the pit lane exit.
'what can possibly go wrong'?


But, "the accelerator works both ways"...as they say.

[erhein]

Originally Posted by 77T

There were 4 Stewards who made the decision.

Yes all Stewards discuss the evidence they take from F1, and the testimony of the drivers + team reps. They go through a decision on responsibility for the incident and use common racing sense. One of the Stewards is always a recent driver with the FIA, An international Steward as chairperson, another international steward, and a national or international steward from the ASN ranks of the host Country.

A consensus is made in an open deliberation (there are no secret votes) that includes a statement of position. It isn’t an election where majority rule breaks out. By the time all the evidence is in, the case is usually determined by the facts.

If there is culpability, then the range of penalties is discussed without regard to the consequences of the incident. For example, whether a car burned, or was destroyed vs. “spun and continued”. The difference between a 5-sec. penalty vs. a 10-sec. penalty might be adjudicated on the level of danger for making contact in a slow vs high speed segment of the track. The 3 grid spot penalty handed to VER was normal for this case. There was one earlier this year with another driver who got only a 1 spot penalty - each incident must be judged by the facts and not any prior behavior. The penalties can be more severe if a driver has shown recklessness. For example, deliberately endangering another driver.

You saw that point in the final sentence of the decision that I posted here for all to read. The consequences of this incident didn’t drive the decision.

Hope that helps…
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Thank you for that explanation. It helps a lot. That being the case, hypothetically, you could have had two stewards take the position that it was a racing incident and no further investigation was necessary and two stewards take the position that Max should be charged with attempted murder. Equally hypothetically, you could have had the reverse analysis of the incident between Max and Lewis at Silverstone. I assume we'll never know who said what among the four stewards, but both conclusions and penalties strike me as being compromises especially given the disparity of opinions among observers, some of whom are quite knowledgeable.

The rest of the season will be interesting.

[77T]

Originally Posted by erhein

The rest of the season will be interesting.

100% agree with this. And I hope it remains interesting versus devolving into preposterous

On your hypotheticals…
When an incident needs to be judged during a race to provide the fairest decision, it might be possible for some opinions to be diverse.

But the rules, the facts and the situational variables very often result in unanimous judgements of fact, and if needed, then the penalties to to be levied. This is due to continual training, Race Director event notes to teams at every GP and shared, standardized penalty values within the FIA/F1 community.


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[denmanproject]

Got a chuckle put of this pic

As much as I do not like Lewis I still would have checked on him if I drove over him lol, glad everyone is ok could have been much worse without the halo!

[dauster]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Maybe a video of their Weekend At Bernie's?

I think Max already knew the ugly ass outfit HAM was going to wear during the MET and wanted to spare us...

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by dauster

I think Max already knew the ugly ass outfit HAM was going to wear during the MET and wanted to spare us...

IKR?

You'd think HAM would be smart enough to avoid Super Spreader events like that

[Petroc Tremaine]

To go with that earlier pic of Max V.

[enjoythemusic]

Wonder if Bottas ever gets the feeling he's not part of a team... like other teams.

Zak-Brown-drinks-from-Daniel-Ricciardos-shoe-on-the-Monza-podium.jpg

[Jackie Daytona]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Wonder if Bottas ever gets the feeling he's not part of a team... like other teams.

Attachment 1244325

[jatco]

Originally Posted by Dontknow

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-h0rwBX...jpg&name=small