Frankenstein Red Sub 1680 on Antiques Roadshow

[MrGoat]

Am I nuts for thinking it appraised much higher than it should have?


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[4rnold]

I don't know, for me the price is not correct since the watch is not correct.

In Europe, decent ones with papers and box go for around 40K, without papers 30K (price in dollar). So its appraised much less.

But still I would never pay that money for a Frankenwatch, but hey, maybe someone would for the dial etc... if genuine

[KY..]

15k for what looks like a wanna be 2 tone Red Sub?
Hmmm, maybe if all you need to do is replace the hands, outer bezel (not insert), & crown.

[MrGoat]

Appraiser said MK 4 dial, MK 3 insert were genuine to the 1974 case. Bezel, crown and hands are franken. I still don’t get the valuation but maybe the hands, crown and bezel are easier to source. Dial looked alright from my novice eye.


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[Juhuatai]

If the dial matches the case, I don't think the valuation is that far off.

[Dan S]

IMO, it's not a very interesting watch to appraise on a TV show. Even in original condition, there are millions of them.

[Swearengen]

Millions of Red 1680s, how so?

Originally Posted by Dan S

IMO, it's not a very interesting watch to appraise on a TV show. Even in original condition, there are millions of them.

[one80]

Originally Posted by Swearengen

Millions of Red 1680s, how so?

Doesn’t seem out of the realms of possibility - ~8 yrs between 67 and 65.

Is there a list of the production numbers for each model?

[TuRo]

Back in the 80s at auction you often saw 5513 and 1680 of all conditions with ‘upgraded’ bi-colour work…they were only £400-500 per watch (£1.5-2k in todays money) and a very small fledgling collector community though, so wasn’t frowned upon that much.
Mind you, back then my watchmaker jeweller pal was de-militarising Milsubs by drilling out lugs too - eeeeek !

[Swearengen]

I believe the red 1680 sub s/n range is from approx 2.0m to 4.0m and they weren't a very popular model. I can't believe they would have been anywhere near 50% of the total production, which would be required for them to represent 1m watches. My guess is they would be less than 5% of total production, and probably less, so the total red sub production is most likely much less than 100k. One can only guess the number of surviving watches

Originally Posted by one80

Doesn’t seem out of the realms of possibility - ~8 yrs between 67 and 65.

Is there a list of the production numbers for each model?

[ExplorerI]

How much is a red sub dial? Can’t imagine that watch is worth much more than its dial and movement

[Dan S]

Yes, people are taking comments very literally. :-)

My point was that a 1680 with a red line on the dial, while a great watch, is (in my view) just one particular example of a standard high-volume mass-produced vintage Rolex. Not antique, not rare by the standards of the show, readily available on the market. It's always fun to see a watch on AR, but I'm usually disappointed, as in this case. Occasionally they will show something special, like a 19th century PP repeater, or a watch with unusual provenance, but usually it's just something you can view any day on IG or various dealer websites.

Presumably, AR has a lot of options regarding the appraisals that they televise, and I don't know why they would choose a 1680, especially a bad one.

[KoolMoeDee]

I realize this thread is long outdated but I just happen upon it today. I want to answer a few comments and clarify a few points as I am the owner of the 1680 red who was on AR.

1. Watch should not have been on AR. I agree 100% that this watch should not have been on AR.

a. Background: When I originally nominated my 1680 Red Submariner, it was during the COVID-19 shutdown. I nominated both the watch and a Naval Academy ring from 1907. I expected the ring to be selected due to its historical significance—it belonged to the grandson of Williams Wickham (1820-1888). However, I suspect AR preferred to avoid potentially sensitive topics like generational wealth and privilege, given the social climate during the George Floyd protests in 2020.

b. Bottom Line: Six months after nominating both items, I was surprised the watch was chosen instead of the ring. If it had been a Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, or F.P. Journe, it might have been more suitable for the show.

c. Chance of Being Aired: The filming included six sets with 30-minute sessions each, translating to around 96 taped sessions. AR typically showcases about 10 items per episode, so I estimated a 30% chance of airing. Since my story about the watch was straightforward, it lacked the kind of compelling narrative AR usually prefers. However, near the end of season 26, they aired my watch in a “Junk in the Trunk” special, likely due to needing extra content.

d. Motivation for the show. As a fan of AR for many years, I wanted to experience the show and I wanted a realistic appraisal from someone who was knowledgeable in the vintage game. I had my 1680 appraised on 3 different occasions (for insurance purposes) and I because they were not vintage folks, they gave me a significantly lower value than what I was finding on the net. Additionally, none of the 3 appraisers confirmed it was a Frank or if the parts were real. I was 99% confident I had a frank but not 100% and so if I get an appraisal done by AR, it would save me $100.

2. Source of the watch. I stated on the show I got the watch from someone who was in the military, and he attended estate sales and relic hunted (Civil War items) throughout the entire state. I referred to him as “junk man” because he was always hustling antique items. I bought plenty of things from him throughout the years (parrot shell, “artillery” sword, Revolutionary War flag, loads of silver dollars, artillery officers belt buckle, etc.) though I have sold most of it back to him for the same price or less except for the silver dollars.

3. Price of Watch at time of Purchase. I had purchased many relics and antiques from Junk Man (JM) and told him to be on the lookout for a Rolex. He called one day and as he had a Sub that came from an estate sale. JM stated I could buy the Sub for $2500 but I had to take the Datejust (DJ - 16013 with Buckley dial with gold hands on a tired two-tone jubilee bracelet) and a Cellini (gold 31mm with integrated gold bracelet nonadjustable- PoS watch). This was 07-08 and sending photos was not possible so I told him I would take the lot sight unseen. We talked through the prices (Sub - $2,500, Datejust (DJ) – Two Tone $2K, and Cellini $500) and that is how we came to $5K. JM did allow me to spread out the payments at $1,000 a month and I would get the watches upon final payment. I was guessing I could wear the Sub, I could give the DJ to my wife and the Cellini to my mother in-law. I was still very new to the watch game and I had very limited experience with Rolex and even less on vintage Rolex (at that point I had an Omega SMP, Luminox (always had issues) Breitling Aerospace – (not a watch I would recommend)) and a Tudor Snowflake (7021/0) (good condition, head only, bought in 1998 for $500 on eBay from Canada, never liked it and almost gave it away).

4. Originality of Watch. The Sub did come from the same estate sale as the DJ so Paul Winicki (appraiser – part owner of Radcliffe Jewelers in MD) was confident that changes were done at the AD (as stated in the video) at the time of purchase as it was very common place to mod watches at customers request. He did open the watch up, look at it with the loop and looked at the DJ and Cellini also. I met with Paul and chatted him and Kevin (close talker from NYC with mustache who also does watches and jewelry) for about 15 mins before taping. They both reviewed all the facts and were confident about the conclusion.

5. Value of Watch. The taping of the AR in Williamsburg was Oct 2021. The value has since come down (Oct 24). The discussion that was not aired but was taped (taped for about 10 mins the aired ~ 3 mins); if I were to bring it back to “original” condition (get correct bezel (keep current bezel insert – get a new pearl), hands and crown + rebuild and source a correct bracelet) it would take about $4K and the value would be in the $20K-$24K range at retail (use Chrono24 valuations, WatchRecon is about 15% less). Paul did suggest I sell the gold incorrect parts to finance the proper build. Today’s value (Oct 24) for a similar 1680 red (head only frank), using Chrono24 (US only) and WatchRecon, I am estimating $10K-$12K. Though I have had several offers (before and after the show), I am not planning to sell it unless someone has a crazy offer (for example: the value of a steel Daytona). It is not worth less than $10K because Paul would pay that much for sure.

a. Chrono24 valuations today (Oct 24) 1680 Red complete; $22K low end to $26K for a mid-range.

b. WatchRecon 1680 Red valuations today (Oct 24); $20K-$25K.

6. Superfluous information.

a. My dial is the MK 4 dial, with a two-tone jubilee and it came with a box.

b. Paul had a great looking 6263 (Daytona – white dial).

c. Everyone (appraisers, film crews, and guests) were super nice.

d. AR full time staff is minimal; I estimated 12-15 people. At time of filming, they were approximately 100 people on set, but they were all sub-contractors (part time – only show up for taping).

e. Appraisers get no monetary compensation. There is no compensation other than being on TV. All the appraisers shared great comradery and I would guess they all go get a beer after the show.

7. Epilogue

a. Current Status of 1680 Sub. It sits in a safe and it is rarely worn. It still has the tired leather strap from the show. The main “stem” has broken, and the watch cannot be set so if I plan to wear the watch (maybe twice a year), I have to shake the watch at the correct time (it keeps correct time for 3 days unworn). As the saying goes, “even a broken watch is correct twice a day.”

b. Plans. I do plan on bringing the watch back to original (minus the bracelet as I do not like metal bracelets) and I have currently have a correct bezel. The hands are tricky because you cannot see how the color of the hands will match the dial. I was hoping to get to NYC one day and go see John Buckley (very entertaining personality and an OG in the vintage market) on an appointment to see what he recommends for hands. A correct crown is relatively easy to source.

c. Cellini Watch. My mother in-law did not want watch, so it sat for years. A few months after AR, Paul did purchase the watch from me for $2K.

d. DJ – Wife did not want it (hard to read with roman numerals) then it went to Mother in-law and it was the same outcome. I ended up selling the tired bracelet, so the head sat in the safe until about 4 years ago and now I wear it as a daily on NATO (color depends on activity of the day). I estimate the value to be close to $4K and that is the self-imposed value limit I have for my daily watch as I tend to be hard on my watches.

The 1680 purchase was a total happenstance purchase that started me on the vintage journey and will agree with everyone that it should not have been on AR.

Photos:
1680 Red at the AR
Vintage Rolex starter kit = Buckley DJ + Cellini (purchased all watches (DJ+Cellini+1680) for $5K in 2008).
6263 Paul was wearing

[TuRo]

Nice closure statement, thanks. $2500 is a gilt-edged 'result' !

[rootbeer7]

Fantastic. What an update.

[MrGoat]

Originally Posted by KoolMoeDee

I realize this thread is long outdated but I just happen upon it today. I want to answer a few comments and clarify a few points as I am the owner of the 1680 red who was on AR.

1.Watch should not have been on AR. I agree 100% that this watch should not have been on AR.

a.Background: When I originally nominated my 1680 Red Submariner, it was during the COVID-19 shutdown. I nominated both the watch and a Naval Academy ring from 1907. I expected the ring to be selected due to its historical significance—it belonged to the grandson of Williams Wickham (1820-1888). However, I suspect AR preferred to avoid potentially sensitive topics like generational wealth and privilege, given the social climate during the George Floyd protests in 2020.

b.Bottom Line: Six months after nominating both items, I was surprised the watch was chosen instead of the ring. If it had been a Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, or F.P. Journe, it might have been more suitable for the show.

c.Chance of Being Aired: The filming included six sets with 30-minute sessions each, translating to around 96 taped sessions. AR typically showcases about 10 items per episode, so I estimated a 30% chance of airing. Since my story about the watch was straightforward, it lacked the kind of compelling narrative AR usually prefers. However, near the end of season 26, they aired my watch in a “Junk in the Trunk” special, likely due to needing extra content.

d.Motivation for the show. As a fan of AR for many years, I wanted to experience the show and I wanted a realistic appraisal from someone who was knowledgeable in the vintage game. I had my 1680 appraised on 3 different occasions (for insurance purposes) and I because they were not vintage folks, they gave me a significantly lower value than what I was finding on the net. Additionally, none of the 3 appraisers confirmed it was a Frank or if the parts were real. I was 99% confident I had a frank but not 100% and so if I get an appraisal done by AR, it would save me $100.

2.Source of the watch. I stated on the show I got the watch from someone who was in the military, and he attended estate sales and relic hunted (Civil War items) throughout the entire state. I referred to him as “junk man” because he was always hustling antique items. I bought plenty of things from him throughout the years (parrot shell, “artillery” sword, Revolutionary War flag, loads of silver dollars, artillery officers belt buckle, etc.) though I have sold most of it back to him for the same price or less except for the silver dollars.

3.Price of Watch at time of Purchase. I had purchased many relics and antiques from Junk Man (JM) and told him to be on the lookout for a Rolex. He called one day and as he had a Sub that came from an estate sale. JM stated I could buy the Sub for $2500 but I had to take the Datejust (DJ - 16013 with Buckley dial with gold hands on a tired two-tone jubilee bracelet) and a Cellini (gold 31mm with integrated gold bracelet nonadjustable- PoS watch). This was 07-08 and sending photos was not possible so I told him I would take the lot sight unseen. We talked through the prices (Sub - $2,500, Datejust (DJ) – Two Tone $2K, and Cellini $500) and that is how we came to $5K. JM did allow me to spread out the payments at $1,000 a month and I would get the watches upon final payment. I was guessing I could wear the Sub, I could give the DJ to my wife and the Cellini to my mother in-law. I was still very new to the watch game and I had very limited experience with Rolex and even less on vintage Rolex (at that point I had an Omega SMP, Luminox (always had issues) Breitling Aerospace – (not a watch I would recommend)) and a Tudor Snowflake (7021/0) (good condition, head only, bought in 1998 for $500 on eBay from Canada, never liked it and almost gave it away).

4.Originality of Watch. The Sub did come from the same estate sale as the DJ so Paul Winicki (appraiser – part owner of Radcliffe Jewelers in MD) was confident that changes were done at the AD (as stated in the video) at the time of purchase as it was very common place to mod watches at customers request. He did open the watch up, look at it with the loop and looked at the DJ and Cellini also. I met with Paul and chatted him and Kevin (close talker from NYC with mustache who also does watches and jewelry) for about 15 mins before taping. They both reviewed all the facts and were confident about the conclusion.

5.Value of Watch. The taping of the AR in Williamsburg was Oct 2021. The value has since come down (Oct 24). The discussion that was not aired but was taped (taped for about 10 mins the aired ~ 3 mins); if I were to bring it back to “original” condition (get correct bezel (keep current bezel insert – get a new pearl), hands and crown + rebuild and source a correct bracelet) it would take about $4K and the value would be in the $20K-$24K range at retail (use Chrono24 valuations, WatchRecon is about 15% less). Paul did suggest I sell the gold incorrect parts to finance the proper build. Today’s value (Oct 24) for a similar 1680 red (head only frank), using Chrono24 (US only) and WatchRecon, I am estimating $10K-$12K. Though I have had several offers (before and after the show), I am not planning to sell it unless someone has a crazy offer (for example: the value of a steel Daytona). It is not worth less than $10K because Paul would pay that much for sure.

a.Chrono24 valuations today (Oct 24) 1680 Red complete; $22K low end to $26K for a mid-range.

b.WatchRecon 1680 Red valuations today (Oct 24); $20K-$25K.

6.Superfluous information.

a.My dial is the MK 4 dial, with a two-tone jubilee and it came with a box.

b.Paul had a great looking 6263 (Daytona – white dial).

c.Everyone (appraisers, film crews, and guests) were super nice.

d.AR full time staff is minimal; I estimated 12-15 people. At time of filming, they were approximately 100 people on set, but they were all sub-contractors (part time – only show up for taping).

e.Appraisers get no monetary compensation. There is no compensation other than being on TV. All the appraisers shared great comradery and I would guess they all go get a beer after the show.

7.Epilogue

a.Current Status of 1680 Sub. It sits in a safe and it is rarely worn. It still has the tired leather strap from the show. The main “stem” has broken, and the watch cannot be set so if I plan to wear the watch (maybe twice a year), I have to shake the watch at the correct time (it keeps correct time for 3 days unworn). As the saying goes, “even a broken watch is correct twice a day.”

b.Plans. I do plan on bringing the watch back to original (minus the bracelet as I do not like metal bracelets) and I have currently have a correct bezel. The hands are tricky because you cannot see how the color of the hands will match the dial. I was hoping to get to NYC one day and go see John Buckley (very entertaining personality and an OG in the vintage market) on an appointment to see what he recommends for hands. A correct crown is relatively easy to source.

c.Cellini Watch. My mother in-law did not want watch, so it sat for years. A few months after AR, Paul did purchase the watch from me for $2K.

d.DJ – Wife did not want it (hard to read with roman numerals) then it went to Mother in-law and it was the same outcome. I ended up selling the tired bracelet, so the head sat in the safe until about 4 years ago and now I wear it as a daily on NATO (color depends on activity of the day). I estimate the value to be close to $4K and that is the self-imposed value limit I have for my daily watch as I tend to be hard on my watches.

The 1680 purchase was a total happenstance purchase that started me on the vintage journey and will agree with everyone that it should not have been on AR.

Photos:
1680 Red at the AR
Vintage Rolex starter kit = Buckley DJ + Cellini (purchased all watches (DJ+Cellini+1680) for $5K in 2008).
6263 Paul was wearing

Great synopsis!!

I’ve always wanted to bring something to AR but don’t want to be on tv. It is one of my favorite shows.

As for your 1680, yeah it’s a franken but it’s pretty cool looking. If I bought it for $2500 and it was just sitting in a safe I think I’d get it serviced independently and wear it as a daily as is.


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[Dan S]

Thanks for posting that interesting follow-up @KoolMoeDee, that was fun to read! Incidentally, I wouldn't let the hands stop you if you want to convert the watch back being all one color. Hands can be found, or easily re-lumed to match the dial.

[KY..]

Fun story, thanks for sharing.
I too have items I’d enjoy antique roadshow looking at.
I would definitely get the sub properly working if nothing else and wear it.
Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder.

[N0trub]

Cool watch i would get it serviced and wear it…a new service bracelet would make it pop.

[996marty]

What a great follow up. Interesting to see your thoughts on AR we did some filming for the show earlier this year and are waiting to see if we make the cut

[Dom9]

Fascinating tale and watch!

[The Tempest]

Amazing the value of that sub.