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Dr.Smellody · 12 October 2014, 11:23 PM

Hi all. My excellent jeweler, who finds most of my treasures, called me yesterday. He has a 1.5m silver gilt Bart 5513. The watch dates to 66 complete with the vi 66 mark in the caseback.

The good: original hands and dial. Bart.
The bad: highly polished case. The dial has a little damage around the the edges in three spots where the case screws at some point were not tightened correctly.

I'd like to make a fair offer, and have some idea of value. I can live with the case and dial damage, but what is it worth?

also, I realize the 93150 and triple lock crown are not correct. No issues with service as I trust my entire collection to his service. He does excellent work.

Dr.Smellody · 13 October 2014, 01:49 AM

Another picture.

enhamhale · 13 October 2014, 03:35 AM

I don't mean to be a professional but I thought ( bart Simpson ) where gilt dials only I may be wrong I'm sure someone on this forum will explain in more detail good luck

Karbo · 13 October 2014, 03:39 AM

Yes its not gilt on that one !! Strange

Dr.Smellody · 13 October 2014, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karbo

Yes its not gilt on that one !! Strange

Thanks so much for the feedback. Also trying to figure it out.

The last ones were not silver gilt? The dual is definitely lacquered and is crazed/crackled.

If not silver, it is definitely not like the white printing on my matte mf.

Karbo · 13 October 2014, 03:51 AM

You can find bart simpson 5512 with silver writing but I dont this there is some 5513 Bart in white or silver... Any expert can confirm ?

soundserious · 13 October 2014, 06:16 AM

Obviously relumed dial and the damage at the edge is consistent with tampering.

Silver gilt Bart 5513? Find a better jeweler.

Dr.Smellody · 13 October 2014, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soundserious

Obviously relumed dial and the damage at the edge is consistent with tampering.

Silver gilt Bart 5513? Find a better jeweler.

The jewelry store and jeweler are TOP notch. I am the one that called the watch silver gilt.

I also greatly appreciate my jeweler's willingness to contact when less than mainstream watches come in. I would recommend him to anyone.

If it can't be Bart because it is not gold gilt, the coronet is unquestionably frog footed, squashed, and not the normal shape.

I looked at the dial with a loop and the dial is gloss. I have two other watches with similar lume plots which are definitely NOT relumed.

Any other input from the experts?

Karbo · 13 October 2014, 06:34 AM

Maybe a Bart Service dial

jedly1 · 13 October 2014, 07:14 AM

the dial looks fine ...the white rather than gilt look of it in the head on shot , i would be very surprised if it wasn't just a combination of the camera saturation/white light settings and the strong direct natural light source.

the light is strong enough that it is agitating the phosphorus content of the luminous mix giving it the look of that green tone and making there gilt appear almost as white , the lume on this period can quite often be this ''exciteable'

as for value ...edge chips , shitty hands , polished case, later bracelet crown tube and glass........the edge chips are the biggest factor which will knock it a lot as at the end of the day they cant be put right .

$7-8k .

Dr.Smellody · 13 October 2014, 08:44 AM

Thank you. Very helpful information.

Dr.Smellody · 14 October 2014, 06:08 AM

Just thought I'd give this thread a bump. Jedly's comments were extremely helpful. Anyone else have any input on this one?

Thanks all. The info is extremely helpful.

CrownMe · 14 October 2014, 08:21 AM

I think Jedly covered it all pretty well.

The_Walrus · 14 October 2014, 11:14 AM

Are you sure you are ok with the missing trit on the minute hand?
It would be a deal breaker for me
There is a fair amount of material missing.

Dr.Smellody · 14 October 2014, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Walrus

Are you sure you are ok with the missing trit on the minute hand?
It would be a deal breaker for me
There is a fair amount of material missing.

Wouldn't the original hands in their original state be preferable to replacements?

It is not like this would be my only watch, so I could live with it. If I owned this watch, as it relates to the hands, should I:

leave as is
stabilize
stabilize and back - fill material of similar color
find era replacements with material intact

?

NukeMan · 15 October 2014, 04:38 AM

I would find era replacements. In regards to Jedlys comment on the light potentially making the gilt appear white; when you've seen the dial in person, does it look white or gilt? What if you look at it in daylight?

Dr.Smellody · 15 October 2014, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NukeMan

I would find era replacements. In regards to Jedlys comment on the light potentially making the gilt appear white; when you've seen the dial in person, does it look white or gilt? What if you look at it in daylight?

It really looked silver. Not gold. Maybe I need to go the eye doctor.

Karbo · 15 October 2014, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Smellody

It really looked silver. Not gold. Maybe I need to go the eye doctor.

NukeMan · 16 October 2014, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Smellody

It really looked silver. Not gold. Maybe I need to go the eye doctor.

Hmm, odd.

havent heard of gilt text on a sub/GMT turning all silver/white.

jedly1 · 16 October 2014, 05:50 AM

lets for the avoidance of doubt be clear ...

a gilt dial is a dial that has been reverse printed and what you are seeing in the text is the polished brass /alloy of the dial showing through ...gilt is NOT ( and i know its therefore a bad name choice ) ...gold print on top of the dial.

the colour you see if it is NOT a print on top of the dial in gold paint.

it can go from a watery silvery beige all the way down to a burnt orange when seen in person and the ageing of the lacquer coat will impact how it appears..

it can look even weirder on photos depending on the light settings / light source you use

The_Walrus · 17 October 2014, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Smellody

Wouldn't the original hands in their original state be preferable to replacements?

It is not like this would be my only watch, so I could live with it. If I owned this watch, as it relates to the hands, should I:

leave as is
stabilize
stabilize and back - fill material of similar color
find era replacements with material intact

?

I would definately replace the hands and keep the old ones for the next buyer to do as he chooses. As is I would price it below $7 but that is just my opinion.

Dr.Smellody · 17 October 2014, 06:10 AM

Thanks all. The "next buyer" if I get it will be decades out as I will keep.

Also, thanks for the gilt lesson Jedly.

Waiting to hear if I will get it. I'll let everyone know and get a new crystal on it so we can see the lettering better.

12 October 2014, 11:23 PM	#1
Dr.Smellody "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Salem, OR Posts: 5,391	Bart Feedback and Value Requested Hi all. My excellent jeweler, who finds most of my treasures, called me yesterday. He has a 1.5m silver gilt Bart 5513. The watch dates to 66 complete with the vi 66 mark in the caseback. The good: original hands and dial. Bart. The bad: highly polished case. The dial has a little damage around the the edges in three spots where the case screws at some point were not tightened correctly. I'd like to make a fair offer, and have some idea of value. I can live with the case and dial damage, but what is it worth? also, I realize the 93150 and triple lock crown are not correct. No issues with service as I trust my entire collection to his service. He does excellent work.

13 October 2014, 03:39 AM	#4
Karbo "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Paris, France Watch: Dayto/5164 Posts: 1,631	Yes its not gilt on that one !! Strange __________________ IG : @aka_karbo

13 October 2014, 03:51 AM	#6
Karbo "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Paris, France Watch: Dayto/5164 Posts: 1,631	You can find bart simpson 5512 with silver writing but I dont this there is some 5513 Bart in white or silver... Any expert can confirm ? __________________ IG : @aka_karbo

13 October 2014, 06:34 AM	#9
Karbo "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Paris, France Watch: Dayto/5164 Posts: 1,631	Maybe a Bart Service dial __________________ IG : @aka_karbo

13 October 2014, 01:49 AM	#2
Dr.Smellody "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Salem, OR Posts: 5,391	Another picture.

13 October 2014, 03:35 AM	#3
enhamhale "TRF" Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Real Name: Alex Location: England (andover) Watch: Submariners all Posts: 470	I don't mean to be a professional but I thought ( bart Simpson ) where gilt dials only I may be wrong I'm sure someone on this forum will explain in more detail good luck

13 October 2014, 06:16 AM	#7
soundserious "TRF" Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: usofmfa Posts: 3,157	Obviously relumed dial and the damage at the edge is consistent with tampering. Silver gilt Bart 5513? Find a better jeweler.

13 October 2014, 07:14 AM	#10
jedly1 "TRF" Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: mel(oz)/Yorks(uk) Posts: 1,928	the dial looks fine ...the white rather than gilt look of it in the head on shot , i would be very surprised if it wasn't just a combination of the camera saturation/white light settings and the strong direct natural light source. the light is strong enough that it is agitating the phosphorus content of the luminous mix giving it the look of that green tone and making there gilt appear almost as white , the lume on this period can quite often be this ''exciteable' as for value ...edge chips , shitty hands , polished case, later bracelet crown tube and glass........the edge chips are the biggest factor which will knock it a lot as at the end of the day they cant be put right . $7-8k .

13 October 2014, 08:44 AM	#11
Dr.Smellody "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Salem, OR Posts: 5,391	Thank you. Very helpful information.

14 October 2014, 06:08 AM	#12
Dr.Smellody "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Salem, OR Posts: 5,391	Just thought I'd give this thread a bump. Jedly's comments were extremely helpful. Anyone else have any input on this one? Thanks all. The info is extremely helpful.

14 October 2014, 08:21 AM	#13
CrownMe "TRF" Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Real Name: Kevin Location: Maryland Watch: My Open 6 Posts: 3,433	I think Jedly covered it all pretty well.

14 October 2014, 11:14 AM	#14
The_Walrus "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Real Name: George Location: Sydney Watch: 5513 Posts: 1,104	Are you sure you are ok with the missing trit on the minute hand? It would be a deal breaker for me There is a fair amount of material missing.

15 October 2014, 04:38 AM	#16
NukeMan "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Real Name: Jonas Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 988	I would find era replacements. In regards to Jedlys comment on the light potentially making the gilt appear white; when you've seen the dial in person, does it look white or gilt? What if you look at it in daylight?

16 October 2014, 05:50 AM	#20
jedly1 "TRF" Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: mel(oz)/Yorks(uk) Posts: 1,928	lets for the avoidance of doubt be clear ... a gilt dial is a dial that has been reverse printed and what you are seeing in the text is the polished brass /alloy of the dial showing through ...gilt is NOT ( and i know its therefore a bad name choice ) ...gold print on top of the dial. the colour you see if it is NOT a print on top of the dial in gold paint. it can go from a watery silvery beige all the way down to a burnt orange when seen in person and the ageing of the lacquer coat will impact how it appears.. it can look even weirder on photos depending on the light settings / light source you use

17 October 2014, 06:10 AM	#22
Dr.Smellody "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Salem, OR Posts: 5,391	Thanks all. The "next buyer" if I get it will be decades out as I will keep. Also, thanks for the gilt lesson Jedly. Waiting to hear if I will get it. I'll let everyone know and get a new crystal on it so we can see the lettering better.

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