Crown dimensions for Viceroy/Imperial

[JulesG]

Hi everyone!

Recently purchased a 3116 Rolex Imperial from 1938 but the screw down crown is not correct. Anyone knows the right dimensions and possible style? How interchangeable are they? I suspect its an ”oyster patent” one but have no idea. Its the 14k gold model. Strap suggestions are also welcome! Did they have the crown logo on the buckle back then? Thanks /J

[JulesG]

This is the watch. Its small and I guess crown should be as well.

[R.W.T.]

You're gonna have issues. What crown is on it now?

The threads on modern tubes are completely different than the originals.

If someone has tapped this case for a modern crown tube...you're kind of screwed...unless you send it to someone and have them fill it, tap it, and put a correct tube in. There ARE other possibilities...many crowns were used on these models...some had a smaller tube to begin with and the modern tube may be in between and it could be tapped for a larger crown and tube, what is sometimes referred to as "small barrel."

[JulesG]

Damn had a feeling this watch was going to become a lifelong restoration project.

It has a 6 mm gold crown (probably twinlock, with one bar under the logo). And the barrel do seem quite thick. Gosh.
So I guess my only luck is maybe getting an old crown AND tube and take to the watchmaker? I do really feel stupid now haha. It wouldnt be a huge problem for me if it wasnt for the big difference in crown size compared to the original.

[R.W.T.]

Wow a 600?

Eesh...yeah...I'd try for a small barrel. let me look at the inner tube size and compare a 600 tube and a small barrel tube and see.

[JulesG]

Tube is about 4mm. Is this work for ”the regular watchmaker”?

[R.W.T.]

It's gonna be hunt and peck. If a guy has experience with old cases and tubes it's kind of doable...The problem is finding the crown and tube. I just took an old style 600 tube and compared it to a regular bubbleback crown and tube...it's close inner threads. Likely this one was a little loose and the put it in with lok tite...and went on down the road.

What is the case reference on this particular one?

[JulesG]

Oh, lok tite is nothing I want around mechanics usually! Its a 3116 from 1938. Ive seen many online with new crowns. Ive searched reference pictures but its hard finding out whats original. I sense they used many different ones in those days.

Otto Frei has tubes, no?

I found some crowns on ebay but cant post links yet. An Oyster Patent 5.4mm.

Should be in the ballpark?

Thanks so much for your help!

[R.W.T.]

Ballpark it's not....it's a bit more precise than that and you're not going to be able to just take any old crown and have it work. I mean it might...but it might not.

Loktite? I won't put a case tube in without it. They'll always leak if you don't. Solves the issue.

No not bubble back tubes. I've never seen any at Otto Frei. That would be novel.

I bought several custom made in HK out of nickel like the originals from a guy who had them made.

The one that would really be appropriate for your watch is a "monk's hat" oyster patent crown. The problem is the numbering system is completely different. No one uses the right numbers for the crowns because they don't know what they are. The right crown for your watch was originally an 8 3/4. The tube is same 8 3/4.

It's gonna be hunt and peck...you don't know what's been done till you get the old tube out. You also don't know what tap the stem is..if it will fit the other crown...there's at least 3 tap sizes of stems for 10.5 h. It's complicated. You might have to get a stem that fits the crown and cut it to fit the case.

We don't even know that the 600 crown is actually working properly. :-) I mean it screws down...but is it really screwing down like it is supposed to...or did someone just put that crown on there and it screws on to whatever threads are there. Without having it in hand I can't tell. You might get a new crown and it might for some reason screw right on to that tube because it wasn't changed. Is there a gasket in that tube? Is there a place for one. Original tubes don't have gaskets in that era.

This is the style of crown I'm talking about. They also came in other sizes..that look exactly the same. I have no idea what size this one is.

This one might clean up...it's got some rust. In order to make them work properly you have to dig the old lead gasket out and replace it with a flat rubber gasket. Most people don't even realize there is a lead gasket in there.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ROLEX-YELLO...YAAOSwjyZdeuI1

[R.W.T.]

I wish you were in the States I'd try and "right" this for you.

[JulesG]

Thanks so much for your help! Yeah it surely seems I need someone that is both passionate and skilled for this type of work. I honestly had no idea of the grandness of the operation.

I guess I have to start gathering the parts and find a guy on swedish soil. Because its true, this crown winds a bit weird in the sense I feel its ’fiddling with the movement’ a bit while being unscrewed. That backwards click. Its a totally different feeling from my wifes 3121 which doesnt screw as much but correctly.

So. A crown like the one you showed and a fitting barrel are the parts needed at this point?

[R.W.T.]

Yes...so far...but you might end up needing a stem because the tap size may be different from the 600 crown and the length may need to be altered as well. It's not a tough stem to find...generics are available from suppliers, you just have to determine which tap size you need...but a watchmaker can figure that out easily.

[JulesG]

What movement number is right for the stem? 8 1/2? Feel a bit sad about this but also quite excited that one day it may be back to its original state.

Do you know what buckles these 30s straps had? The small normal old one or the wide one with the logo spread out on the buckle?

[R.W.T.]

The movement is a 10 1/5 h. There are 3 stem taps. 8 9 and 10 You just have to see what the tap is that you have...and whether it fits the new crown.

The buckles in the 30's were unsigned as far as I can tell.

I don't have never seen a gold example but the stainless ones are just a round bar between to legs.

[R.W.T.]

I would be more worried about the dial than anything else. I'd be on the lookout for non refinished dial.

[JulesG]

Thanks so much!

Yeah the dial is something I just missed. But I love the california dial style. Since the watch is not for resell Im on the lookout for someone that can just get the text more aligned and clean out the borders of the numbers since Im quite sure its an original from the start. What do you think? Fake?I dont understand the dials sometimes. Almost there but not quite.

I personally have no big problem with refinised dials if they keep true to the original and look good. Guess its a fine line between telling time and just looking at a brown mess sometimes.

But as I said, this will probably be working on this piece for the forseeable future. I cant stress enough how grateful I am for your help in this journey. My goal is to have at least two great watches for my kids to inherit. This one be the first. Guess Ill be the one left with a seiko diver and the reciepts.

[R.W.T.]

I agree. If we have an original great. If not...a quality refin is alright. It used to be less of a taboo. Here's my first Rolex. I've never SEEN an original dial in this configuration. They do have the masques to do it so it must have existed. I had this done by a different entity than the refin that came in it...they had the design in their references so it must have existed. Probably one of the finest refinished dials I've ever seen...luckily this was one of the good ones they did...

Refining the "project" is part of the charm of the hobby.

I would look at all of the photos of that reference watch that I could find online and in books till you find the "real" version of that dial and then have someone re-do it for you as well as can be done today.

Dial refinishers run hot and cold...one week they do brilliant work..the next week it's kids with crayons...I don't know what to say...any watchmaker will tell you the same thing I think.

Try and get the crown sorted. The rest can be done at any juncture.

Keep us posted as to how you progress. If I can be of any further help let me know.

[JulesG]

Beautiful! Yeah I hear you. If you have any advice where to find barrels Im all ears. Will try to get a good watchmaker for this project. Ill keep you posted and wish you all well in these strange times!

[JulesG]

Meant tube ofc. Still new to all the words!