How do independents keep on going?

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by GB-man

I took it a step further and outsourced this strap!

I can't comment since I don't follow this outsourcing rolexforums member.

Oh wait, yes, I can! Nice watch and cool strap choice!

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by GB-man

I took it a step further and outsourced this strap!

Now you are giving me idea. Never thought the LM101 would work with a NATO strap.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by llngoc

Now you are giving me idea. Never thought the LM101 would work with a NATO strap.

It’s delugs elastic loop and I love them. Cheap and so so comfortable. You have to do some math on the sizing as they aren’t adjustable but for the price you can afford to be wrong.

[dchang81]

Originally Posted by GB-man

It’s delugs elastic loop and I love them. Cheap and so so comfortable. You have to do some math on the sizing as they aren’t adjustable but for the price you can afford to be wrong.

Was it easy to pop out the QR for a curved bar?

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by dchang81

Was it easy to pop out the QR for a curved bar?

None of my MB&Fs come with quick release. In fact, it was the feedback I gave when I dinged my LM2's lug during a strap change.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by dchang81

Was it easy to pop out the QR for a curved bar?

Yes I took the quick release out very easily and just stuck the oem curved on in there. No issues as the elastic is very flexible and I can pull it back to easily access the spring bar for removal. I was however paranoid as heck removing the oem strap as it was a firm gator I believe. Hard to access that springbar.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by kunlun

Interesting comment! So, you are rejecting Philippe Dufour who outsources things such as dial manufacturing!

I think you might be very surprised at how haute horology was done for the vast majority of its history, but of course, follow your own inspirations.

PD is a one-man show and he outsources the manufacture of several watch components. You can classify his as outsourcing company.. it is what it is. But if I'm ever lucky enough to get an allocation of his Simplicity, I will because I'm a big fan of his finishing and I value proprietary handcraft, and his is among the very best.

I'm always learning from your posts regarding haute horology. You are the reason why I'm in TRF.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by dchang81

Everyone's darling rexhep rexhepi used to use base movements, and outsourced a decent number of parts like bridges. Not sure anyone would reject him as a brand. I mean the list goes on and on, voutilainen, gronefeld etc. Heck with nice movements from vaucher, Schwarz Etienne there's been an explosion of "indie" assembleurs. Basically have to go to the big boys if you want a true manufacture outside a very few select indies. If someone does something better than you, don't necessarily need to reinvent the wheel

Interesting you discuss Voutilainen because I thought he is the complete opposite of MB&F. He does more than 95% in-house and even design/manufacture dials, case and movement for other young watchmakers including MB&F via Comblémine and Cattin.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by vliberman

didn't Simon Brette come from MB&F? Are u saying nobody of his caliber is left there? Or that kind of work is not done at the brand? thx in advance for any info....

I have PM you regarding SB vs MB.

[vliberman]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I have PM you regarding SB vs MB.

Thank u sir! Appreciate it very much…

[dchang81]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Interesting you discuss Voutilainen because I thought he is the complete opposite of MB&F. He does more than 95% in-house and even design/manufacture dials, case and movement for other young watchmakers including MB&F via Comblémine and Cattin.

Could be mistaken but from what I recall, Kari took over both comblemine and cattin. He originally outsourced cases and a lot of parts, vaguely remember him saying he didn't make cases because he has someone else that makes them better for him. Now it's a different story, yes he does the vast majority with those two companies under the fold.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by dchang81

Could be mistaken but from what I recall, Kari took over both comblemine and cattin. He originally outsourced cases and a lot of parts, vaguely remember him saying he didn't make cases because he has someone else that makes them better for him. Now it's a different story, yes he does the vast majority with those two companies under the fold.

You are correct!

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by dchang81

Everyone's darling rexhep rexhepi used to use base movements, and outsourced a decent number of parts like bridges. Not sure anyone would reject him as a brand.

I am curious: Which ebauches did he use and for which models?

[dchang81]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

I am curious: Which ebauches did he use and for which models?

Not sure but there were some articles talking about the history of his brand. Here's one of them mentioning use of ebauches.
https://deployant.com/in-conversatio...pi-of-akrivia/

[GB-man]

I feel that merely owning the subsidiaries who make the parts seem to make it kosher for many collectors but what’s the difference really?

Unless the watchmaker is creating everything in their shop like say Daniel’s or smith or frodsham?

If you want a product that’s not super traditional in execution (design and finishing) there is going to be many many skilled artisans involved to make it happen.

It’s an argument of delegating vs outsourcing and the only difference is the name on the watchmakers pay check.

I’m most concerned with the vision of the designer and the execution by the artisans.

With that said I do enjoy when the entire collection by a brand is the vision of one person such as the case with Journe.

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by dchang81

Not sure but there were some articles talking about the history of his brand. Here's one of them mentioning use of ebauches.
https://deployant.com/in-conversatio...pi-of-akrivia/

Thanks for that.
Imo the wording is a bit choppy, how I see it, the „ebauche“ part refers to projects that he did for other companies.

[dchang81]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

Thanks for that.
Imo the wording is a bit choppy, how I see it, the „ebauche“ part refers to projects that he did for other companies.

He used to work for BNB, from what i understand he used BNB movements for his first watches, so they weren't technically in house. Same thing for his dials. Anyways my point was not to disparage akrivia more that in house seems to be the buzzword that tends to be meaningless. I mean I have an IWC spitfire with an in house movement from what i understand is just an ETA design flipped upside down. My bigger concern would be outsourcing exotic stuff that once the 3rd party is gone would be near impossible to get parts for. Sorry for getting this a bit off topic

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by dchang81

My bigger concern would be outsourcing exotic stuff that once the 3rd party is gone would be near impossible to get parts for.

Great point. i know MB&F is going to offer their parts specs after a period of time. This way if for some weird reason a part needs to be created, a quality matchmaker can craft it.

[Uppersouth]

Originally Posted by EdwardC

As a collector of some of the independents recently, mostly mini to micro brands so don't count PP-AP-Rolex, I am curious how their business models work. Some have strong investors behind them, some may not. In a recent interview Max from MB&F said their business just breaking even - while they are making pieces usually $100k or higher.

Outside of speculators, is there enough of true collectors paying the independents so they can keep pushing the boundaries that non-independents don't?

For those independents providing innovation, value, and actual exclusivity, they’ll make it. As for lots of names we’re quite familiar, they won’t. Everyone can be lauded a genius at the top of the curve but only a few will be able to make the necessary adjustments in a normal market.

[break]

Originally Posted by GB-man

I feel that merely owning the subsidiaries who make the parts seem to make it kosher for many collectors but what’s the difference really?

Unless the watchmaker is creating everything in their shop like say Daniel’s or smith or frodsham?

If you want a product that’s not super traditional in execution (design and finishing) there is going to be many many skilled artisans involved to make it happen.

It’s an argument of delegating vs outsourcing and the only difference is the name on the watchmakers pay check.

I’m most concerned with the vision of the designer and the execution by the artisans.

With that said I do enjoy when the entire collection by a brand is the vision of one person such as the case with Journe.

Agreed. This conversation fuels my theory that the independent watch market might be overvaluing “in-house” vs outsourced parts.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Can't comment on MB&F as I don't follow this outsourcing company.

Worth watching.

https://youtu.be/700nTdwv-k0?si=p20soPuN1lYFiuM8

[codecow]

What I find interesting is where you have a “brand” that is a man. What is the succession plan when that guy retires, and will the brand outlive the creator?

It seems like it would be a big deal for any company that wants to survive to diversify past the initial offerings and showcase designs from other folks.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Worth watching.

https://youtu.be/700nTdwv-k0?si=p20soPuN1lYFiuM8

I think MB&F has been bringing in a lot of the design work in-house. And Stephen McDonnel is their in-house movement designer/watchermaker in my eye. And so far all of his creations are very innovative and ground breaking.

One oddity lately I observed is that the movement finish is still along the same style and design as LM1, LM2 and LM101 for the LMs but Kari is no longer associated with the movements. Does anyone know why?

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by codecow

What I find interesting is where you have a “brand” that is a man. What is the succession plan when that guy retires, and will the brand outlive the creator?

It seems like it would be a big deal for any company that wants to survive to diversify past the initial offerings and showcase designs from other folks.

I guess one of the things for all the current brands with founding watchmakers' namesake as the brand will happen.

Some will survive and flourish with founding family member at its helm (AP) or acquired by another family and prosper (Patek) or death by a 1000 cuts being acquired by a group like Swatch/Richemont (just kidding here).

And of course, it can just go away which has always been a huge concern with independents for collectors. But lately people are starting to appreciate more of the value (maybe not anymore with the latest pricing), craftmanship and creativity of independents which outweigh the concern for the solvency of the brand in the long term. Especially if someone has a large collection, it is always good to have a diverse spectrum. It would be boring if every watch in my watch box is a G-Shock.

[dchang81]

Originally Posted by llngoc

I think MB&F has been bringing in a lot of the design work in-house. And Stephen McDonnel is their in-house movement designer/watchermaker in my eye. And so far all of his creations are very innovative and ground breaking.

One oddity lately I observed is that the movement finish is still along the same style and design as LM1, LM2 and LM101 for the LMs but Kari is no longer associated with the movements. Does anyone know why?

Only certain LM models are Kari. When I spoke with the distributor a few years ago he mentioned they don't necessarily want the same guy for all their watches, i.e. don't these all to be Kari watches with a different aesthetic, rather they are MBF.