Antagonist view :: Patek is in worse position compared to AP

[Partekular]

Originally Posted by pam66

i couldn't agree more. except of a few rare handcraft models below 300K euros there is nothing special in the PP collection under 5370P level. there are some nice models but nothing that other brands like VC, ALS and AP cannot do.
and worse, the design flaws have accumulated in the recent years, where TS has produced some really questionable models.

Well, it is a matter of taste. I prefer the 5811 to any comparable engineered looking RO.especially its weight although that piece is recognisable as a PP so I wear it with caution.

I think the 5320G in cream is one of the best PC PP’s by miles. Deceptively simple, not show boating flexer and can be worn anywhere without drawing attention.

Agreed the secondary market gives it a kicking but hey, it’s a watch not a financial investment. I don’t sell my watches so why would I care?

Out of interest which over £300k watches do you own?

[dauster]

Originally Posted by messikens

Ok so hear my theory out why PP is in a worse market position vs AP at the moment (and notwithstanding the legacy chops of being THE brand):

1. While PP/TS pretended that it didn't want to become the nautilus company, effectively it had been that way for 6+ years at this point, where most purchases were propping up the desire to get one or more Naut/Aqua allocations eventually while taking a hit

2. Most true halo pieces (chime, handpaint, grand comp) are so expensive and so far out from a customer perspective that their relevance is diminished

3. The large in between in the catalogue is both WAY more expensive for MSRP and WAY discounted vs AP in the secondary market

4. Therefore TS really only had the option of creating a fake proxy halo watch (that is $10k more expensive than the Naut - mainly to get people getting used to the inflated MSRPs for all their other watches) while further reducing supply of the true Halo Naut watch... Both in order to ensure people buy their "take a terrible hit immediately" in-between catalogue pieces

While AP I would venture has by and large more "desirable" regular models and more palatable prices and the MSRP hit is not as pronounced as PP for most of them


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I do agree with point 2. That's my problem with all three holy trinity brands. They all have a few great watches I can actualy get and afford and then it stops. So there is nothing to aspire to. Frankly I struggle to justify my 5205 purchase which was aorund $60k. That's a lot of money but for all three brands that's basically entry to very low mid tier and the really cool pieces are in the hundreds of thousands or even millions.

I don't think patek is in a worse position than AP at all - I think both brands are doing great and yes IG posting culture made the sports watches super desirable and yes despite TS claims THEY clearly are focused on the nautilus to a certain degree. I don't even know why this is so bad to admit. It's a legandary watch why not be proud of it instead of saying the opposite but releasing green dial, tiffany and then cubitus and of course 5811?

[Fla Gert]

Originally Posted by Partekular

Well, it is a matter of taste. I prefer the 5811 to any comparable engineered looking RO.especially its weight although that piece is recognisable as a PP so I wear it with caution.

I think the 5320G in cream is one of the best PC PP’s by miles. Deceptively simple, not show boating flexer and can be worn anywhere without drawing attention.

Agreed the secondary market gives it a kicking but hey, it’s a watch not a financial investment. I don’t sell my watches so why would I care?

Out of interest which over £300k watches do you own?

5320 best know to be the first grand complication to have a stamped case. Not a good record to break. And this is exactly the issue; The new Patek under TS thinks industrial and cuts costs. At the same time, they do multiple price increases/year. Its not just about making the best product anymore. The movement is also outdated and finishing is not up to par for the 6 figure retail price. And thats why the market thinks its at best worth 60c on the dollar.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Fla Gert

5320 best know to be the first grand complication to have a stamped case. Not a good record to break. And this is exactly the issue; The new Patek under TS thinks industrial and cuts costs. At the same time, they do multiple price increases/year. Its not just about making the best product anymore. The movement is also outdated and finishing is not up to par for the 6 figure retail price. And thats why the market thinks its at best worth 60c on the dollar.

I take some of your points but I think we cannot bring "movements" into the argument as AP has objectively far worse and less innovative movements in their currently line up...

[Gandor]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

I take some of your points but I think we cannot bring "movements" into the argument as AP has objectively far worse and less innovative movements in their currently line up...

AP movements are more robust and modern across the entire lineup than Patek. The entire Patek lineup doesn’t have simple quality of life things like hacking, decent power reserve, rotors that don’t sound like a p51 mustang etc.. And at the really high end the code universelle I find more impressive than anything in the Patek catalog. You could argue the average finishing is better on Patek movements but even then sub 100k Patek skimps out on finishing.

[Rollieo]

Originally Posted by Gandor

AP movements are more robust and modern across the entire lineup than Patek.

You’re the first person that has ever said this. Robustness is hard to qualify, but anecdotally I’ve talked to numerous collectors with experience with both AP and Patek, and it’s not even a comparison when it comes to reliability (with Patek winning hands down).

Also a ton of AP movements are not even from AP. I’ve really never heard anyone compare movements between the two brands.

This is just a weird comment. I’d be curious where the perspective comes from

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Gandor

AP movements are more robust and modern across the entire lineup than Patek. The entire Patek lineup doesn’t have simple quality of life things like hacking, decent power reserve, rotors that don’t sound like a p51 mustang etc.. And at the really high end the code universelle I find more impressive than anything in the Patek catalog. You could argue the average finishing is better on Patek movements but even then sub 100k Patek skimps out on finishing.

That's misinformation. The new generation Patek movements have hacking seconds.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Gandor

AP movements are more robust and modern across the entire lineup than Patek. The entire Patek lineup doesn’t have simple quality of life things like hacking, decent power reserve, rotors that don’t sound like a p51 mustang etc.. And at the really high end the code universelle I find more impressive than anything in the Patek catalog. You could argue the average finishing is better on Patek movements but even then sub 100k Patek skimps out on finishing.

Im sorry thats just simply not true. Patek has a superior chronograph movement, both automatic AND a manual wound one, AP has just 1 which is very thick and comes with a multitude of problems (just search this forum!). The new 330 derivative does have hacking seconds and is MUCH thinner, more elegant and just more reliable and more accurate, with a Patek seal guaranteeing it. Patek has annual calendars, 3 different perpetuals, all beautiful, whereas AP has that fragile and VERY dated QP movement that is frankly just old and tired. Please do your homework please.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Rollieo

You’re the first person that has ever said this. Robustness is hard to qualify, but anecdotally I’ve talked to numerous collectors with experience with both AP and Patek, and it’s not even a comparison when it comes to reliability (with Patek winning hands down).

Also a ton of AP movements are not even from AP. I’ve really never heard anyone compare movements between the two brands.

This is just a weird comment. I’d be curious where the perspective comes from

100%, maybe he is a fan boy and just over-reacted, who knows. I will give him the benefit of the doubt that hes probably new to the hobby.