32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by fsprow

Good points - however my experience, at least with the Witschi, is that the numbers stabilize well within a five minute period. Perhaps not for the Chinese machine. And the watch had been worn until an hour or so before winding and measuring (in my recollection!)

Frank

I have measured many 4 Hz watch calibers (as yours is also 4 Hz) and found that the required movement stabilisation time after a full winding is closer to 15 minutes than 5 minutes.

This has nothing to do with the timegrapher, because the stabilisation time is intrinsic to the caliber. A timegrapher is just the instrument that measures it. As you know, the rates are directly measured and the amplitudes are calculated via the lift angle.

Suggestion: Maybe you can easily (?) measure the stabilisation time for your Patek movement using your Witschi. You do a full winding, install the watch directly onto your prepared Witschi and immediately start your measurements in TRACE mode, log data every 2 s, and measure for let's say 30 minutes. Post the data, if you can extrat them from the timegrapher, or post a Witschi screenshot.

PS: I am not sure that your Witschi Watch Expert IV can do what I propose above because I remember that this Witschi model does not have the TRACE mode functionality. Is that correct or not?

[fsprow]

Originally Posted by saxo3

I have measured many 4 Hz watch calibers (as yours is also 4 Hz) and found that the required movement stabilisation time after a full winding is closer to 15 minutes than 5 minutes.

This has nothing to do with the timegrapher, because the stabilisation time is intrinsic to the caliber. A timegrapher is just the instrument that measures it. As you know, the rates are directly measured and the amplitudes are calculated via the lift angle.

Suggestion: Maybe you can easily (?) measure the stabilisation time for your Patek movement using your Witschi. You do a full winding, install the watch directly onto your prepared Witschi and immediately start your measurements in TRACE mode, log data every 2 s, and measure for let's say 30 minutes. Post the data, if you can extrat them from the timegrapher, or post a Witschi screenshot.

PS: I am not sure that your Witschi Watch Expert IV can do what I propose above because I remember that this Witschi model does not have the TRACE mode functionality. Is that correct or not?

Good info. Though being a bit hardheaded I still wouldn’t trust the Chinese machines. I will run your test except I’m now in Zimbabwe far from my Witschi.
I don’t recall a TRACE mode but will find out.
Regards, Frank

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by fsprow

Good info. Though being a bit hardheaded I still wouldn’t trust the Chinese machines. I will run your test except I’m now in Zimbabwe far from my Witschi.
I don’t recall a TRACE mode but will find out.
Regards, Frank

Fair enough, Frank, me too

I think you are making an important claim and you need to back it up with serious timegrapher data, with full disclosure of all details.

Don't worry, this discussion is very interesting to me and I've already started some timegrapher study with a 4 Hz movement.

I'll be back ...

[Smobews]

Great stuff saxo3 and fsprow. Very interesting discussion.

[motodude95]

I guarantee a surprising percentage of those who voted in the anonymous poll saying there is an issue with their movement do not own a 32xx movement. People love to exacerbate a problem when given the opportunity online.

[saxo3]

Now even the smallest lights are trying to reverse the facts?

This new member just voted "no issue" and the percentage went up slightly, understandable?

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Smobews

Great stuff saxo3 and fsprow. Very interesting discussion.

Thank you!

[motodude95]

I’m new to the forum and I can tell with certainty you’re the guardian of the facts around here. I’m not denying there are issues with the “new” movements - I think it’s pretty apparent there are. But I don’t believe your poll is at all an accurate reflection of reality. I’d be surprised if the actual number of watches developing the issues exceeds 10%. Which is still a massive amount, but more realistic.

You geeks spent years creating a massive thread aggregating timegrapher results on your $10k luxury watches. If you told normal people you did that they’d find it hilarious. So much time dedicated to something stupid you actually feel like you accomplished something meaningful.. If potential issues bother you just go live your life and don’t buy the product.

[CaptT]

Originally Posted by motodude95

I guarantee a surprising percentage of those who voted in the anonymous poll saying there is an issue with their movement do not own a 32xx movement. People love to exacerbate a problem when given the opportunity online.

It’s possible, proof isn’t required to submit a response either way.

More likely is that there is probably a surprisingly high % of respondents that replied “no issues” at that time where the known 32xx problem subsequently developed. From what I can see it’s not possible to change your vote once cast.

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by motodude95

I guarantee a surprising percentage of those who voted in the anonymous poll saying there is an issue with their movement do not own a 32xx movement. People love to exacerbate a problem when given the opportunity online.

Guarantee? Like do I get my money back or something? I think you grossly underestimate the power of the Rolex brand loyalty. I believe, but certainly won’t guarantee, far more, by a long margin more brand loyalists refuse to accept that there is an issue with this movement series over those who want to dogpile a problem for dramatic effect.

[Stan Cooper]

Oops! Old news. Sorry.

[motodude95]

Originally Posted by Easy E

Guarantee? Like do I get my money back or something? I think you grossly underestimate the power of the Rolex brand loyalty. I believe, but certainly won’t guarantee, far more, by a long margin more brand loyalists refuse to accept that there is an issue with this movement series over those who want to dogpile a problem for dramatic effect.

If you think so just don’t buy the product why waste so much effort and time crying about it here.

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by motodude95

If you think so just don’t buy the product why waste so much effort and time crying about it here.

Watches are a hobby, an interest that I have too much time, and too much money tied up in. I have enjoyed learning all kinds of things about such on this forum. The mechanics of how they work, or don’t in this case, to the threads on fine levels of detailed finishing and all points in between are all part of the hobby. I’m not crying one bit about it, everything I have posted in this thread has been to the best of my abilities very matter of fact and neutral about the subject. Facts and data are a peculiar thing.

Other than a couple of pieces that I knew I could get out of with little risk I have stopped buying 32 series watches. The ones I have bought were mostly looking for changes in behavior in the movement. My personal collection is down from a high of 10 32s to now only one. My watch money is going elsewhere, or at least to non-32s. No crying, no regrets, just trying to participate in a forum about a hobby I enjoy.

[enjoythemusic]

Sounds to me like some of you should just stick with older Rolex models. All is good and fine with the world that way too. :)

[saxo3]

A few things you better know before you start measuring your watches with a timegrapher.

There is a current TRF thread entitled "Timegrapher procedure", to which I have just posted a contribution.

It may be of interest to new members joining here who wish to perform and understand their own timegrapher measurements for either 32xx or other movements.

Here is a copy/paste of my post #10:

Originally Posted by Pinchy

Wow that was EXACTLY what I was after. I used search but yeah that gem is heavily burried.

What's the source of the procedure information? A former / current rolex tech? This seems very time consuming for an AD to be doing this?

A few things you better know before you start measuring your watches with a timegrapher.

Timegraphers can not measure or detect the lift angles of mechanical movements.

Lift angles are a parameter that has to be selected in device settings. The selected lift angle is used to calculate the amplitudes of a caliber. A timegrapher only measures the rates.

Most watch brands do not provide the lift angles for their various movements. You need to find a reliable source.

It is possible to measure the lift angle of a caliber optically, it requires a (very) special instrument.

Most timegraphers determine the beat rate of a movement by themselves. This is reliable for all instruments I have used. Available timegraphers have the option to select the beat rate in their settings.

A wrong lift angle setting will not affect the reading of the movement rates (in s/d) but will result in incorrect amplitudes (in °). For a Rolex 3235 caliber, it is measured that there is a 5° amplitude increase (decrease) per 1° higher (lower) lift angle. Measuring at 55° instead of the correct 53° overestimates the amplitudes by about 10°, see my post 4243.

If you intend to analyse Rolex watches with 32xx movements, the lift angle is 53° as specified in an official Rolex document. For 31xx movements, the lift angle is 52°.

Be careful with Omega co-axial movements, they need a timegrapher with a special mode to determine the amplitudes correctly, the rates are measured correctly with "cheap" timegraphers.

If you want to determine the condition of a caliber, you have to measure amplitudes, rates, beat errors in all positions. Rolex calibers are regulated for 5, not 6, positions. Other brands do better, they regulate all 6 positions, 12 up included. Measure first after full winding (t = 0) and 24 hours later. It is better to measure along the entire power reserve, e.g., every 12 hours, until the movement stops.

Feel free to join this thread if you want to discuss your results for 32xx watches.

The procedure you asked about is my own, which I have discussed and checked with several watchmakers of various brands, including Rolex. The time it takes for an AD is of no interest to me. There is a lot of half-knowledge and nonsense on the internet.

Last but not least, install your watch correctly onto your timegrapher, see my post 5570.

[hl0m4n]

pre and post service.

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Sounds to me like some of you should just stick with older Rolex models. All is good and fine with the world that way too. :)

I did just that. Well, that and a couple of 9001s and a 4131. De-32'd my deal.

[BarracksSi]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Some thread statistics after 4 years.

Over the past year, this thread had 57 new participants posting their experience; the poll had 150 additional voters.

The percentage of members who had issues with their watches and voted remained around 30 %.

If I post a vote now, can I change it later?

My DJ41, bought May '24, has kept a steady -1.2 s/d ever since. But I'll keep an eye on it and see if/when it gets worse.

My boss also has (or had?) a 32xx that developed the issue and started losing time.

Don't have a timegrapher, sorry; just using an app to track its deviation.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by BarracksSi

If I post a vote now, can I change it later?

No, once you have voted you can't change it.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Easy E

De-32'd my deal.

So you're out now?

[Cortez1519]

I am interested in this survey. I'd like to participate as well. I have a 24 3230 and a 22 3235. What are the number of full winds (manual). I have seen the rest of your protocol a few posts above.

Have you already reported out results from this survey? Did you note differences in performance based on year of production? I am fascinated by this sort of inquiry. Thank you for starting this thread!

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by saxo3

So you're out now?

Sorry, down to one, the BLNR.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Easy E

Sorry, down to one, the BLNR.

One is better than two or more.

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by saxo3

One is better than two or more.

Especially one that works.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Easy E

Especially one that works.

Still? Your BLNR is from 07/2019. The last timegrapher data you submitted was from 06/2024. So your 3285 has not made 5 full years (data proven) without problems.

[Didlux]

Hello from Luxemburg, this is my first post here. My daughter bought a new DJ 36 with 32xx 24 months ago .
Last week, I noticed it was going slow (around 15s a day instead of 2s when new. I have a Weishi 1900 that confirmed -15s/day and amplitude 225 at full wind. Was 275 when new . Brought it to Rolex AD and he confirmed all data.

So unfortunately, watch have will be service under warranty, but AD seems to know perfectly what else to do.

A little bit disappointing, we have several Rolex in the family since more than 40 years (31XX and 4030) and never got this before. Hope that after service, watch will work fine again for years.

Please, excuse my less-than-perfect english

[Dr. Robert]

Originally Posted by Didlux

Hello from Luxemburg, this is my first post here. My daughter bought a new DJ 36 with 32xx 24 months ago .
Last week, I noticed it was going slow (around 15s a day instead of 2s when new. I have a Weishi 1900 that confirmed -15s/day and amplitude 225 at full wind. Was 275 when new . Brought it to Rolex AD and he confirmed all data.

So unfortunately, watch have will be service under warranty, but AD seems to know perfectly what else to do.

A little bit disappointing, we have several Rolex in the family since more than 40 years (31XX and 4030) and never got this before. Hope that after service, watch will work fine again for years.

Please, excuse my less-than-perfect english

Your English is perfect


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Didlux]

[QUOTE=Dr. Robert;13565472]Your English is perfect


Thank you !

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Didlux

Hello from Luxemburg, this is my first post here. My daughter bought a new DJ 36 with 32xx 24 months ago .
Last week, I noticed it was going slow (around 15s a day instead of 2s when new. I have a Weishi 1900 that confirmed -15s/day and amplitude 225 at full wind. Was 275 when new . Brought it to Rolex AD and he confirmed all data.

So unfortunately, watch have will be service under warranty, but AD seems to know perfectly what else to do.

A little bit disappointing, we have several Rolex in the family since more than 40 years (31XX and 4030) and never got this before. Hope that after service, watch will work fine again for years.

Please, excuse my less-than-perfect english

Welcome!

When you get your watch back, I suggest you measure rates, amplitudes, beat errors in all 5 positions, after full winding and 24 hours later. A detailed timegrapher procedure can be found in post #5002.

Who repairs your 32xx watch, the AD or a RSC?
Did you read this thread?

[Didlux]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Welcome!

When you get your watch back, I suggest you measure rates, amplitudes, beat errors in all 5 positions, after full winding and 24 hours later. A detailed timegrapher procedure can be found in post #5002.

Who repairs your 32xx watch, the AD or a RSC?
Did you read this thread?

The AD will service himself, no need to send to RSC ( there are only 2 AD in all Luxemburg, the RSC is in Bruxelles, Belgium)

Will read thread 5002 and do after service.

I already did when new and I can give you results (full winding)

Amplitude : 275 Lift Angle :53, Beat error between 0 and 0,1 Weishi 1900
DU _2
DD -1
3U - 1
6U -2
9U -1

Did not test after 24h when new