Timegrapher procedure

[Pinchy]

TLDR, what are the actual steps and calculations for using a timegrapher to verify the proper functioning of a modern rolex?

I don't mean roughly speaking, I mean, what procedure, subsequent measurements, calcs and thresholds would warrant an immediate service under warranty.

I've heard lots of conflicting stuff, and then I have the raw measurements and don't know what to make of it. I have a lot of watches that will have their warranties expire in the next 12 months and it would honestly be painstaking and a complete bore to take all of them to the AD and have them perform the testing.

[saxo3]

https://www.rolexforums.com/showpost...postcount=5002

[KatGirl]

I own a Timegrapher and check my watches periodically. For a Rolex, If the Amplitude is low, less than 250, after a full wind (50 turns) or watch is running out of spec (-2 to +2 sec.) or beat error is more than 0.2 milliseconds, your movement needs service.

Kat


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[Pinchy]

Originally Posted by saxo3

https://www.rolexforums.com/showpost...postcount=5002

Wow that was EXACTLY what I was after. I used search but yeah that gem is heavily burried.

What's the source of the procedure information? A former / current rolex tech? This seems very time consuming for an AD to be doing this?

[KatGirl]

Originally Posted by Pinchy

Wow that was EXACTLY what I was after. I used search but yeah that gem is heavily burried.

What's the source of the procedure information? A former / current rolex tech? This seems very time consuming for an AD to be doing this?

I don’t think ADs will perform Timegrapher testing for you. I know mine doesn’t do that. You would have to go to an AD with a Rolex certified watchmaker on site, who can actually service your watch. You also don’t need a Timegrapher to know if your watch is way out of spec. Just set it to the exact second, wear it for a week, see how much it has lost or gained, divide that number by seven. You can check the power reserve, by handwinding 50 full turns (slowly), and letting it sit, see if it lasts 70 hours. If you have a lot of watches, just buy a Timegrapher. I thoroughly enjoy testing my watches. My 3 newer Rolexes are all well within spec.

Kat


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[Lol-x]

53 degrees lift angle how do we know that is correct?

[77T]

Originally Posted by Lol-x

53 degrees lift angle how do we know that is correct?

For the 3235/3255, 53° is listed in a comprehensive list of lift angles.

30xx/31xx, 52°...

https://watchguy.co.uk/cgi-bin/lift_angles


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[Lol-x]

OK Paul that is great information.

Pity the link doesn't list the Cartier 184MC movement lift angle. But I found it, its 50 degrees.

Although timegraphers seem to autodetect lift angles on watches, I think that the auto detection function is not very reliable.

This is why I ask and ensure that the lift angle is properly set manually as may be necessary to get accurate results.

I can't see a lift angle for a Daytona movement listed....

[77T]

Yeah Steve, Caliber Corner has the newer generation of that 184MC in their listings. And it does show 50°

On the Daytona, I'm going out on a limb at 52° because the underpinning is the ElPrimero Zenith 400.

To the timegrapher convo in general, the OP was asking for lift angles to perform his own analysis of movements inside watches that are nearing the end of their respective guarantees.

I'm not judging anyone who is hoping for a free regulation, but the best measure is actual performance over a period of days to see if one's watch needs work. The timegrapher results of very low amplitude would be a clear signal, of course.


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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Pinchy

Wow that was EXACTLY what I was after. I used search but yeah that gem is heavily burried.

What's the source of the procedure information? A former / current rolex tech? This seems very time consuming for an AD to be doing this?

A few things you better know before you start measuring your watches with a timegrapher.

Timegraphers can not measure or detect the lift angles of mechanical movements.

Lift angles are a parameter that has to be selected in device settings. The selected lift angle is used to calculate the amplitudes of a caliber. A timegrapher only measures the rates.

Most watch brands do not provide the lift angles for their various movements. You need to find a reliable source.

It is possible to measure the lift angle of a caliber optically, it requires a (very) special instrument.

Most timegraphers determine the beat rate of a movement by themselves. This is reliable for all instruments I have used. Available timegraphers have the option to select the beat rate in their settings.

A wrong lift angle setting will not affect the reading of the movement rates (in s/d) but will result in incorrect amplitudes (in °). For a Rolex 3235 caliber, it is measured that there is a 5°
amplitude increase (decrease) per 1° higher (lower) lift angle. Measuring at 55° instead of the correct 53° overestimates the amplitudes by about 10°, see my post 4243.

If you intend to analyse Rolex watches with 32xx movements, the lift angle is 53° as specified in an official Rolex document. For 31xx movements, the lift angle is 52°.

Be careful with Omega co-axial movements, they need a timegrapher with a special mode to determine the amplitudes correctly, the rates are measured correctly with "cheap" timegraphers.

If you want to determine the condition of a caliber, you have to measure amplitudes, rates, beat errors in all positions. Rolex calibers are regulated for 5, not 6, positions. Other brands do better, they regulate all 6 positions, 12 up included. Measure first after full winding (t = 0) and 24 hours later. It is better to measure along the entire power reserve, e.g., every 12 hours, until the movement stops.

Feel free to join this thread if you want to discuss your results for 32xx watches.

The procedure you asked about is my own, which I have discussed and checked with several watchmakers of various brands, including Rolex. The time it takes for an AD is of no interest to me. There is a lot of half-knowledge and nonsense on the internet.

Last but not least, install your watch correctly onto your timegrapher, see my post 5570.

[geoach]

i'll get flamed....... but when a one of my watch breaks or timing is wayyyyyyy off I get it fixed. I don't want to keep reading vitals before it dies. I'm NOT talking watchmakers here just watch owners.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by geoach

i'll get flamed....... but when a one of my watch breaks or timing is wayyyyyyy off I get it fixed. I don't want to keep reading vitals before it dies. I'm NOT talking watchmakers here just watch owners.

Dame philosophy here

I understand for some, timeographers and such are an interesting part of the hobby though.

[ratty]

Surely you just wear the watch for a week or two and see if it keeps good time?

[padi56]

Originally Posted by brandrea

Dame philosophy here

I understand for some, timeographers and such are an interesting part of the hobby though.

Have to agree Brian but many things like timegraphers loupes etc can and often can be a Rolex owners worst enemy. Anyone with any common sense can see if any movement is not keeping proper time by checking any reliable time source,

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by brandrea

Dame philosophy here

I understand for some, timeographers and such are an interesting part of the hobby though.

Love me some Dame philosophy, Eddie

[77T]

Originally Posted by ratty

Surely you just wear the watch for a week or two and see if it keeps good time?

Originally Posted by geoach

i'll get flamed....... but when a one of my watch breaks or timing is wayyyyyyy off I get it fixed. I don't want to keep reading vitals before it dies. I'm NOT talking watchmakers here just watch owners.

....and don't call me Shirley....no flames....
(Had to get the Airplane movie non-sequitur into this convo)

Why do I agree?
Because a timegrapher is a good tool in a diagnostic manner for a watchmaker.

I rhink that it can induce unnecessary worry in the wrong hands. As Peter said, it may induce OCD2WIS.

When is a timegrapher most useful?
Twice every 10 years (or so)
IMHO, the day before you drop the watch off for its routine overhaul; followed by the day after the watchmaker returns it to you.

The amplitude is worth noting - you just spent $$$ (maybe $$$$) and should know if it came back in better shape.


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[77T]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Love me some Dame philosophy, Eddie

Did Brian change his name?


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[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Love me some Dame philosophy, Eddie

Dame you Adam


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[Thomas Mudge]

Originally Posted by KatGirl

I own a Timegrapher and check my watches periodically. For a Rolex, If the Amplitude is low, less than 250, after a full wind (50 turns) or watch is running out of spec (-2 to +2 sec.) or beat error is more than 0.2 milliseconds, your movement needs service.

Don't forget COSC allows -4 +8
Kat


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250 is not bad for a watch that had been in service for 10 years.
Most calibers have a range of up to 20 seconds in 5 positions
-2 +2 isn't a fair range to give an amateur.

Beat error can be .8ms and be in spec.

COCS allows up to -4 and +6

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by brandrea

I understand for some, timeographers and such are an interesting part of the hobby though.

I find it interesting and often therapeutic. I have also learned a great deal about my watches and watches in general since playing around with mine. In all reality I only measure a couple of watches a couple of times a year, or if I think one is having an issue.



I also have a hard time understanding why this topic is so difficult for a lot people here. I get that it may not be an area of interest to this person or that, but the technical aspects of whats going on under the hood are very relevant to the hobby. To me, it is no different at all to threads about finishing at a near microscopic level. That is important to some and not to others. Doesn't make either aspect right or wrong. Yet, almost no one pokes fun at the finish topics. However, I think we can universally pick on the should I put stickers on my watch or what's my watch worth types.

[brandrea]

Agreed

I’ve been guilty of poking fun at the sticker crowd and I’ll try to remember that we all come here with our own biases.

Always good to be open minded


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[Pinchy]

Thank you so much for the info, especially Saxo.

I feel the need to explain that wearing the watch is not practical in my case because

a) I never set them accurately to begin with
B) I rotate through them too quickly even if I did
C) some time with a timegrapher is a quick way of tracking when things are going pear shaped before they happen, which is very valuable if the watch is under warranty.

[Calatrava r]

Originally Posted by Pinchy

Thank you so much for the info, especially Saxo.

I feel the need to explain that wearing the watch is not practical in my case because

a) I never set them accurately to begin with
B) I rotate through them too quickly even if I did
C) some time with a timegrapher is a quick way of tracking when things are going pear shaped before they happen, which is very valuable if the watch is under warranty.

It is fine if you want to do this as part interacting with your hobby, but it is really not needed to enjoy your watches. Setting your watches accurately to the correct time and second will tell you quite a lot about your watch's operation over just say a 24-hour period.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by 77T

Did Brian change his name?


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All for the better Paul.

[502 to Right]

I agree with most of what was in the breakout post--with a few caveats.

1) The post was taken from a debate about the 32XX movement amplitude problem. That's why it says set the lift angle to 53. If you have a movement other than 32XX do a Google search for the proper lift angle for your movement. All of the Rolex lift angles are published out there somewhere.

2) I disagree with the advice to have the watch sit for 15 minutes before testing to stabilize the movement. I specifically addressed this with my Rolex AD certified watchmaker. He told me the modern Rolex movements (i.e., anything made in the last 40 years) will stabilize within seconds--not minutes. To be careful, I let my watch sit for at least a minute before testing.

3) Make sure you are testing in a quiet environment. The timegrapher works with a microphone listening to the sounds of the movement. You do not want outside noise interfering with getting proper measurements.

4) To assess low amplitude this is not done at full wind. It is measured 24 hours after a full wind (which means 24 hours with no more winding by hand, and no rotor movement that will wind the watch). In other words, let the watch sit for 24 hours. Then take all the measurements again. Amplitude needs to be 200 or higher (averaged across the 5 positions) to pass.

[KatGirl]

Originally Posted by Thomas Mudge

250 is not bad for a watch that had been in service for 10 years.
Most calibers have a range of up to 20 seconds in 5 positions
-2 +2 isn't a fair range to give an amateur.

Beat error can be .8ms and be in spec.

COCS allows up to -4 and +6

You are right, of course it’s +6! I must have hit the wrong number. The .02 spec for beat error is Rolex standard, while other watch manufacturers are more generous.

Kat


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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by KatGirl

I own a Timegrapher and check my watches periodically. For a Rolex, If the Amplitude is low, less than 250, after a full wind (50 turns) or watch is running out of spec (-2 to +2 sec.) or beat error is more than 0.2 milliseconds, your movement needs service.
Kat

Nonsense.

Originally Posted by KatGirl

You are right, of course it’s +6! I must have hit the wrong number. The .02 spec for beat error is Rolex standard, while other watch manufacturers are more generous.
Kat

Nonsense.
The Rolex after-sales rate tolerance document specifies a maximum beat tolerances of 0.8 ms for most calibers.
Some Rolex movements (all 32xx) are specified at 0.5 ms.

Originally Posted by Thomas Mudge

250 is not bad for a watch that had been in service for 10 years. (agreed)
Most calibers have a range of up to 20 seconds in 5 positions (Rate, 1st criterion tolerance: max. 9 s/d for all 32xx)
-2 +2 isn't a fair range to give an amateur. (agreed)

Beat error can be .8ms and be in spec. correct (max. 0.5 ms for all 32xx)

COCS allows up to -4 and +6 (correct)

[Smobews]

Originally Posted by KatGirl

You are right, of course it’s +6! I must have hit the wrong number. The .02 spec for beat error is Rolex standard, while other watch manufacturers are more generous.

Kat


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Rolex spec is 0.5 max beat error for 32** series movements.

[KatGirl]

Originally Posted by Smobews

Rolex spec is 0.5 max beat error for 32** series movements.

Yes that’s the max allowable, but they’d prefer it be less than that.

Kat


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