18k Oyster (i.e. 16618) is hollow!

[sevykor]

Many have debated whether the 18k sub oyster bracelet has hollow links. We know that the SS and SS/18k are hollow as it is obvious from looking at the side of the bracelet and seeing the empty space. I performed a little experiment and learned that all 18k oyster bracelets are not solid gold all the way through (likely the center portion of the link). This may not apply to the new GMTIIc or 116618 as I don't have one to do the check.

Here's what I did:
Specific gravity of 18k gold is 15.58 g/mL
Weight of 18 sub bracelet is approx. 84.3g
Volume is 10mL (+/- 0.2 m/L) - used beakers and flasks.
Approximate density is 8.43 g/mL (obviously less than 15.58 g/mL had it been solid).

The watch bracelet would weigh about 155 grams if all links were solid. If you look at the side of the bracelet, it looks as if though it is solid because it doesn't have the center link spaces like on other subs (16610 or 16613), but Rolex figured out a way to cheat and make it hollow w/o the appearance of being hollow. I tried the density experiment with other 18k jewelry (that I knew was not hollow) and always got 15.4 - 15.8 g/mL. I don't know about everyone else, but it's pretty CHEAP of Rolex to scam the gold off a watch that was selling for 20k new. FYI, you can do the experiment yourself if you have mL measuring cups, etc, a scale (grams) and some time. The densities of gold (yellow only) are as follows: 24k=19.32, 18k=15.58, 14k=13.07 & 10k=11.57.

[SLS]

You have waaaaaaaay too much time on your hands! Thanks for the info though,
Scott

[Athonatron]

Well well, interesting indeed.

[Dalton]

the cases are not exactly solid either.

[Omega_Precision]

This would fall in the same category with Rolex's quality control -or- they are blatantly charging high prices for a weak bracelet and deceiving the public on their gold models as well.

Rolex has such a great history with their watches. In today's society, it is outrageous for them to charge the prices they do in return for this.....good find!.. to the OP. Maybe you should post this in the watch review forum as well.

I wonder if this is the same with their newer jubilee bracelets. From owners' reviews and pictures the newer jubilee looks amazing!

[sevykor]

Originally Posted by Dalton

the cases are not exactly solid either.

The cases are solid, can't cheat here because Rolex claims to mill cases out of a single ingot of steel or gold. Links are a whole other story.

[Wildwing]

Very interesting. I knew there were good reasons to like the Jubilee bracelet. Harder for them to cheat that one, I believe.

[ArizonaHD]

Originally Posted by sevykor

The cases are solid, can't cheat here because Rolex claims to mill cases out of a single ingot of steel or gold. Links are a whole other story.

I would not question or doubt Dalton, he works with restoring Rolex cases daily. Yes we all have seen the solid ingot claim in the rolex booklet, but that was in a bygone era.


I deal with Gold all day, nothing in assay is relative to the stamping, 18K never assay's at .750 and 14K never assay's at 58.5% gold 54 - 56% is the best you can hope for.

[marshallr47]

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

[tro16565]

Rolex gold bracelet is not made of a solid gold. Because gold is too weak. It will become loose faster and yet it is too heavy. In stead they use a high quality gold plate. The bracelet is then lighter, more comfortable to wear and stronger. It will last a life time without fade. But they just command a high premium for their high quality gold plate (can't justify if it's too high). They don't cheat.

[Adam K.]

Rolex cases most certainly are stamped from ingots of 18K, platinum or (904L) stainless--certainly, cases are clearly not "Solid" in the sense they must be machined out to contain a movement/dial, etc (the same as any watch, obviously!). But, naturally, the screw-down back is also of the same material as the case, and varies in thickness from one model to the other (the SUb for example, will be thicker than the Day-Date or Datejust, which have lower WR ratings).

As for bracelets, its well-known that certain older Rolex models--the Day-Date with President bracelet being a good example--had capped 18K gold links---real gold to be sure, but yes, less of it that had the link been solid all the way through. New Day-Dates, from I believe...2000 onward...have featured new bracelets that dispense with the capping, and are completely solid. I would think Oyster and Jubilee bracelets from the same time frame would also conform to the new, more expensive construction. Still, even the "old" bracelets were made from 18K gold, and not some plated substitute.

Going way back in time, while Rolex has made some "gold-filled" models, and others in 14K (and even 9K, going back to the 20's/30's/40's) gold, they don't employ gold electroplating for anything.

To be honest, even TAG Heuer, who made loads of somewhat cheesy plated watches back in the 80's, has largely dispensed with plating, except in some models within their entry-level collections like the Aquaracer, etc.---TAG Heuer's expanded "higher-end" lines like the Carrera now offer watches in 18K gold cases, to reflect their push to create a more upmarket brand image ("more Heuer, less TAG" you might say).

[Singslinger]

Originally Posted by tro16565

Rolex gold bracelet is not made of a solid gold. Because gold is too weak. It will become loose faster and yet it is too heavy. In stead they use a high quality gold plate. The bracelet is then lighter, more comfortable to wear and stronger. It will last a life time without fade. But they just command a high premium for their high quality gold plate (can't justify if it's too high). They don't cheat.

Ah, so the plot thickens!

[Adam K.]

Not trying to spoil the delightful tingle of some brewing luxury watch conspiracy theory...but our friend Noom here is misinformed on this issue, plain and simple.

[tro16565]

Adam,

You are not spoiling anything. It's kind of sharing information which is a positive thing. Then I think I used the wrong English term. In stead of a high quality gold plated it should called a "gold capped" which is a thick layer of gold wrapping the steel. In my language we call "a thick gold plated". In 1993 the local gold Smith quoted the price of making a solid gold bracelet to replace a real Rolex bracelet of a Gold lady DJ of my mom which he said made of a "gold plated" (in my language term). Still remember that the price of the real solid gold bracelet he quoted was cheaper than the Rolax capped gold bracelet (back then). So she didn't change to use a cheaper one eventually.

Noom

[sevykor]

Originally Posted by tro16565

Rolex gold bracelet is not made of a solid gold. Because gold is too weak. It will become loose faster and yet it is too heavy. In stead they use a high quality gold plate. The bracelet is then lighter, more comfortable to wear and stronger. It will last a life time without fade. But they just command a high premium for their high quality gold plate (can't justify if it's too high). They don't cheat.

Please note, Rolex uses solid 18k gold and doesn't use any kind of "PLATE, WRAP or LAYERING" on the bracelets. When I say "hollow". I am referring to the link having a hollow center. Kind of like a glass Coke bottle, it's solid glass but hollow inside. The only plate that I am aware of is in the springs and possibly crown (as it must maintain a certain level of hardness to prevent thread wear).

To address pre v. post 2000 bracelets (such as in the President model), the Oyster does not apply as even the M 16618 Sub has the same gram weight as the bracelet I tested. This information regarding weight was kindly obtained by asking jewelers and watch sellers to submit the weights of the oyster 18k bracelets (ALL BEING OF SAME WEIGHT) through out a broad range of dates (including 2008 models). I did not test the 116618 (2009) model as the equation changes due to the new style clasp although the density test can still be performed if one wants to know.

[tro16565]

if a solid 18k gold in your term mean that it is a real gold, yes, it is. And yes I know what you mean by hollow link which to what I know it's not hollow. It's a solid pieace of metal of steel inside with a solid gold outside (yes, maybe like the gold crown). However, you may be right I might be wrong. One thing for sure, It's not a solid pieace of full gold. And I believe that Rolex has good reason. Still remember seeing one of my mom friends who did change a president gold bracelet to local gold Smith made solid gold bracelet (a solid pieace of full gold) had problem of the bracelet became loose too soon and it is heavier than a Rolex gold bracelet. It's clear that Rolex bracelet is a good quality. I'm also sure that it's not easy to make. My bottom line is Rolex don't cheat.

[Tools]

You guys have way too much time on your hands....and unusual testing methods..........

The older center links were made from drawn, seamless tubing. The links were cut to the proper length, and then pressed, or formed into the flat shape of a link...this resulted in a "hollow" center for the link pins to fit through..

The new ones start as a solid piece (yes, solid) of 18k gold, (or SS) formed in the shape of a very, very wide link, then cut to proper width. The piece is then machined with a single hole in one end for the single stud or screw pin, and the other end is machined with an elongatated, double hole because that end (the end you don't see) has two studs in it to hold it in position at the fixed end..

So, the only difference between the "hollow" links and the "solid" links is that the solids have a thin web between the single hole and the elongated double hole.. The solid center links aren't really "solid" because the three studs that hold the bracelet together have to go through them, but then there isn't any attempt at deception, or "cheating" anybody either.

[Kokyuryoku]

Originally Posted by Tools

You guys have way too much time on your hands....and unusual testing methods..........

The older center links were made from drawn, seamless tubing. The links were cut to the proper length, and then pressed, or formed into the flat shape of a link...this resulted in a "hollow" center for the link pins to fit through..

The new ones start as a solid piece (yes, solid) of 18k gold, (or SS) formed in the shape of a very, very wide link, then cut to proper width. The piece is then machined with a single hole in one end for the single stud or screw pin, and the other end is machined with an elongatated, double hole because that end (the end you don't see) has two studs in it to hold it in position at the fixed end..

So, the only difference between the "hollow" links and the "solid" links is that the solids have a thin web between the single hole and the elongated double hole.. The solid center links aren't really "solid" because the three studs that hold the bracelet together have to go through them, but then there isn't any attempt at deception, or "cheating" anybody either.

Makes sense.

[The Mole]

Originally Posted by sevykor

To address pre v. post 2000 bracelets (such as in the President model), the Oyster does not apply as even the M 16618 Sub has the same gram weight as the bracelet I tested. This information regarding weight was kindly obtained by asking jewelers and watch sellers to submit the weights of the oyster 18k bracelets (ALL BEING OF SAME WEIGHT) through out a broad range of dates (including 2008 models). I did not test the 116618 (2009) model as the equation changes due to the new style clasp although the density test can still be performed if one wants to know.

In pre v. post 2000 bracelets the oyster bracelet DOES apply, just not the one that you are testing. After 2000 Rolex started updating all their bracelets and clasps, the Submariner is the only all gold model that had not been done until the year 2008. I have a feeling the NEW Oyster bracelet for the Submariner (minus the clasp) is heavier than the old.

[entropydave]

the lugs on the case have been hollowed out-you can see that in the picture of the empty case in the Rolex booklet you get with the watch. I am not too impressed with that I must say!

[behardt]

I badly dented a link and when they were trying to smooth the link down past the dent, they cut through to the center hole of the hollow link. $2700 for rolex to fix.

[sevykor]

Originally Posted by Tools

You guys have way too much time on your hands....and unusual testing methods..........

The older center links were made from drawn, seamless tubing. The links were cut to the proper length, and then pressed, or formed into the flat shape of a link...this resulted in a "hollow" center for the link pins to fit through..

The new ones start as a solid piece (yes, solid) of 18k gold, (or SS) formed in the shape of a very, very wide link, then cut to proper width. The piece is then machined with a single hole in one end for the single stud or screw pin, and the other end is machined with an elongatated, double hole because that end (the end you don't see) has two studs in it to hold it in position at the fixed end..

So, the only difference between the "hollow" links and the "solid" links is that the solids have a thin web between the single hole and the elongated double hole.. The solid center links aren't really "solid" because the three studs that hold the bracelet together have to go through them, but then there isn't any attempt at deception, or "cheating" anybody either.

Yes, It may have been milled out like you stated above. My dissapointment is with the amount that was milled out. I am also referring to the center portion of the link and hidden by the 2 left/right preceding link portions. I even noticed that the area dents easy too (just from looking at other watches). There is no doubt it's still better than what they did with 16610 and 16613 models.

Regarding pre or post 2000, there is no difference in 18k sub bracelet weights - 2009 may be different.

[sevykor]

Originally Posted by behardt

I badly dented a link and when they were trying to smooth the link down past the dent, they cut through to the center hole of the hollow link. $2700 for rolex to fix.

Exactly my point, a thin layer of gold on the center link.

Although the nice part about gold is that some damage can be repaired by a jeweler with less cost. Gold is relatively easy to work with and filling holes or mending breaks can often be performed locally without the expense of sending it to Rolex.

[ArizonaHD]

Originally Posted by Adam K.

Rolex cases most certainly are stamped from ingots of 18K, platinum or (904L) stainless--certainly, cases are clearly not "Solid" in the sense they must be machined out to contain a movement/dial, etc (the same as any watch, obviously!). But, naturally, the screw-down back is also of the same material as the case, and varies in thickness from one model to the other (the SUb for example, will be thicker than the Day-Date or Datejust, which have lower WR ratings).

As for bracelets, its well-known that certain older Rolex models--the Day-Date with President bracelet being a good example--had capped 18K gold links---real gold to be sure, but yes, less of it that had the link been solid all the way through. New Day-Dates, from I believe...2000 onward...have featured new bracelets that dispense with the capping, and are completely solid. I would think Oyster and Jubilee bracelets from the same time frame would also conform to the new, more expensive construction. Still, even the "old" bracelets were made from 18K gold, and not some plated substitute.

Going way back in time, while Rolex has made some "gold-filled" models, and others in 14K (and even 9K, going back to the 20's/30's/40's) gold, they don't employ gold electroplating for anything.

To be honest, even TAG Heuer, who made loads of somewhat cheesy plated watches back in the 80's, has largely dispensed with plating, except in some models within their entry-level collections like the Aquaracer, etc.---TAG Heuer's expanded "higher-end" lines like the Carrera now offer watches in 18K gold cases, to reflect their push to create a more upmarket brand image ("more Heuer, less TAG" you might say).

Rolex made Gold Filled watches into the 60's and used a gold cap over SS in the Zephyr (precision and date) models into the early 70's I sold a pair of gold capped oysters about a year back.

Now Tudors were electroplated, but a Tudor is NOT a rolex, just their lower / entry line

[Z-Sub]

Most can probably feel the difference of the "solid" vs "hollow" links if the bracelet is handled. I like the heavier feel of solid links but other than the polished center links in some models, the look are almost identical.