Bad sign, serial number issue :(

[Bozzie1982]

Originally Posted by HogwldFLTR

Terrible news; FWIW, papers can easily be forged, and boxes bought. They guarantee nothing. On the other hand, I'd love to hear how the discussion with the jewelry store is going.

As far as I'm aware rolex don't and won't communicate with dealers as to whether a Rolex is stolen before they sell so that probably wouldn't have been possible.

There is a lost and stolen watch register which should have been checked prior to any sale. The majority of insurance companies will place the watch on this if it's reported as stolen.

I'm with you, I wouldn't want another watch from that company.

Fingers crossed everything works out.

[Giovannibravo]

Has the OP heard anything from the dealer?


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[brandrea]

Originally Posted by giovannibravo

has the op heard anything from the dealer?


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x 2

[jb335]

Originally Posted by Cambo

I would never buy without papers. Period. Dealers who buy (and sell) watches without definitive proof of ownership are part of the problem. Sure the *nod nod wink wink* sale to unseasoned buyers seems OK right up to the next Rolex service. By then, dealers are shrugging their shoulders with the “deer-in-the-headlights” look.
Having said that, buyers who do not demand proof of ownership, newbies or not, should be smarter. Caveat Emptor!!!

I agree if you are referring to modern only, does not apply to vintage buying though.

I am always amazed when I see a listing for a 12xxxx model without papers. Come on man. Would never consider buying in-production models without papers.

[KenV]

Hi,

I sent an email to the Munich dealer on Monday night, and no answer after two business days. I included a read receipt for the email, and no receipt received. It is a holiday here in Bavaria tomorrow, so I will wait until Friday and send them another note. On Monday, I guess I will send a registered letter to the store, and then look up a local lawyer.

I will also look to see if I still have the original Chrono24 ad that I printed and took with us to the store in 2019. Maybe I should have recognized a bad sign when the sales lady asked if I had contacted their store via Chrono24 and I send no, we just decided to print the Chrono24 ad and take a drive to Munich. She said they would have had to pay Chrono24 a commission if I had contacted the store via the Chrono24 web.

I will see if I can get the police report from Köln. I would like to see that the serial number on the report matches with my watch. I want to exclude any possible mistakes in the original 2017 Spanish report or a mistake by Rolex. It could be that the error is not with the Munich store, even though that is beginning to look unlikely, but I want to verify as much as I can.

From my point of view, I think the Munich store should have at least responded to my email saying they are sorry for the issues and they will quickly look into the issue and start their own check.

The silence from the store is a bit ominous.

I reread my previous post, and in regards to the other watch I bought, I bought it from a different dealer in Germany, but I did use the Chrono24 website, so the transaction is officially registered with them. I will have that watch checked at my local AD soon. It has a five year warranty that ends this year, so maybe they can see if it needs any service and they can check the Rolex database for that watch. I thought I had better validate that watches lineage now, and not five or ten years from now.

I also wonder if I will be contacted by the local police to see where I acquired the two tone bluesy watch. In theory, the Munich store should have a record as to who sold them the watch.

Not to make this post too long, but … this has been a disappointing experience, and it has soured my wife and I to the Rolex bluesy. My wife bought me my Sub in December 1990 as an engagement gift, and then in the summer of 1991 we moved to Bermuda for a few years for a work contract. She spotted a two tone blue sub at a store there and always wanted to get one for me. She bought this one for me for our 30th anniversary. She bought it a few years early, so I only used it occasionally until our anniversary. If we do get our money back, I doubt we will replace it with another bluesy. She did see a blue sky-dweller recently though :)

Anyways, certainly a long post. I will update this thread as the situation evolves.

Thanks,

Ken

[madsitalia]

Best of luck to you

[77T]

Sorry to learn it was indeed stolen.

The seller who put it on Chrono24 may be stranded on the deal. What I mean is the person/dealer from whom he got it might "stiff" him.

Since the deal was years ago, they may refuse to refund your money.

On the second watch, your AD can't check with Rolex. He would send it to the RSC like he did with the first one.

I see it was bought from a different Chrono24 dealer so hope you have better luck.

When these things happen, getting a refund is like a game of musical chairs. Hope you aren't the one left out. The dealer should make you whole since dealing in secondary Rolex market has stolen goods baked into the inventory costs. There is just no way for a dealer to definitively check a serial number. The registries on the Internet aren't true NCIC-quality databases.


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[CarlOver]

Sorry to hear about this mess. I would hope that this Munich dealer will verify the paperwork of your purchase and refund you the purchase price. Selling stolen watches is not a reputation that a jewelry store wants.

[KenV]

I paid the £10 for a search on the Watch Register, but the watch serial number is not on their database. I guess it is only on the Rolex database. I was hoping it would be in the Watch Register DB since the website indicates they would follow-up on any watches that were found in a search with the seller.

I guess if the Munich dealer checked using this database, the watch would have shown as no issues back in 2019.

Rolex should make their theft/lost database accessible so it can be checked, even if it is a chargeable search.

Ken

[KatGirl]

Originally Posted by KenV

I paid the £10 for a search on the Watch Register, but the watch serial number is not on their database. I guess it is only on the Rolex database. I was hoping it would be in the Watch Register DB since the website indicates they would follow-up on any watches that were found in a search with the seller.

I guess if the Munich dealer checked using this database, the watch would have shown as no issues back in 2019.

Rolex should make their theft/lost database accessible so it can be checked, even if it is a chargeable search.

Ken

Have you contacted the seller yet? We are all invested now, and want to make sure you are reimbursed. If not, the seller should be named, so anyone who sees this thread knows to avoid them.


Kat


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[77T]

Originally Posted by KenV

Rolex should make their theft/lost database accessible so it can be checked, even if it is a chargeable search.

If the DB was generally accessible then I would have never recovered 2 of my 4 stolen Rolexes. Thieves and others who deal in stolen Rolexes would never present a watch for service to the RSC.


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[Cauhauna]

Originally Posted by KenV

Rolex should make their theft/lost database accessible so it can be checked, even if it is a chargeable search.

Ken

it used to be public - no longer :(

[Yobber76]

Originally Posted by Easy Rhino

Exactly (among other potential problems). I absolutely doubt that all resellers do 100% checks for stolen Rolex serial numbers before reselling watches. This certainly invites the unscrupulous dealer to obtain a watch at a low price and mark it up to average resell values.

A number of years ago I had an SA at a Rolex AD that took used watches in trade accidentally tell me that they don't don't open up and verify every watch that they take in. She made that statement to promote buying a new watch instead of used. It convinced me not to use that AD.

[MDR143]

I haven’t done it, but if I bought grey, I would never send my watch to RSC and would use LA Watch Works, Rolliworks, etc.

Too much risk for the negligible upside in service you would get from RSC.

[KatGirl]

Originally Posted by KenV

Hi,

I sent an email to the Munich dealer on Monday night, and no answer after two business days. I included a read receipt for the email, and no receipt received. It is a holiday here in Bavaria tomorrow, so I will wait until Friday and send them another note. On Monday, I guess I will send a registered letter to the store, and then look up a local lawyer.

I will also look to see if I still have the original Chrono24 ad that I printed and took with us to the store in 2019. Maybe I should have recognized a bad sign when the sales lady asked if I had contacted their store via Chrono24 and I send no, we just decided to print the Chrono24 ad and take a drive to Munich. She said they would have had to pay Chrono24 a commission if I had contacted the store via the Chrono24 web.

I will see if I can get the police report from Köln. I would like to see that the serial number on the report matches with my watch. I want to exclude any possible mistakes in the original 2017 Spanish report or a mistake by Rolex. It could be that the error is not with the Munich store, even though that is beginning to look unlikely, but I want to verify as much as I can.

From my point of view, I think the Munich store should have at least responded to my email saying they are sorry for the issues and they will quickly look into the issue and start their own check.

The silence from the store is a bit ominous.

I reread my previous post, and in regards to the other watch I bought, I bought it from a different dealer in Germany, but I did use the Chrono24 website, so the transaction is officially registered with them. I will have that watch checked at my local AD soon. It has a five year warranty that ends this year, so maybe they can see if it needs any service and they can check the Rolex database for that watch. I thought I had better validate that watches lineage now, and not five or ten years from now.

I also wonder if I will be contacted by the local police to see where I acquired the two tone bluesy watch. In theory, the Munich store should have a record as to who sold them the watch.

Not to make this post too long, but … this has been a disappointing experience, and it has soured my wife and I to the Rolex bluesy. My wife bought me my Sub in December 1990 as an engagement gift, and then in the summer of 1991 we moved to Bermuda for a few years for a work contract. She spotted a two tone blue sub at a store there and always wanted to get one for me. She bought this one for me for our 30th anniversary. She bought it a few years early, so I only used it occasionally until our anniversary. If we do get our money back, I doubt we will replace it with another bluesy. She did see a blue sky-dweller recently though :)

Anyways, certainly a long post. I will update this thread as the situation evolves.

Thanks,

Ken

May I just say you have a wonderful wife. I do see a blue Skydweller in your future. It is troubling that the dealer has not responded to your email. Keep sending them, and if you don’t get a response, hire an attorney. How awful that you have to go through this. Keep your chin up! I had a 5 digit Sub date stolen, and was never made whole, so I know the feeling.

Kat


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[KenV]

Originally Posted by KatGirl

May I just say you have a wonderful wife. I do see a blue Skydweller in your future. It is troubling that the dealer has not responded to your email. Keep sending them, and if you don’t get a response, hire an attorney. How awful that you have to go through this. Keep your chin up! I had a 5 digit Sub date stolen, and was never made whole, so I know the feeling.

Kat


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Thanks Kat, she is a great wife :) Thirty-three years next week.

I sent the dealer a second email today as well as contacting Chrono24. Someone working at the Munich dealer responded this afternoon to my email that I sent Monday night. They said the owners of the store were on holidays this week and they will get back to me when they return on Monday. It was a holiday in this area on Thursday, so not unusual for people to add a few days and take the entire week. At least they responded.

Thanks,

Ken

[Apdl]

Originally Posted by KenV

The Rolex company in Cologne has now determined that this watch was reported stolen in Spain in 2017.


Ken

So Sorry to hear this Ken! Mistakes happen, lets hope the seller makes you whole!

[fskywalker]

Originally Posted by KenV

Thanks Kat, she is a great wife :) Thirty-three years next week.

I sent the dealer a second email today as well as contacting Chrono24. Someone working at the Munich dealer responded this afternoon to my email that I sent Monday night. They said the owners of the store were on holidays this week and they will get back to me when they return on Monday. It was a holiday in this area on Thursday, so not unusual for people to add a few days and take the entire week. At least they responded.

Thanks,

Ken

Hope the Seller makes the right thing and reimburse you on the purchase Ken


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[Vanyo]

I’m curious, is it possible to send an official request through Rolex AD’s to check the serial number before providing watch for the service? If the watch has been purchased without papers and the number is compromised what Rolex could confirm, the owner of such watch may just service them with independent watchmakers without a risk of confiscation.

In some countries, there is a concept of “legitimate buyer” which removes any responsibility for buying a stolen item if new owner didn’t know or could not know that the item was stolen at the moment of purchase. After expiration of a certain limitation period, the new buyer gets full and clean title to the item. With Rolex it seems a complete legal mass as the watch was reported stolen in Spain, repurchased in Germany and the actual watch might have been physically located in Switzerland or in the EU country outside of Germany.

The outcomes of the situation with OP are very clear. Either not to buy watch without papers or, if bought, do not send to Rolex for service unless have no solid prove that it’s serial number is clean.

[KatGirl]

Originally Posted by Vanyo

I’m curious, is it possible to send an official request through Rolex AD’s to check the serial number before providing watch for the service? If the watch has been purchased without papers and the number is compromised what Rolex could confirm, the owner of such watch may just service them with independent watchmakers without a risk of confiscation.

In some countries, there is a concept of “legitimate buyer” which removes any responsibility for buying a stolen item if new owner didn’t know or could not know that the item was stolen at the moment of purchase. After expiration of a certain limitation period, the new buyer gets full and clean title to the item. With Rolex it seems a complete legal mass as the watch was reported stolen in Spain, repurchased in Germany and the actual watch might have been physically located in Switzerland or in the EU country outside of Germany.

The outcomes of the situation with OP are very clear. Either not to buy watch without papers or, if bought, do not send to Rolex for service unless have no solid prove that it’s serial number is clean.

How was that helpful to the OP? His watch, that he bought in good faith, from a brick and mortar store, was confiscated by RSC, when sent for service.

Kat


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[Vanyo]

Originally Posted by KatGirl

How was that helpful to the OP? His watch, that he bought in good faith, from a brick and mortar store, was confiscated by RSC, when sent for service.

Kat


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OP knew that the watch is without documents. Before physically hanging it over to the AD, checking if the serial number is clean with Rolex could save him from confiscation of the watch.

I see the sequence in the following way:

1. You have the watch purchased without documents;
2. There is a need for service;
3. You apply to Rolex with a request to check if the number of the watch should be of an any concern (e.g. you are asking about the watch you are intending to acquire);
4. If you get a response that the watch with the specific number is compromised, you go to an independent watchmaker for service;
5. If the watch is clean, you can provide it to AD for service and sleep well.

Nothing could help OP here, but this discussion could help others not have the same problem in future.

NB. Most of my watches (currently all Rolexes) are from AD. I bought only 3 from grey dealers. Two of them were unworn with stickers and one 116510LN preowned with a big polished scratch which I noticed much later. Some time ago I was looking for a pre ceramic white dial Daytona without documents for a juicy price. My thought were, if I bought it, to immediately bring to my AD for the service. After reading this thread, that way of thinking seems to be not right.

[KatGirl]

Originally Posted by Vanyo

OP knew that the watch is without documents. Before physically hanging it over to the AD, checking if the serial number is clean with Rolex could save him from confiscation of the watch.

I see the sequence in the following way:

1. You have the watch purchased without documents;
2. There is a need for service;
3. You apply to Rolex with a request to check if the number of the watch should be of an any concern (e.g. you are asking about the watch you are intending to acquire);
4. If you get a response that the watch with the specific number is compromised, you go to an independent watchmaker for service;
5. If the watch is clean, you can provide it to AD for service and sleep well.

Nothing could help OP here, but this discussion could help others not have the same problem in future.

NB. Most of my watches (currently all Rolexes) are from AD. I bought only 3 from grey dealers. Two of them were unworn with stickers and one 116510LN preowned with a big polished scratch which I noticed much later. Some time ago I was looking for a pre ceramic white dial Daytona without documents for a juicy price. My thought were, if I bought it, to immediately bring to my AD for the service. After reading this thread, that way of thinking seems to be not right.

Rolex will not let individuals check to see if their watch is on their stolen registry!!!

Kat


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[Apdl]

Originally Posted by Vanyo

OP knew that the watch is without documents. Before physically hanging it over to the AD, checking if the serial number is clean with Rolex could save him from confiscation of the watch.

I see the sequence in the following way:

1. You have the watch purchased without documents;
2. There is a need for service;
3. You apply to Rolex with a request to check if the number of the watch should be of an any concern (e.g. you are asking about the watch you are intending to acquire);
4. If you get a response that the watch with the specific number is compromised, you go to an independent watchmaker for service;
5. If the watch is clean, you can provide it to AD for service and sleep well.

Nothing could help OP here, but this discussion could help others not have the same problem in future.

I totally agree, that way, he can find out its stolen and keep it.
Everyone wins?

[andrewjb88]

Rolex should have a global service that you can pay to check before purchasing.

[johnsonsxusfrt]

Originally Posted by andrewjb88

Rolex should have a global service that you can pay to check before purchasing.

Yeah, that service is letting people register their watches online like AP does.

[KenV]

Hi,

I have received a response from Rolex Köln to the email I sent them last week. I am glad that Rolex took the time to reply. It appears I will get an official letter detailing the theft. If I need to hire a lawyer, I can give them these documents. I have not had a response to the email I sent Chrono24 yet, and no response back from the manager of the Munich store. I was told they would be returning this week.

Translation of the email from Rolex. (I removed the name of my local AD since they are just caught in the middle)
-------------------------------------------
We regret to hear of the circumstances that have arisen for you.

In this context, I would first like to point out that Rolex does not release any information about the theft entries to third parties. The online portal you mentioned therefore does not communicate any official data from Rolex.

As you did not hand in the watch in person, we ask for your understanding that we cannot give you any detailed information due to the GDPR. However, we can confirm the information from (my local AD) that an international theft has been reported for this watch and will be picked up by the police this week. We will send the seizure report with a corresponding letter to the (my local AD) and they will certainly contact you regarding the handover of the documents.

We hope that this information can help and remain with best regards from Cologne.
----------------------------------

Ken

[Cambo]

Originally Posted by Apdl

I totally agree, that way, he can find out its stolen and keep it.
Everyone wins?

Exactly my thoughts…if you find out you bought stolen property and still keep it, IMHO you are no better than the thieves.

[madsitalia]

Originally Posted by KenV

Hi,

I have received a response from Rolex Köln to the email I sent them last week. I am glad that Rolex took the time to reply. It appears I will get an official letter detailing the theft. If I need to hire a lawyer, I can give them these documents. I have not had a response to the email I sent Chrono24 yet, and no response back from the manager of the Munich store. I was told they would be returning this week.

Translation of the email from Rolex. (I removed the name of my local AD since they are just caught in the middle)
-------------------------------------------
We regret to hear of the circumstances that have arisen for you.

In this context, I would first like to point out that Rolex does not release any information about the theft entries to third parties. The online portal you mentioned therefore does not communicate any official data from Rolex.

As you did not hand in the watch in person, we ask for your understanding that we cannot give you any detailed information due to the GDPR. However, we can confirm the information from (my local AD) that an international theft has been reported for this watch and will be picked up by the police this week. We will send the seizure report with a corresponding letter to the (my local AD) and they will certainly contact you regarding the handover of the documents.

We hope that this information can help and remain with best regards from Cologne.
----------------------------------

Ken

Any news on this? Fingers crossed for you

[Hkspwrsche]

Originally Posted by KatGirl

If it’s stolen, Rolex will confiscate it and notify both the owner who reported it stolen and the OP. Then the OP will have to seek reimbursement from the seller, as eventuallly the person who reported it stolen will have it returned to him. What I’ve always wondered is if that owner collected an insurance payout, is there another way this plays out, where the OP gets to keep the watch he bought?

Kat


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The owner has likely been paid 100% the insured value. Technically the owner should notify the insurance company, turn it over and they can recover some salvage from the watch. The last thing you want it to be caught trading it or selling it later and be accused of some sort of fraud.

[KenV]

Hi,

The Munich dealer said they will give me a full refund. I received the police seizure report from my local AD last week and that was sent to the Munich dealer. I am hoping to get a refund within a week or so.

I will update once the money has arrived in my account. It is looking good so far.

Ken