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ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX
ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX
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#1 |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: jP
Location: Texas
Watch: GMT-MASTER
Posts: 17,185
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Rolex branded Tudor dial
Here is a Rolex branded, Tudor dialed watch from Hess Fine Auctions. The auction states - The dial on this watch is in great to excellent condition, yet someone has changed the dial to say Tudor Rolex when in fact its an Oyster Tudor made by Rolex.
This does not change the fact that the dial is counterfeit and totally misrepresents the watch. This is not a Rolex, but a Tudor. The dial should have been removed and replaced with the correct dial before the auction. It is not unlike someone listing a counterfeit Submariner on ebay with a caveat that it is a replica. It has been reported to Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-17J-Rose...item5add044b46
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Member of NAWCC since 1990. INSTAGRAM USER NAME: SPRINGERJFP Visit my Instagram page to view some of the finest vintage GMTs anywhere - as well as other vintage classics. |
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#2 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Real Name: Michael
Location: VK2 - AUS
Watch: 5513s
Posts: 7,380
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Jeff is a member here, maybe one of his staff listed the watch???
I think maybe we should let him know. |
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#3 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Real Name: Jeffrey P Hess
Location: florida
Watch: Patek and Ball
Posts: 516
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Hi,
I am thousands of miles from home at a watch event... I received a nice note from a member. My wife does all things ebay, as Springer knows. However, I looked at the listing and find noting wrong with it. It looks as if great care was taken to make sure that a buyer knows what thye are buying. The word "Rolex" is not in the title. The description carefully notes that this is a Tudor, not a Rolex but that it was made by Rolex and that someone long ago changed the dial. There was no attempt to deceive anyone in any way. Good luck! Jeff |
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#4 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Real Name: Jeffrey P Hess
Location: florida
Watch: Patek and Ball
Posts: 516
|
Hi,
I am thousands of miles from home at a watch event... I received a nice note from a member. My wife does all things ebay, as Springer knows. However, I looked at the listing and find noting wrong with it. It looks as if great care was taken to make sure that a buyer knows what thye are buying. The word "Rolex" is not in the title. The description carefully notes that this is a Tudor, not a Rolex but that it was made by Rolex and that someone long ago changed the dial. There was no attempt to deceive anyone in any way. Good luck! Jeff |
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#5 | ||
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Real Name: Michael
Location: VK2 - AUS
Watch: 5513s
Posts: 7,380
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Quote:
Quote:
This dial never came from Rolex or Tudor looking like it does now. As the listing points out the dial has been modified and the Rolex trademark has been illegally replicated on a Tudor dial which makes it therefore counterfeit. The caveat does make it right either. |
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#6 |
2024 ROLEX SUBMARINER 41 Pledge Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: North Florida
Posts: 16,674
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It's too early for pop corn.
I guess Coffee for now! |
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#7 |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: jP
Location: Texas
Watch: GMT-MASTER
Posts: 17,185
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As usual, Hess Fine Auctions, when found with a conflicting, misleading or erroneous ebay auction, expects some special consideration or exemption from the norm. Nobody is accusing you of deception, Mr. Hess, the Rolex dialed Tudor is wearing a counterfeit dial. Nothing in the auction indicates the dial is counterfeit.
This auction was brought to my attention via an email from another member here. A caveat in the listing on a watch containing a counterfeit dial does not change the fact that the dial is fake and misleading. This topic, the Rolex dialed Tudors, has been beat to death here on the forum. I would expect a more professional response from this seller. Norm, start popping the corn!
__________________
Member of NAWCC since 1990. INSTAGRAM USER NAME: SPRINGERJFP Visit my Instagram page to view some of the finest vintage GMTs anywhere - as well as other vintage classics. |
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#8 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: STAN
Location: KY-USA
Watch: Rolex Prez
Posts: 12,583
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...it is presented as something it NEVER was and NEVER will be...
...the mere PRESENCE of the Rolex crown or any registered Rolex Trademarks on the dial present it as something it NEVER was or NEVER will be.
...this is TRADEMARK INFRINGEMENT and violates the Lanham Act......period. ...TUDOR is a BRAND unto itself just as Rolex is a brand unto itself!! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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#9 |
2024 ROLEX SUBMARINER 41 Pledge Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: North Florida
Posts: 16,674
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Stan, great to see you are up and about! Hope you are recuperating well!
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#10 | |
2024 ROLEX DATEJUST41 Pledge Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Real Name: michail
Location: Korinthos, Greece
Watch: IWC 371503 gst.
Posts: 396
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Quote:
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#11 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 741
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Springer, you are right, this issue has been discussed to death here, but I’m sure that as the OP of this one and a prominent participant of the former discussions – there’s nothing wrong with that, right?
However, I think casual labels of ‘counterfeit’ or ‘infringements of the Lanham Act’ are both ill-considered and possibly defamatory to the seller. I have read the Lanham Act and tudorman’s assessment that “this is TRADEMARK INFRINGEMENT and violates the Lanham Act......period”. makes me wonder if we have read the same Act. The last time I looked, ‘counterfeit’ includes the suggestion of an attempt to ‘deceive’. That might be a bit difficult to achieve here. The seller has clearly declared: “The dial on this watch is in great to excellent condition, yet someone has changed the dial to say Tudor Rolex when in fact its an Oyster Tudor made by Rolex.” And later “Dial Condition: Very good to excellent; someone has changed the dial of this watch to say Tudor Rolex when in fact its an Oyster Tudor made by Rolex”. I think you might reference previous cases along these lines, especially this one: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1142365.html While on the surface, Rolex was successful in that suit, it is interesting to note what they were not successful with. Specifically, the court said that the seller should have disclosed in advertising and on the invoice to the buyer that: “This watch contains non-Rolex parts which are not supplied by an official Rolex jeweler.” The district court found that retention of the original Rolex marks on altered “Rolex” watches, in the absence of adequate disclosures that the altered watches contain non-Rolex parts, was deceptive and misleading as to the origin of the non-Rolex parts, and likely to cause confusion to subsequent or downstream purchasers, as well as to persons observing the product. The district court found that the changes Mottale made to the used Rolex watches were not so extensive that Mottale should be completely enjoined from retaining Rolex's trademarks on the used Rolex watches he sells. Also the court noted: “Rolex noted at oral argument that it did not seek, and had not sought in the district court, an injunction preventing individual owners of Rolex watches from altering their watches with non-Rolex parts. Neither the district court's injunction, nor the injunction we direct it to enter, enjoins Mottale (the seller) from altering Rolex watches at the specific request of an individual watch owner. I suggest someone selling an individual watch that has been altered (and declared to have been altered) is different from a mass-produced replica. Ahhh! you say - the discussion here relates to the use of ‘Rolex’ on a ‘Tudor’ watch. True, but that is also contentious, given that Tudor is a Rolex owned and made brand and given that Rolex’s history of itself producing watches AND advertising in the past that were co-branded as well as Tudor watches bearing Rolex branded cases, crown AND bracelet. You say “The dial should have been removed and replaced with the correct dial before the auction”. Come on, would Tudor stock dials from the 50’s. And “It is not unlike someone listing a counterfeit Submariner on ebay with a caveat that it is a replica”… which seems to ignore the fact it is not a replica, but exactly what it is listed as... a Tudor Oyster. ![]() |
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#12 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Real Name: Jeffrey P Hess
Location: florida
Watch: Patek and Ball
Posts: 516
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All,
I started selling vintage on line about 15 years ago. Katrina (my wife) runs the entire show now as I am involved in other watch related activity. She is proud of her on line selling record and enjoys a good reputation and invites anyone on this forum to contact her at Katrina.hess@hessfineart.com to discuss pros and cons of on line selling. She only asks that you not hide behind an avatar name. |
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#13 |
2024 ROLEX DATEJUST41 Pledge Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Real Name: michail
Location: Korinthos, Greece
Watch: IWC 371503 gst.
Posts: 396
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I have place bids in the recent past in your auctions.With all my respect the TUDOR watch has a not original dial.You don't say that clear but undercover which is not honest for me.And just because you mentioned about,there are my details,not hidding under an avatar:
Anargyrou Michail 91a K.Palama str 20100 Korinthos Greece |
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#14 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Real Name: Jeffrey P Hess
Location: florida
Watch: Patek and Ball
Posts: 516
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Please.
It is clear as day. VERY clear. Thanks. |
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#15 | |
2024 ROLEX SUBMARINER 41 Pledge Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: North Florida
Posts: 16,674
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Quote:
Great to know whom to address questions with! |
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#16 |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: jP
Location: Texas
Watch: GMT-MASTER
Posts: 17,185
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Yes, thank you Jeff Hess. As you stated earlier in your other post that I knew your wife did the listings, which I did not know, but I do now. I would hope that you would correct her then. Thank you.
__________________
Member of NAWCC since 1990. INSTAGRAM USER NAME: SPRINGERJFP Visit my Instagram page to view some of the finest vintage GMTs anywhere - as well as other vintage classics. |
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#17 | |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: jP
Location: Texas
Watch: GMT-MASTER
Posts: 17,185
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Quote:
Nice post, but one judge's ruling isn't the law of the land my friend. Actually, the Tudor dial is fake; counterfeit is an unauthorized or fraudulent reproduction of a genuine item. You are incorrect, and I'm not going to debate it. It has been beat to death. The Rolex branded dial is done to enhance the value of the Tudor watch to the unknowing, unwitting buyer.
__________________
Member of NAWCC since 1990. INSTAGRAM USER NAME: SPRINGERJFP Visit my Instagram page to view some of the finest vintage GMTs anywhere - as well as other vintage classics. |
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#18 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Real Name: blaine
Location: memphis
Watch: my next find
Posts: 1,060
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i have to agreeeee
![]() ![]() The Rolex branded dial is done to enhance the value of the Tudor watch to the unknowing, unwitting buyer. member of the nawcc since 1996 i have added something after reading what afnios1 said, hmmmm??? i do see his point, it is not clear. you do state it has been "changed." also in the same line with no break in thought, you say "when in fact it's an oyster tudor by rolex???? <that is true. as you have authored or co-authored a few books. not everyone has the same knowledge level or experience. i just don't understand why you didn't list it as a redial, repop, or just say this dial is incorrect for this watch and never left the factory in the present configuration mr hess, you know as a member of nawcc and a mod?? over there in there forum. was your description "transparent" or "clearly identifying all know or suspected alterations" (used from the nawcc bylaws B1, B1a) YES you said "changed" but you also used in the sentence "when in fact it's an oyster tudor by rolex" not> repop, incorrect or customized. this is the part that i tell you, i am a newbie. and it say's rolex and tudor. and i think?? (hmmm) rolex owns tudor?? the dial is changed. o.k., the seller has disclosed it. o.k. man, he writes books,> it has to be good!!!! i'm going after this hot and heavy. i want it!! i win!!! i go to a regional event to show it off. and the first person i show, calls it a POS?? and i take it to another member and they say the same thing! dam it, and i walk out of a show and never attend another and let my membership lapse (just what we need) those members who called it a POS, remember a few years ago those california rolex tudors that where hitting the shows??? remember?? sure, that's is made up! ^^ but who here can say it couldn't happen?? sir, they way i see it. it's a FINE LINE, but the dial is totally incorrect |
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#19 |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Real Name: jP
Location: Texas
Watch: GMT-MASTER
Posts: 17,185
|
__________________
Member of NAWCC since 1990. INSTAGRAM USER NAME: SPRINGERJFP Visit my Instagram page to view some of the finest vintage GMTs anywhere - as well as other vintage classics. |
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