Fake dial on Sea dweller offered by Hess?

[kooltzar]

We have heard of description problems before on this forum re. watches offered by the ebay seller hessfineauctions. Hess is a reputable Rolex expert and according to his own words in this forum his daughter runs the online business.

In the auction below nothing is said in the general description re. the dial and only if someone is reading very attentively further below it says under dial condition "used maybe replacement". I don't think any normal potential buyer would read this as "the dial may be fake".

Look at the dial and make your own conclusions. All I can say is that I have never seen such a Sea Dweller dial before, but maybe I am wrong here.

If you come to the same conclusion as I do then we face a big problem: the so far legit reputable sellers who are experts would knowingly offer non authentic watches. But again, maybe I am wrong and the seller should have the benefit of the doubt.

The link:

http://www.ebay.ch/itm/1978-Vintage-...ht_4006wt_1344

[Quix]

Interesting. I am also wondering whether or not the bezel description as "bi-directional" is a typographical error?

[springer]

Katrina Hess is the wife of Jeff Hess who has listed this SeaDweller for sale.

Hessfineauctions has had 29 negative feedbacks on ebay the past 12 months!

This dial is 100% counterfeit or possibly a redial which neither is mentioned in the auction. The serial number is 5714HHE which is one that I have never heard of before. Since hessfineauctions has sold thousands of watches in the past, and has a watchmaker at his disposal, so you would think that they would know whether the dial is a replacement - whether genuine of counterfeit. Their description is: Used may be a replacement which is very lame at best.

Is this another deceptive auction or mistake by hessfineauctions? You'll have to judge that for yourself. Their auctions have been the topic of discussion several times here in the past.

[kooltzar]

Reported!

[Welshwatchman]

It's the thing that grates me most with Hess Auctions.

Just tell the complete truth and be done with it.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

It's the thing that grates me most with Hess Auctions.

Just tell the complete truth and be done with it.

Paul, I've been echoing that sentiment for a couple years now. They just don't seem to get it, and every time we discuss something from hessfineauctions, it's a blame game.

[kooltzar]

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

It's the thing that grates me most with Hess Auctions.

Just tell the complete truth and be done with it.

If you sell a watch with fake parts that is not enough. Then you should be reported, banned and prosecuted.

[TimeToGo]

Great catch!

[mrbill2mrbill2]

When I see hessfineauctions I say:

Run Forrest Run!!

[03cobraa]

"Used maybe a replacement" Yeah right! They have sold too many not to know this is not an original dial.

[crowncollection]

he knows it's refinsihed, i hate tricky language

[Chewbacca]

thats the problem with high volume sellers. they play the numbers and word game and price the risk of neg feedback because it doesn't affect their standing in any way! ebay loves these guys because they make them $$$! on the sale, via Paypal and via postage partners even if its a complete raw deal for a buyer. ebay's policies on listings is rubbish and their investigators are neutered policy response tools that wouldn't know a rolex from a timex.

[jeff hess]

Hello all,

I am traveling and was just made aware of this thread this moment in a pm. I looked at the dial on line and for sure it looks repainted or replaced. I note that the person who described it is one of our best and I can see that she disclosed a possible problem with the dial and applaud her for that but also I guess I can see how the language may look (to those who see darkness at every corner) as somehow "cagey". I know the intent was to actually POINT OUT a problem with dial. Thus I will email Katrina and ask her to take it to a watchmaker, take off the dial and inspect it. Those who know us, understand that we do and WILL disclose problems and always show a HUGE number of pics and that we will always do the right thing. (Mr. Bill and Springer may disagree!) :) Cheers! Jeff

[jeff hess]

update: Katrina is up now and has responded. The watch was a consignment from a local jeweler and she will have the watchmakers take it apart this AM. Cheers!

[springer]

Originally Posted by jeff hess

Hello all,

I am traveling and was just made aware of this thread this moment in a pm. I looked at the dial on line and for sure it looks repainted or replaced. I note that the person who described it is one of our best and I can see that she disclosed a possible problem with the dial and applaud her for that but also I guess I can see how the language may look (to those who see darkness at every corner) as somehow "cagey". I know the intent was to actually POINT OUT a problem with dial. Thus I will email Katrina and ask her to take it to a watchmaker, take off the dial and inspect it. Those who know us, understand that we do and WILL disclose problems and always show a HUGE number of pics and that we will always do the right thing. (Mr. Bill and Springer may disagree!) :) Cheers! Jeff

Nobody agrees with you in this thread Mr. Hess, since hessfineauctions has a track record in the Watchout Section. Maybe you need to read it again. Keep your personal attacks to yourself! I'm tired of your personal attacks on me every time I comment on some of your rubbish. I'm sure Mr. Bill and many others feel the same. Clean up your own house and you won't have to worry about being the topic of "junk listings" here on the forum.

[jeff hess]

hi, no offense meant. And no attack meant. My statement that "you may disagree" is indeed, apparently true. '

our track record is terrific. My wife sells thousands of Rolex each year without incident. Occasionally a bad, strap or dial has been redone, replaced or changed and when this happens she generally notes it. And when not noted in the manner in which you wish or when a grievious error has been made (rarely) , she always fixes the "problem".

Wising you the best, Jeff

[mannyv11]

Also if you read the feedback they don't really treat the customers with any respect. It seems to always be the customers fault and never theirs. I would not buy from these guys ever just my 2 cents

[Katrina Hess G.G.]

I have shown the watch to one of our Rolex trained watchmakers and indeed it is a genuine dial that has been repainted. We noted in the auction that the dial was likely not correct or may be a replacement. We disclose.

As to the serial number, we never reveal EXACT serial number as suggested by federal and local law enforcement we have worked with in the past.

Based on long term counterfeiting of Rolex products we blind the last 3 digits of the serial number with a code to assist the law enforcement community in preventing counterfeiting while being able to positively identify the item. This is at the direction of our legal council and the federal agents who have utilized our services in the past.

This has assited in eliminating counterfeiting of known sold items and assists in the safety of both the online community and the collecting communities as no counterfeiters get what is effectively a blueprint of what to counterfeit. Thanks and sorry that our wording of the dial refinish offended some.

I am frankly shocked that someone without inspection of the actual dial would make a reckless and incorrect assertion of 100% counterfeit or fake in a open forum.
Katrina Hess

[tudorman8276]

Originally Posted by Katrina Hess G.G.

I have shown the watch to one of our Rolex trained watchmakers and indeed it is a genuine dial that has been repainted. We noted in the auction that the dial was likely not correct or may be a replacement. We disclose.

As to the serial number, we never reveal EXACT serial number as suggested by federal and local law enforcement we have worked with in the past.

Based on long term counterfeiting of Rolex products we blind the last 3 digits of the serial number with a code to assist the law enforcement community in preventing counterfeiting while being able to positively identify the item. This is at the direction of our legal council and the federal agents who have utilized our services in the past.

This has assited in eliminating counterfeiting of known sold items and assists in the safety of both the online community and the collecting communities as no counterfeiters get what is effectively a blueprint of what to counterfeit. Thanks and sorry that our wording of the dial refinish offended some.

I am frankly shocked that someone without inspection of the actual dial would make a reckless and incorrect assertion of 100% counterfeit or fake in a open forum.
Katrina Hess

...thank you verifying the dial to be genuine.

...HOWEVER, just as with THIS watch, there have been other listings that were also earmarked as having a "problem" that took some of the forum members to bring pressure through eBay for "word manipulation" to either cause you to change the wording to more accurately describe the fault or for you all to remove the listing completely.

...this was evident in a not too long ago Tudor watch that you all had listed that had the Rolex crown on the dial.

...for someone with soooooooooooo much experience/knowledge, having sold THOUSANDS of watches and co-authored a book about Rolex (which I own and refer to often), I would think with reason that this simply should not happen.

...IF your team would simply have done THEN what you have finally done now, this thread would NOT EXIST.

...we do appreciate your interaction here on the forums.

[jeff hess]

We noted CLEARLY on that tudor that the dial was "repainted incorrectly with the words Rolex Tudor on it" There was no attemot to deceive whatsoever on that tudor nor on the seadweller above.

Best to all, Jeff

and of course many rolex tudors exist correctly with both words tudor AND rolex on the dial

[tudorman8276]

Originally Posted by jeff hess

We noted CLEARLY on that tudor that the dial was "repainted incorrectly with the words Rolex Tudor on it" There was no attemot to deceive whatsoever on that tudor nor on the seadweller above.

Best to all, Jeff

and of course many rolex tudors exist correctly with both words tudor AND rolex on the dial

...while that was very true that you had a disclaimer about the dial, the fact remains that it is ILLEGAL to sell any item such as the Tudor watch you had listed with the Rolex crown on it.

...if you are not aware of it, this is well documented in the USC, and the Lanham Act covers the improper use of trademarks in detail.

...hope this helps...

[powerfunk]

"used" != refinished

"We said there might be something up with the dial" isn't a good excuse. I might buy a watch with a replacement dial or "used" original dial. I typically try to avoid refinished dials, though, and now I will also avoid Hess. Thanks to the OP for sharing.

[Katrina Hess G.G.]

As to the Rolex and Tudor we have images in house of a Rolex Tudor watch that came to us with Box and papers from the original owner sold through a Canadian Authorized Rolex dealer that had both the words Rolex and Tudor on it from the factory.

This was in fact the 2nd watch watch we have came factory direct in this manner.

While it may not be the practice of Rolex now it has been in the past at least in Canadian Rolex's.

We of course provided the images and information complete with serial numbers and production information to the individuals at eBay who have been ed to believe that these watches have never existed.

[Welshwatchman]

Originally Posted by Katrina Hess G.G.

As to the Rolex and Tudor we have images in house of a Rolex Tudor watch that came to us with Box and papers from the original owner sold through a Canadian Authorized Rolex dealer that had both the words Rolex and Tudor on it from the factory.

This was in fact the 2nd watch watch we have came factory direct in this manner.

While it may not be the practice of Rolex now it has been in the past at least in Canadian Rolex's.

We of course provided the images and information complete with serial numbers and production information to the individuals at eBay who have been ed to believe that these watches have never existed.

There are tens of thousands of Tudors out there with the words Rolex and Tudor on them.

To be more specific the word Tudor appears on the dial and Rolex on the caseback.

As far as Tudor and Rolex on the dial is concerned, that's another matter completely.

I'll say it again.

Be SPECIFIC.

Failure to repeatedly do so will give you a terrible reputation.

If it's an original dial refinished, state it.

If it's a non original dial, state it.

Replacement is a weasel word.

[tudorman8276]

Originally Posted by Katrina Hess G.G.

As to the Rolex and Tudor we have images in house of a Rolex Tudor watch that came to us with Box and papers from the original owner sold through a Canadian Authorized Rolex dealer that had both the words Rolex and Tudor on it from the factory.

This was in fact the 2nd watch watch we have came factory direct in this manner.

While it may not be the practice of Rolex now it has been in the past at least in Canadian Rolex's.

We of course provided the images and information complete with serial numbers and production information to the individuals at eBay who have been ed to believe that these watches have never existed.

...maybe this will help refresh your memory and provide something for everyone to wrap their arms around about the "Rolex Oyster Tudor" (photo for instructional purposes only):

[springer]

Originally Posted by Katrina Hess G.G.

As to the Rolex and Tudor we have images in house of a Rolex Tudor watch that came to us with Box and papers from the original owner sold through a Canadian Authorized Rolex dealer that had both the words Rolex and Tudor on it from the factory.

This was in fact the 2nd watch watch we have came factory direct in this manner.

While it may not be the practice of Rolex now it has been in the past at least in Canadian Rolex's.

We of course provided the images and information complete with serial numbers and production information to the individuals at eBay who have been ed to believe that these watches have never existed.

Let's not mince words Katrina. We are talking about your Tudor redialed as a Rolex. It was counterfeit - what happened in Canada has nothing to do with the Tudor discussed months ago from one of your listings.

Every time an impropriety concerning a Rolex listed by hessfineauctions is discussed here, it seems obviously clear that your listing was misrepresented by the denials or justifications that you and Jeff Hess post in response. They are comical at best and nobody that I know takes any of your responses seriously. It quite clearly seems that the watches are misrepresented so they will sell on ebay.

[jeff hess]

Mr. (Springer)

I will not engage you on what is clearly "your" turf. Only to say that nothing is ever misrepresented by Katrina and her team.

If she or her team were trying to misrepresent anything why would they take so many high res pics and why would they mention the dial replacemnt or problem or whatever?

And as to the tudor, it was clearly noted (Ad Tudorman said) as a wrongly refinisehd dial. No intention to deceive whatsoever.

And for the record, I have seen scores if not hundreds of genuine Rolex Tudor dials with both Rolex and Tudor on them.

I am done with the thread and thanks to all who notified us of this via pm and email.

Katrina may wish to continue with this issue of "semantics" but I am done with it.

All the best, Jeff

[springer]

For those that do not frequent the forum or Watchout section often, if you search for the word "Tudor" in the Watchout Section, there are over 20 pages of threads dealing with fake, altered or counterfeit Tudors. Many here practice due diligence when reporting fake, altered or counterfeit Tudor watches - not just from power sellers on ebay but from other sellers on the internet. I can assure you, that if you review the threads, that no one is shielded from selling Tudors branded as a Rolex watch model.

[Knappo 1307]

Has anyone tried to report this ? I tried but would not let me...

[mrbill2mrbill2]

Originally Posted by springer

Nobody agrees with you in this thread Mr. Hess, since hessfineauctions has a track record in the Watchout Section. Maybe you need to read it again. Keep your personal attacks to yourself! I'm tired of your personal attacks on me every time I comment on some of your rubbish. I'm sure Mr. Bill and many others feel the same. Clean up your own house and you won't have to worry about being the topic of "junk listings" here on the forum.

Springer

I concur 100%.

If Jeff and Katrina Hess would put as much effort in validating Hess for sale posts as they do responding here there would not be a recurring questioning of Hess auctions.

My suggestion to Hess is clean up your act and you will not hear from TRF.