Real Kermit 16610LV?

[MD.]

Hi everyone,

I would like to know if this is a fake.

No papers. It is supposedly a Y serial. The watch hasn’t been worn much and just kept in a safe for investment purposes according to him hence the condition. As seen in the pictures some factory stickers still on according to him.

It hasn’t been opened or serviced since 2003, so I asked the seller to service the movements at a vintage watchmaker and take pics for me (attached below) before I picked it up.

I guess the only way to be 100% sure is to send it to Rolex for a service but I’d like to hear your opinion as well, as I’d like to await a bit before doing that.

Any input appreciated.







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[interestedwatcher]

I don't know if you can take a 16610, and put the LV bezel on to make a franken Kermit, but anyway - the movement pictured is genuine, and the pictures appear to show an unworn / little wear submariner of the correct vintage.

[MD.]

Originally Posted by interestedwatcher

I don't know if you can take a 16610, and put the LV bezel on to make a franken Kermit, but anyway - the movement pictured is genuine, and the pictures appear to show an unworn / little wear submariner of the correct vintage.

The serial between the lugs at 6 o’clock does show Y96..... if that helps.


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[Swiss Mad!]

Originally Posted by interestedwatcher

I don't know if you can take a 16610, and put the LV bezel on to make a franken Kermit, but anyway - the movement pictured is genuine, and the pictures appear to show an unworn / little wear submariner of the correct vintage.

I believe the bezel is exactly the same just green not black between the anniversary Sub & a standard Sub.

The lume plots on the dial would be the giveaway between the LV & LN but as this appears to have the maxi dial plots, it would appear legit.

However, with no papers or other provenance it’s impossible to say as the dials would be interchangeable also between the two, so if someone really wanted to, it wouldn’t be that difficult to ‘create’ an anniversary LV from a basic LN


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[freefly]

Looks OK from here.

[freefly]

Originally Posted by Swiss Mad!

I believe the bezel is exactly the same just green not black between the anniversary Sub & a standard Sub.

Correct, they are 100% interchangeable.

Originally Posted by Swiss Mad!

However, with no papers or other provenance it’s impossible to say as the dials would be interchangeable also between the two, so if someone really wanted to, it wouldn’t be that difficult to ‘create’ an anniversary LV from a basic LN

True. Though sourcing an original LV dial, bezel insert, and hands would likely be quite costly, and take a while to track down.

That said, it's interesting that the watch still has some of the factory stickers intact and appears to come with boxes/tags...but no papers. If the green hang tag pictured indicates "16610LV" with the matching SN, then that's a point of reasruance. Still, given the current value of these early LV Subs, I'd probably want to confirm (via RSC) that the watch did in fact start life as an LV, absent the original papers. YMMV.

[MD.]

Originally Posted by freefly

Correct, they are 100% interchangeable.

True. Though sourcing an original LV dial, bezel insert, and hands would likely be quite costly, and take a while to track down.

That said, it's interesting that the watch still has some of the factory stickers intact and appears to come with boxes/tags...but no papers. If the green hang tag pictured indicates "16610LV" with the matching SN, then that's a point of reasruance. Still, given the current value of these early LV Subs, I'd probably want to confirm (via RSC) that the watch did in fact start life as an LV, absent the original papers. YMMV.

Thanks for your input.

The tags do not have the SN on them. According to seller this is a common thing with some AD’s where they take the SN off to keep for their records.


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[watchnut100]

Looks fine

[GLADIATOR]

genuine

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by freefly

That said, it's interesting that the watch still has some of the factory stickers intact and appears to come with boxes/tags...but no papers. If the green hang tag pictured indicates "16610LV" with the matching SN, then that's a point of reasruance. Still, given the current value of these early LV Subs, I'd probably want to confirm (via RSC) that the watch did in fact start life as an LV, absent the original papers. YMMV.

In addition to maxi dial, Lugs on LV are narrower than on standard 14060 submariner, as in OPs watch
Hence I think all original and genuine
A

[freefly]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

In addition to maxi dial, Lugs on LV are narrower

No.

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by freefly

No.

Interesting, I was sure they were
Thanks
A

[Nikrnic]

I wouldn't put my money out there and pay that premium without papers. At that point the moneys relevant to go for a full set.

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[freefly]

Originally Posted by MD.

Thanks for your input.

The tags do not have the SN on them. According to seller this is a common thing with some AD’s where they take the SN off to keep for their records.

AD's are/were known to have differing policies regarding stickers and tags. Some would indeed keep the green tags, but I can't remember seeing or hearing of one that actually cut the SN portion of the green tag sticker off.
Also, most of the ones that kept the tags would also insist that all case stickers be removed prior to sale (and this watch has them intact).

Again, it looks fine and the SN removal on the sticker could be a non-issue. But (for me) it's just another reason to want to confirm the watch's origin prior to purchase, especially if you are paying an "early LV" premium.

[freefly]

Originally Posted by Nikrnic

I wouldn't put my money out there and pay that premium without papers. At that point the moneys relevant to go for a full set.

Agreed. If the seller's asking price is similar to those in the same condition with papers intact, then it's a bit of a non-starter.

This particular watch looks to be in excellent condition though. So, I might be inclined to do a bit of leg work to confirm...if the price is right. YMMV.

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by Nikrnic

I wouldn't put my money out there and pay that premium without papers. At that point the moneys relevant to go for a full set.

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This is totally right. I would never touch a Kermit without papers


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[botsy]

A perfect 2003 LV. Good find if the price was right.


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[Johny]

RSC confirmation would be essential. It's the only way to know for sure.

[MD.]

Originally Posted by freefly

Agreed. If the seller's asking price is similar to those in the same condition with papers intact, then it's a bit of a non-starter.

This particular watch looks to be in excellent condition though. So, I might be inclined to do a bit of leg work to confirm...if the price is right. YMMV.

I have now bought it for around $22k.
The reason I went for it (despite its missing original papers) is the excellent condition it was in. Really I couldn’t find a single scratch on it, and it being a Y serial. Re-saleability in a few years with those missing documents might be an issue perhaps

I never doubted the seller as he has quite a large vintage collection so seemed to be in the known. I will send it in to RSC in a few years to be 100% though, as it’s just been independently serviced and seems to be keeping time well.


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[MD.]

Originally Posted by Nikrnic

I wouldn't put my money out there and pay that premium without papers. At that point the moneys relevant to go for a full set.

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I have now bought it for around $22k.
The reason I went for it (despite its missing original papers) is the excellent condition it was in. Really I couldn’t find a single scratch on it, and it being a Y serial. Re-saleability in a few years with those missing documents might be an issue perhaps

I never doubted the seller as he has quite a large vintage collection so seemed to be in the known. I will send it in to RSC in a few years to be 100% though, as it’s just been independently serviced and seems to be keeping time well.


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[MD.]

Originally Posted by botsy

A perfect 2003 LV. Good find if the price was right.


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I have now bought it for around $22k.
The reason I went for it (despite its missing original papers) is the excellent condition it was in. Really I couldn’t find a single scratch on it, and it had never been polished before and it being a Y serial. Re-saleability in a few years with those missing documents might be an issue perhaps

I never doubted the seller as he has quite a large vintage collection so seemed to be in the known. I will send it in to RSC in a few years to be 100% though, as it’s just been independently serviced and seems to be keeping time well.


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[MD.]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

This is totally right. I would never touch a Kermit without papers


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I have now bought it for around $22k.
The reason I went for it (despite its missing original papers) is the excellent condition it was in. Really I couldn’t find a single scratch on it, and it being a Y serial, it’s also never been polished before. Re-saleability in a few years with those missing documents might be an issue perhaps

I never doubted the seller as he has quite a large vintage collection so seemed to be in the known. I will send it in to RSC in a few years to be 100% though, as it’s just been independently serviced and seems to be keeping time well.


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[Nikrnic]

Congrats MD.. No doubt it does look like a real Beautiful piece...Enjoy!!..

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[Al1969]

Originally Posted by MD.

I have now bought it for around $22k.
The reason I went for it (despite its missing original papers) is the excellent condition it was in. Really I couldn’t find a single scratch on it, and it being a Y serial, it’s also never been polished before. Re-saleability in a few years with those missing documents might be an issue perhaps

I never doubted the seller as he has quite a large vintage collection so seemed to be in the known. I will send it in to RSC in a few years to be 100% though, as it’s just been independently serviced and seems to be keeping time well.


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Congrats MD Why not send it to RSC for a service estimate sooner to eliminate all doubt?

[freefly]

Originally Posted by Al1969

Why not send it to RSC for a service estimate sooner to eliminate all doubt?

That would be my recommendation as well. Not only to confirm that it indeed started life as an LV, but to also confirm that the recent service was up to snuff, and did't include any non-rolex parts. Again, YMMV.

OP: Congrats anyway though...looks to be an excellent example!

[MD.]

Originally Posted by freefly

That would be my recommendation as well. Not only to confirm that it indeed started life as an LV, but to also confirm that the recent service was up to snuff, and did't include any non-rolex parts. Again, YMMV.

OP: Congrats anyway though...looks to be an excellent example!

Thanks everyone. Really appreciate the advice you’ve given.

I have never sent a watch to RSC before. How would you suggest I do it with this one?

Just ask for an estimate at first? Tell them to just service movement and not replace any parts at all and not to polish it?
Anything else to ask for specifically?

Also how much would it cost approximately?



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[MD.]

Originally Posted by freefly

That would be my recommendation as well. Not only to confirm that it indeed started life as an LV, but to also confirm that the recent service was up to snuff, and did't include any non-rolex parts. Again, YMMV.

OP: Congrats anyway though...looks to be an excellent example!

Originally Posted by Al1969

Congrats MD Why not send it to RSC for a service estimate sooner to eliminate all doubt?

Originally Posted by Nikrnic

Congrats MD.. No doubt it does look like a real Beautiful piece...Enjoy!!..

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Thanks everyone. Really appreciate the advice you’ve given.

I have never sent a watch to RSC before. How would you suggest I do it with this one?

Just ask for an estimate at first? Tell them to just service movement and not replace any parts at all and not to polish it?
Anything else to ask for specifically?

Also how much would it cost approximately?


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[Andad]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

In addition to maxi dial, Lugs on LV are narrower than on standard 14060 submariner, as in OPs watch
Hence I think all original and genuine
A

Not sure why you referenced a 14060 Adam?

16610 and 16610LV cases are the same on my "M"'s.

[Nikrnic]

Call Dallas RSC. They will send an insured shipping package to you. A basic service is now $800. You can request no polish. If any parts are not correct on it they will let you know. I hope I'm not missing any info and am correct as I do not have first hand experience with RSC.

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[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by Nikrnic

Call Dallas RSC. They will send an insured shipping package to you. A basic service is now $800. You can request no polish. If any parts are not correct on it they will let you know. I hope I'm not missing any info and am correct as I do not have first hand experience with RSC.

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He's in the UK