Why no gold crown patina?

[miamiclay]

I’ve noticed that even on heavily patinated gold references, usually the crown is bright. Below are just two examples, a recent/current listing from Adam at Menta, and the fairly famous “Dark Star.” (The former is listed as NOS, the latter was reportedly stored for many years.) It seems unlikely that these crowns have been replaced, or touched/wound often enough to wear off patina, though I guess either is possible.

Does Rolex use a different alloy for the crowns than the cases?
Is there another explanation?
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[Lesnerelli23]

I just got a ‘58 OP. Bezel is a bit discolored while the crown looks brand new…. I was told it’s all original, didn’t believe it at first but now maybe I do!

I have no guesses for the reason though :/

[Dan S]

Are these crowns gold, or gold-capped? Could be a higher gold content than those particular cases.

[Hub6152]

Possibly because the watches are wound occasionally and time setting is performed that means any patina is simply wiped off by the skin

[Hub6152]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Are these crowns gold, or gold-capped? Could be a higher gold content than those particular cases.

Absolutely not gold capped. But maybe a differing alloy content to increase wear resistance from winding.

[motoikkyu]

Some gold jewelry forms patina on the surfaces that are not in contact with skin. I vote for the winding crown being a part that gets touched a lot and "skin polished" and don't consider it suspicious. Having said that, the gold crown on my 6075 is original and is a slightly different color than the case, which has no patina. Not true of my 1013, also no patina. Very pronounced on my 18k 31mm bubblebacks, seems to be a completely different alloy BUT no way of knowing if those crowns were changed out on the way to my hands.

[goldfixer21]

Originally Posted by Hub6152

Absolutely not gold capped. But maybe a differing alloy content to increase wear resistance from winding.

They are gold capped. It's a gold shell over probably stainless steel

[Hub6152]

Originally Posted by goldfixer21

They are gold capped. It's a gold shell over probably stainless steel

Gold cap in the context of watches usually means gold plated which they are not. Gold capped as in a shell over is correct as the internal structure is steel because gold threads would not be strong enough to withstand repeated screwing and unscrewing.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Hub6152

Gold cap in the context of watches usually means gold plated ...

No. I would have to say that this absolutely does not conform to my experience with watches, and I don't think that people who are familiar with watches use the word "capped" to refer to "plated". Definitely not. Watch collectors are quite familiar with gold-capped cases, and know that they are completely different than gold-plated or gold-filled. They are manufactured in a totally different way, the gold layer is dramatically thicker (by an order of magnitude or more), the base metal is completely different, etc. Not even close to the same thing. I think you can assume that we all know what gold-capped means.

[Hub6152]

Originally Posted by Dan S

No. I would have to say that this absolutely does not conform to my experience with watches, where gold-capped cases are completely different than gold-plated or gold-filled. They are made in a totally different way, the gold layer is dramatically different in thickness, the base metal is completely different, repairs are enormously different, etc. Not even close to the same thing.

Actually on reflection I’d have to agree. To clarify on my part I meant that the crown has a layer of gold on it that’s substantially thicker than a simple electro deposition type of gold plating that you’d find on cheap jewellery, which is only a few microns in thickness. It still might be deposited onto the steel core by electro plating however rather than by a burnishing technique.

[AJMarcus]

The crown would patina just like the entire watch. If it’s not that’s a red flag to me. Probably because the crown has been replaced. Hopefully, not an aftermarket replacement or newer Rolex model which are quite common in very old vintage pieces. In a routine service Rolex will almost always replace the crown with the gaskets in my experience .

[AJMarcus]

Originally Posted by goldfixer21

They are gold capped. It's a gold shell over probably stainless steel

If it’s Rolex it’s all gold. Unless you are referring to some very vintage bubble back pieces that were sometimes gold plated.

[AJMarcus]

Originally Posted by Hub6152

Possibly because the watches are wound occasionally and time setting is performed that means any patina is simply wiped off by the skin

Actually handling the watch would create more patina. The sweat and oils from hand winding and setting would do that. It would not preserve it.

[Hub6152]

Originally Posted by AJMarcus

Actually handling the watch would create more patina. The sweat and oils from hand winding and setting would do that. It would not preserve it.

Not necessarily - the oils from the hands could actually provide an oxygen barrier that prevents oxidation.

[goldfixer21]

Originally Posted by AJMarcus

If it’s Rolex it’s all gold. Unless you are referring to some very vintage bubble back pieces that were sometimes gold plated.

They are not solid gold.

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by AJMarcus

The crown would patina just like the entire watch. If it’s not that’s a red flag to me. Probably because the crown has been replaced. Hopefully, not an aftermarket replacement or newer Rolex model which are quite common in very old vintage pieces. In a routine service Rolex will almost always replace the crown with the gaskets in my experience .

So people say it's cold capped but you say it's either replaced or a red flag when it isn't or shouldn't be a red flag?!

[goldfixer21]

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

So people say it's cold capped but you say it's either replaced or a red flag when it isn't or shouldn't be a red flag?!

They are 100% gold capped. It’s not plated, it’s a shell of solid gold over a base metal.

[goldfixer21]

Originally Posted by AJMarcus

If it’s Rolex it’s all gold. Unless you are referring to some very vintage bubble back pieces that were sometimes gold plated.

Here’s some reference material about it
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=108625

[AJMarcus]

Originally Posted by goldfixer21

Here’s some reference material about it
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=108625

Some 1950s models were indeed gold plated, as defined by goldsmiths. But with Rolex, for the most part, the crown Is what is called mono block 18 K or 14 K solid gold. It is not gold plated in the classic sense. Not going to have a semantics argument. Nothing commercially manufactured is 100% pure gold but that’s not what I said. Let’s agree to disagree.

[AJMarcus]

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

So people say it's cold capped but you say it's either replaced or a red flag when it isn't or shouldn't be a red flag?!

I said that a non patina crown that did not match the patina rest of the watch would be a red flag in that it may not be original to the watch. It should patina similarly to the rest of the steel or precious metal on the watch. If it does not then, in my opinion, it’s a flag to question its originality and/ or authenticity. Many vintage pieces have had their hands and crowns replaced over time. That’s my point. That’s my educated guess of course because I have not examined the piece.

[AJMarcus]

[QUOTE=Hub6152;11684342]Not necessarily - the oils from the hands could actually provide an oxygen barrier that prevents oxidation.

It’s quite the opposite actually.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by AJMarcus

It’s not gold plated or gold filled. It’s mono block 18 K or 14 K gold. Not going to have a semantics argument. Nothing commercially manufactured is 100% pure gold.

Did you actually look at the thread that was linked? It explicitly shows photos of a gold shell over underlying stainless. Not plated or filled ... a gold shell, like every gold capped case ever made. This is what everyone has been trying to explain to you. And yet you continue to say that it is solid 18k/14k gold alloy, or at least that's what I assume "mono block" is supposed to mean. Are you trying to gaslight us?

Hopefully the rest of the forum gets it.

[AJMarcus]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Did you actually look at the thread that was linked? It explicitly shows photos of a gold shell over underlying stainless. Not plated or filled ... a gold shell, like every gold capped case ever made. This is what we have been trying to explain to you.

And yet you continue to say that it is solid 18k/14k gold, or at least that's what I assume "mono block" is supposed to mean. Are you trying to gaslight us?

Hopefully the rest of the forum gets it.

Monobloc is the Rolex term for how they manufacture their oyster cases and crowns. Surprised you didn’t know that. For gold crowns it’s a solid gold crown over a steel part. Otherwise the crown mechanism would be too soft to work effectively. However, the gold crown is not gold plated. Gold plating is an entirely different process. A solid gold part, in this case a crown, over a steel part is not gold plating.

It’s important to understand the Rolex process here. There have been plenty of threads that explain this much better than me.

Not that it matters, but I just confirmed this with my Rolex watchmaker who has been in the business for over thirty years.

Not here to have an argument.

[Hub6152]

[QUOTE=AJMarcus;11685340]

Originally Posted by Hub6152

Not necessarily - the oils from the hands could actually provide an oxygen barrier that prevents oxidation.

It’s quite the opposite actually.

Not sure if you edited your reply as the email notice says

“Sorry but I disagree. If that theory were true than bronze would not tarnish over time. All metals break down over time due to the environment and handling”

The one thing missing is that gold is a noble metal unlike bronze and does not break down over time. Another possibility is that the alloy constituents differ from the case to the crown so that the amount of non noble metal is more in the case material than the crown.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by AJMarcus

For gold crowns it’s a solid gold crown over a steel part. Otherwise the crown mechanism would be too soft to work effectively. However, the gold crown is not gold plated. Gold plating is an entirely different process. A solid gold part, in this case a crown, over a steel part is not gold plating.

Thank you for finally admitting that the crowns are gold-capped and not solid gold. Nobody ever said they were gold-plated, that was your Straw Man.

[AJMarcus]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Thank you for finally admitting that the crowns are gold-capped and not solid gold. Nobody ever said they were gold-plated, that was your straw man.

Perhaps you did not say they were gold plated but others did in this thread. Have you not read this entire thread? That’s who I was responding to and then you challenged me unfairly. You stepped in and misconstrued what I said. Or perhaps failed to grasp my meaning. In any case, I’ve admitted to nothing I did not already know. Too much splitting of hairs, and posturing by a few takes away from the enjoyment of our hobby

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by AJMarcus

I admitted to no such thing. I think you misunderstood what I said. But frankly this topic really isn’t all that important.

I think you don't understand what gold-capped means. And I agree it's not important since everyone but you appears to understand.

Originally Posted by AJMarcus

Perhaps you did not say they were gold capped but others did in this thread. Have you not read this entire thread? That’s who I was responding to you. You unfairly stepped in and misconstrued what said.But frankly this topic really isn’t all that important.

What in the world are you talking about. I absolutely said that the crowns are gold-capped, because they are. Just as you said, gold over stainless, which is the definition of gold-capped. I'm starting to feel like I'm having a conversation with someone who is either drunk or incapable of rational thought, so I'm not sure there's any point in continuing.

[AJMarcus]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I think you don't understand what gold-capped means. And I agree it's not important since everyone but you appears to understand.



What in the world are you talking about. I absolutely said that the crowns are gold-capped, because they are. Just as you said, gold over stainless, which is the definition of gold-capped. I'm starting to feel like I'm having a conversation with someone who is either drunk or incapable of rational thought, so I'm not sure there's any point in continuing.

I won’t stoop to your level and insult you in my reply. Cyber bullying is not my thing. Besides, It’s always best to take the higher ground especially when dealing with such inconsequential and trivial matters. Have a splendid evening Dan.

Now I think I’ll order myself another round at the bar.

[AJMarcus]

OP, Not sure if any of that was helpful. Entertaining perhaps.