Genuine or fake

[B E Austin]

OK, I need to know if I was cheated when I bought this '85 16013. The only problem I see is the "Orig. Rolex Design" engraving is missing. Here are a load of pics when I bought this. Tell me if any of you can spot signs that I missed. Remenber, this is an '85-86 model without ORIG ROLEX DESIGN engraved on the side.

[Dan S]

I seriously doubt that it's fake. Maybe the engraving is just worn off so you can't see it. Can you show photos between both lugs so we can double-check the serial/year and see the ref number side?

[B E Austin]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I seriously doubt that it's fake. Maybe the engraving is just worn off so you can't see it. Can you show photos between both lugs so we can double-check the serial/year and see the ref number side?

Yes, but I'll have to do it when I get home from work tomorrow afternoon. I'm not an expert getting the bracelet off and on and need to take care not to scratch the recently polished steel.

[B E Austin]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I seriously doubt that it's fake. Maybe the engraving is just worn off so you can't see it. Can you show photos between both lugs so we can double-check the serial/year and see the ref number side?

OK, I did the best I could and it wasn't easy. See if these help.

[TuRo]

Cappuccino dial is rare and lovely, I don't know enough about them to state much more but just a smidge of tritium burn suggest all orig.

Now the case - Case back is engraved 85, but the watch could be two or 3 years earlier perhaps as bi-colour DJ the slowest sellers !?

The chronology (circa) :

*Up to 80 ~ REGISTERED DESIGN
*Then ~ 2 YEARS OF NOTHING
*Then 1982 onwards ~ ORIG. ROLEX DESIGN

Any chance it could be 81/82?

What's the serial number please?

[B E Austin]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Cappuccino dial is rare and lovely, I don't know enough about them to state much more but just a smidge of tritium burn suggest all orig.

Now the case - Case back is engraved 85, but the watch could be two or 3 years earlier perhaps as bi-colour DJ the slowest sellers !?

The chronology (circa) :

*Up to 80 ~ REGISTERED DESIGN
*Then ~ 2 YEARS OF NOTHING
*Then 1982 onwards ~ ORIG. ROLEX DESIGN

Any chance it could be 81/82?

What's the serial number please?

Actually, it WAS engraved '86 as it was removed when I had it serviced. The serial # states 85-86, but I'll do my best to post pics of the engravings this afternoon. However, for the record the problem seems to arise because of the SN 8877051. But again, I'll try for pics later when I get home.

[miamiclay]

Originally Posted by TuRo

just a smidge of tritium burn suggest all orig

This was my thought also, and I would not expect to see an original dial in an otherwise fake watch. Could still be a Franken ofc, but likely you’re ok.

[XavierM]

ORIG ROLEX DESIGN (without a dot after the ORIG ) seems to be the engraving to expect above the reference number.
As said above, could be the leather band rubbing against the case for too long.
Sharp pictures needed :)

[Dan S]

That's definitely unusual.

[B E Austin]

Originally Posted by Dan S

That's definitely unusual.

But where does that leave it? I remember a few years ago searching the Forums and internet in general for an answer. I actually came across a piece that said Rolex randomly did this for a few years after that transition. As I recall, it actually included this model year. Yesterday, I spent a few hours scouring the net for this same info and all I got was a headache for my trouble.

[Phwtch1]

Originally Posted by B E Austin

But where does that leave it? I remember a few years ago searching the Forums and internet in general for an answer. I actually came across a piece that said Rolex randomly did this for a few years after that transition. As I recall, it actually included this model year. Yesterday, I spent a few hours scouring the net for this same info and all I got was a headache for my trouble.

I'm so sorry for the headache buddy. Often times the internet seems empty when we need a certain information. I can't be firm in my conclusion but there's something off about the watch that makes it seem not it.

[TuRo]

Thanks.

My main observation is that there appears to be two different fonts.

You can see this by comparing the 1's.

North lug has no foot on it and downward flick on top (circa type A*) and south lug has a foot on it with near horiz flick (circa type B*).

What do the font experts think?

* https://perezcope.com/2018/07/05/the...er-engravings/

[Arnozerosix]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Thanks.

My main observation is that there appears to be two different fonts.

You can see this by comparing the 1's.

North lug has no foot on it and downward flick on top (circa type A*) and south lug has a foot on it with near horiz flick (circa type B*).

What do the font experts think?

* https://perezcope.com/2018/07/05/the...er-engravings/

if i am not wrong Perku showed something similar (6 VS 12 o'clock different font type) on his DRSD
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...ighlight=perku

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by Arnozerosix

if i am not wrong Perku showed something similar (6 VS 12 o'clock different font type) on his DRSD
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...ighlight=perku

Yes I recall. Some great content !

Perhaps font guro's Gerhard, Jose or Jed are passing this way again....

[B E Austin]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Thanks.

My main observation is that there appears to be two different fonts.

You can see this by comparing the 1's.

North lug has no foot on it and downward flick on top (circa type A*) and south lug has a foot on it with near horiz flick (circa type B*).

What do the font experts think?

* https://perezcope.com/2018/07/05/the...er-engravings/

Lug shape could be distorted in the pics from angle / shadow of my hand. Not sure what a foot is. Seems odd to me that everything looks perfect on the ss/sn side and off on the other side. I must say the the pics of the interior, case and dial seem right. Any other observations regarding these things? Still don't know for sure.

[TuRo]

'Foot on it' is the line across the bottom of the 1 btw.

My advice, as this thread has stuttered a smidge I feel.

Put the photos up on the Vintage Rolex Forum (VRF) Tapatalk - Google it.... takes 2 mins to join.

Here's the LINK :

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vintagerolexforum/

It's got some great 'inside baseball' type expertise from various members but notably Xeramic, Mike Wood, Jedly who don't frequent this RF forum that often.

Most of us are there also btw.

Report back pls

Ps - I tried to find some mid 80's capaccino dial 16013s to compare dials - only one I found was this one with the more common T SWISS T dial footer. Would be worth getting VRF opinion(s) I'd suggest on your T SWISS MADE T version as to whether original, service or other too.

Rolex Datejust 36
£4,417
https://chrono24.app/rolex/datejust-...GB&SETCURR=GBP

Rgds P

[KY..]

Originally Posted by TuRo

My advice, as this thread has stuttered a smidge I feel.

Put the photos up on the Vintage Rolex Forum (VRF) Tapatalk - Google it.... takes 2 mins to join.

Here's the LINK https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vintagerolexforum/

It's got some great expertise incl. Xeramic, Mike Wood, Jedly who don't frequent this RF forum that often.

Most of us are there also btw.

Report back pls

Rgds P

I agree with Paul as you will likely get to the bottom of it by using VRF along with TRF.
The combination of using both forums is an information overload if you want to learn and understand more on vintage Rolex.

[B E Austin]

Originally Posted by TuRo

'Foot on it' is the line across the bottom of the 1 btw.

My advice, as this thread has stuttered a smidge I feel.

Put the photos up on the Vintage Rolex Forum (VRF) Tapatalk - Google it.... takes 2 mins to join.

Here's the LINK :

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vintagerolexforum/

It's got some great 'inside baseball' type expertise from various members but notably Xeramic, Mike Wood, Jedly who don't frequent this RF forum that often.

Most of us are there also btw.

Report back pls

Ps - I tried to find some mid 80's capaccino dial 16013s to compare dials - only one I found was this one with the more common T SWISS T dial footer. Would be worth getting VRF opinion(s) I'd suggest on your T SWISS MADE T version as to whether original, service or other too.

Rolex Datejust 36
£4,417
https://chrono24.app/rolex/datejust-...GB&SETCURR=GBP

Rgds P

Whoa! I posted on VRF and already I've gained knowledge indirectly from Xeramic and so far, finding out about older cases {80's} used with older fonts on one side and service fonts on the other. Or even new production using overstock service cases. Also, I've seen other Datejusts like mine and one from the 90's as well. Unbelievable wealth of knowledge over there.

[Ferrari308]

Interesting.

It looks real to me, but I do NOT claim to be an expert. I am here to learn as well.


PDG

[Dan S]

In my experience, T SWISS MADE T is ok for an 8.87M serial. I'm more interested in the engravings.

[B E Austin]

Originally Posted by Dan S

In my experience, T SWISS MADE T is ok for an 8.87M serial. I'm more interested in the engravings.

Do you have any thought on the engravings or see anything else odd?

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by B E Austin

Do you have any thought on the engravings or see anything else odd?

Sorry, I really don't have anything more to add based on my firsthand knowledge. As I mentioned, it's unusual.

[Goochy]

I’ve seen two fonts on the same case before. My 1019 has different fonts and is 100% correct having been through RSC at Kings Hill.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by Goochy

I’ve seen two fonts on the same case before. My 1019 has different fonts and is 100% correct having been through RSC at Kings Hill.

Very interesting photos and no ORIG. ROLEX DESIGN on a 6.1 million. Thanks.

[B E Austin]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Very interesting photos and no ORIG. ROLEX DESIGN on a 6.1 million. Thanks.

As I said earlier, I remember seeing a post on a Forum stating that Rolex randomly did this for several years after '82. Man, wish I had saved that post or find it now. BTW Turo, I joined the "Vintage" forum. I'll take some time and post these questions and pics over there when I get home.

[Goochy]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Very interesting photos and no ORIG. ROLEX DESIGN on a 6.1 million. Thanks.

I always thought that this was a peculiarity of 1019's but obviously there are others. If you do a search for 1019's on google or the usual watch auction sites you'll find lots of examples of 1019's without the "Design" line engraved, some dating back much earlier than the 80's.

[B E Austin]

Originally Posted by Goochy

I always thought that this was a peculiarity of 1019's but obviously there are others. If you do a search for 1019's on google or the usual watch auction sites you'll find lots of examples of 1019's without the "Design" line engraved, some dating back much earlier than the 80's.

The thing I see is that the 1's are like my Datejust with the downward top line and no foot on the Model number side. And they also match the 1's on the other side.

[Goochy]

Originally Posted by B E Austin

The thing I see is that the 1's are like my Datejust with the downward top line and no foot on the Model number side. And they also match the 1's on the other side.

Yes you are correct. This is not uncommon for 1019 but I'm not a Datejust expert. For what its worth, I think you're case is genuine and correct but like I said I'm not a Datejust expert.

[TuRo]

I found this from the late great Marcello, perhaps one of the most knowledgeable ever on TRF:

Some words from Marcello Pisani RIP - from his words June 20 2009, 1:07 AM

"REF replacement cases, they are not ONLY in the usual 4 mill. range ( from around 4.3 to ..... ) : there are also cases replaced in the '90 with the old case number ( although with the same fonts used in those years and the words ORIGINAL ROLEX DESIGN instead of REGISTERED DESIGN )"

Good luck on VRF etc

[TuRo]

Yes, there is some real knowledge both here and there..great stuff....mission accomplished, and your mind at rest.

It's a great feeling getting confirmation that something you bought years ago that you had a niggle about is correct and your not buried £0000's into a hole !

Happened to me years ago and I got a thumbs up on it from the good burghers here or vrf.

Lifesavers.

Thanks for coming back to us too btw.