Journe vs gronefeld

[JR16]

Originally Posted by Lo100169

FPJ is not mass produced:

- they made about 40 grande sonnerie in total, it took them years to develop the watch

- production of the CB is now 100 a year

- the make 700 watches a year in total



They use state of the art machinery to produce the watch components to high standards, then apply hand finishing while a single watchmaker assembles the entire watch.

It is a different philosophy than P. Dufour who does everything old school.

that is why i like FPJ so much, it is a great balance between tradition and modernity.



And definitely not a mass production.

CB is now 50/year FYI


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[agentmeister5]

Originally Posted by JR16

CB is now 50/year FYI


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When did this happen? I thought it was cut from 190 or 200 to 100 earlier this year. When was it cut to 50?

[SearChart]

I've never seen an FPJ in the flesh so can't comment on them.

What I have seen is many Grönefeld watches in various stages of production when I was in their atelier a few years ago. I met both Bart & Tim Grönefeld and I know two watchmakers who work there.
So yeah, my pick would be Grönefeld

[En_nissen]

If one's definition of hand made is so strict an FPJ isn't considered hand made, then pretty much nothing in the modern world is hand made... Nothing is fully hand made. One could argue that if the watch maker doesn't mine and smelt his own steel, his watches really aren't hand made. Doesn't mean his watches aren't actually hand made though....

[JR16]

Originally Posted by agentmeister5

When did this happen? I thought it was cut from 190 or 200 to 100 earlier this year. When was it cut to 50?

According to my contact at FPJ, production had been around 100/ year until this year when it dropped to 50/year. The former number can be corroborated by matching a given case number to the year it was produced/sold.


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[eviperman]

Originally Posted by DGB

FPJ is limited production, not mass produced, but you corrected that.

They are hand made not machine made as you wrongly mentioned and also hand assembled in Geneva thus its limited production.

You got one number correct, that is 99% .... but that is the watch components they build themselves.

Each watch is a masterpiece of innovation, FPJ has patented more innovations in the last 10 years that any other watchmaker.

FPJ is way above standard luxury watches. The CB dial is unique with the way it reflects light, no picture can capture that like the naked eye can.

That’s why FPJ is highly respected and sought after.


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Completely agree with the above!

Paul, you mentioned AKRIVIA as being one of the best non-mass produced makers...

Where did Rexhep Rexhepi work prior to starting AKRIVIA?

In case you didn't know, it was Patek Philippe AND Montres Journe. Rexhep admired the way FP Journe watches are made so much that he has adopted the same procedure whereby one watchmaker makes the watch from start to finish, which is not how the other brands you mentioned work. Every FP Journe watch can be traced back to a specific watchmaker, so that's hardly a process one follows if "mass produced" is what you're aiming for.

[DGB]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Hi BigAppleBill,



Yes, I have actually spent quite a bit of time looking at FPJ's both at dealers and wearing one for a week (borrowed from a friend who has one). The CS was on my short list for a while. Although I have not seen a CB in the metal, I have experience with many of their other watches.



The brand isn't for me. That's a me thing. Everyone can like, or dislike whatever they want.



I really appreciate your kind offer of meeting up. It is always nice to meet a fellow watch lover! After all, I don't run into fellow WIS in my everyday life and it is always special to share our passion. If I'm in NYC in the near future, I will be sure to let you know, and if you are ever in Toronto I am happy to show you were to get the good coffee



-Paul

That’s the spirit,

Apologies if I sounded offensive, I just wanted to give you some facts about FPJ. I met Mister Journe, from a 30 sec hand shake we spent around 40 minutes discussing philosophy of watch making which somehow impressed me, as we had no appointment and this wasn’t planned.
The guy is really knowledgeable about watch history, a kind of George Daniels, he gives you explanations about why he made this or that choice etc...
I respect your view if you don’t like the brand, but I am sure if you meet the man, you’ll change your mind.


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[tom2517]

Originally Posted by Lo100169

FPJ is not mass produced:
- they made about 40 grande sonnerie in total, it took them years to develop the watch
- production of the CB is now 100 a year
- the make 700 watches a year in total

They use state of the art machinery to produce the watch components to high standards, then apply hand finishing while a single watchmaker assembles the entire watch.
It is a different philosophy than P. Dufour who does everything old school.
that is why i like FPJ so much, it is a great balance between tradition and modernity.

And definitely not a mass production.

Is 700 a confirmation from FPJ themselves? I have also heard it is around 1000/year, and I read somewhere The Hour Glass said they make less than 900 a year, less than 900 meant is it 700? Or 899?

What is considered mass produced? Rolex is mass produced compare to Patek, but Patek is a mass producer of watches compare to FPJ. Even at say, 700, FJP can be considered mass produced compare to Akrivia.

And what exactly is hand finishing nowadays? FPJ CB does not exhibit signs of hand beveling with a wood stick (though I don’t expect it at that price point), it is just polished edge that can be done with a hand held motorized tool. So does hand holding a motorized tool considered hand finishing or no?

I think it’s hard to make an argument when it seems like there is no hard definition that everyone can agree on.

[cbalster]

what is the retail price of the FPJ CB?

[Jay (Eire)]

Well, this went way off topic. Some really interesting and misplaced (or maybe misinformed opinions).

Anyway, to the OP I think as Ben said if value is a concern (and that is a very valid concern to have) then Independents is a risky sandbox to be playing in.

Sorry if that’s not the answer you wanted but no one can be sure that the CB won’t be back at $15-16k used again or that the Grönefeld won’t be selling for $30k.



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[GB-man]

Originally Posted by cbalster

what is the retail price of the FPJ CB?

low 20s

[JR16]

Originally Posted by cbalster

what is the retail price of the FPJ CB?

I think it’s around $24k US


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[Ilushka85]

Went with the gronefeld for now. Now the wait begins for it to be built.

[JR16]

Originally Posted by Ilushka85

Went with the gronefeld for now. Now the wait begins for it to be built.

Which dial did you go with ? How long is the process ?


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[DGB]

Originally Posted by tom2517

Is 700 a confirmation from FPJ themselves? I have also heard it is around 1000/year, and I read somewhere The Hour Glass said they make less than 900 a year, less than 900 meant is it 700? Or 899?



What is considered mass produced? Rolex is mass produced compare to Patek, but Patek is a mass producer of watches compare to FPJ. Even at say, 700, FJP can be considered mass produced compare to Akrivia.



And what exactly is hand finishing nowadays? FPJ CB does not exhibit signs of hand beveling with a wood stick (though I don’t expect it at that price point), it is just polished edge that can be done with a hand held motorized tool. So does hand holding a motorized tool considered hand finishing or no?



I think it’s hard to make an argument when it seems like there is no hard definition that everyone can agree on.

You have a point here, everything is relative.


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[DGB]

Originally Posted by Ilushka85

Went with the gronefeld for now. Now the wait begins for it to be built.

A good choice, well done .


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[joli160]

Originally Posted by tom2517

Yeah second hand value is a concern, go Journe.

And where exactly can you buy pre loved Gronefeld watches ?

You cannot. Gronefeld must be great value and owners cherish them

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by joli160

And where exactly can you buy pre loved Gronefeld watches ?

You cannot. Gronefeld must be great value and owners cherish them

I've always wondered this as well. Sure, they don't make a ton of watches, but it's extremely impressive (and telling) that not many hit the secondary market.

[_speedmaster_]

Btw, I had the pleasure of meeting Bart and Tim yesterday. Great, humble, down-to-earth people who have a true passion for their craft.

[JR16]

Originally Posted by joli160

And where exactly can you buy pre loved Gronefeld watches ?



You cannot. Gronefeld must be great value and owners cherish them

Well at only ~300 watches / year worldwide I’m not surprised they are hard to find second hand . I would imagine they would have a small target audience , making it harder to sell and hence the person selling to a gray would take a bloodbath to the point of not making it worth it to sell... just a theory. With that said , I tried on a few today and love the design language and the movement. Only tried on SS, however and found it hard to stomach a SS watch for the asking price . But really did like them .






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[kunlun]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

Btw, I had the pleasure of meeting Bart and Tim yesterday. Great, humble, down-to-earth people who have a true passion for their craft.

Ah, we were both at Cellini at the same time, most likely.

I spent my time peppering KV with questions and speaking with Jay(Eire).

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by kunlun

Ah, we were both at Cellini at the same time, most likely.

I spent my time peppering KV with questions and speaking with Jay(Eire).

Ah, cool. I was there around noon. Spent most of my time talking to the GF brothers and Baumgartner (trying my best to push for smaller Urwerk options).

I wonder if I crossed paths with you and Jay.

[tom2517]

Originally Posted by joli160

And where exactly can you buy pre loved Gronefeld watches ?

You cannot. Gronefeld must be great value and owners cherish them

I had seen them come up for sale.

Gronfeld is like my Eichi II and SBGZ001, not many made and rarely comes up for sale. But they are still a niche market, only particular people likes them. If you need liquidity right away, they don’t do well. That’s why I said FPJ is better.

[AK797]

I'd say the Gronefeld is more artisanal and clinical, the Journe more artistic and flamboyant.

[rockdrock]

Originally Posted by JR16

I think it’s around $24k US


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CB MSRP in US $24,900.


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