Why the interest in AP?

[Token74]

Originally Posted by AshAP

The big one (IMO) has to be a successful marriage, I couldn’t contemplate handing over 50% of everything I’ve worked for and starting all over again, the wife tax philosophy must be working ;-)

I’m still trying to work out how I can offset the cost of a Ferrari by not drinking but I’ll work on my intake.

Re the reason behind this thread, I think ultimately the success is in line with what you’d expect from a brand that treats its clients (old and new) the way AP does. AP is a seriously cool brand backed up with a range of fantastic watches and that is what is initially attracting people. Add to that the fact that the AP lounge concept is amazing and now guarantees that the brand is in total control of the whole buying experience from the moment a potential new client walks through the door, the experience is memorable and people will talk about it with their friends. The relationship generally doesn’t end there after the first purchase, AP lounge is always extremely welcoming even if you just want somewhere to meet your mates for a coffee or something stronger.


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Spot on!

I fell foul of the marriage tax, and it was 90% rather than 50% for the benefit of the kids!

Agree with everything on the AP front, it is now my favourite brand, because of the experience as much as the watches. I continue to be a huge Rolex fan because i still think they are the best at what they do, and i can’t help but love Patek, but AP wins for me. The service I’ve had over the past couple of years from AP house and the boutique in Sloane Street has been different class. Currently have five APs, wouldn’t rule out that becoming six this year


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[Vivalas]

Agree Ash the ‘divorce’ scenario is a nightmare. It’s not just the losing 50% but also very age related - losing half and starting again at 30, even 40 maybe is realistic. In fact at those ages you may not still be near your earning capacity. However doing it at a later age, say 50 plus would be very tough. That said one of my dads friends got maybe at 20 and divorced at 50 which was his choice (he couldn’t do anything ‘right’ and was just unhappy). He told me he’d had 30 miserable years and could well live another 30 and wouldn’t want that again. He met someone a couple of years later, got married, rebuilt his assets and retired to Portugal. He’s now 73 and lives a wonderful happy life. Life’s too short I guess.

As for AP, there’s something quite special about their watches, history and service. Only have 1 so far but my dealings with the AP House have been nothing but excellent!

[GS93108]

I probably shouldn’t have been so flippant with my divorce comment, but then again, this is the internet so anything goes...

As to a virtual GTG, it’s something that I’ve been kicking around for a while, ever since our actual GTG got kiboshed. It’s not difficult to implement technically, it’s more the numbers of us really. Roger says that TRF has 70 members at a time on a call, what a nightmare, I’d rather watch the news.

I had about 35 people voice an interest in an AP GTG last summer, and thus presume that a dozen or so would have been a realistic final number, given scheduling, travel, lack of commitment etc.

I’m guessing a dozen or so in a virtual GTG would be manageable too. Leave the concept with me for a while.

Interesting thoughts that have been offered as to AP’s attraction though. It is really peculiar though how ten years ago I could have bought a 15202 at a discount in Beverly Hills, yet today they are revered and fetch stupid premiums...but as I also said, I bought bitcoin at $400 (but not enough), so I accept I know nothing about anything.

Carry on...

[kohuti02]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

Totally with you here...I had to take the dive myself. ALS are truly in their own league. I also think the days of plummeting Lange values are over. Will you make money? I highly doubt it. But I see the interest in the brand increasing a lot in 2021 and I think we'll start seeing some price firming.

I agree.
I'd go further: Lange will inevitably follow FPJ's trajectory in this market. Just a matter of time.

[Oyster Sauce]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

I'm going to be rather open here because this is a great conversation. I much rather be having it with you in person Gary in a London pub or at the AP house, but for now we are stuck in front of these damn computers!

I think the short and direct answer to the question is many people have come to the conclusion that watches can be an "investment", and/or what I call a "store of value". More on that in a moment...

There are many factors driving the hype, IMO:

- Increased attention and interest in all sorts of watches ranging from $100 G-Shocks to $1m Patek Grand Complications. Watches ARE cool now. I don't know if Apple Watch helped to drive it or not, but what I know with certainty is the Apple Watch didn't kill horology. If anything it made it more prevalent.

- Massive investment gains and general feeling of financial well-being for parts of the population are leading to unguarded spending on luxury items. And yes, we should recognize how ridiculous this is when 30%+ of the population at least here in the United States are experiencing the complete opposite feeling and they're facing financial despair.

- Social Media is as strong as ever. We often say that people only know Rolex. That's really changed. I've run into people that are much younger than me and they are VERY well aware of Patek and Audemars Piguet. And, of course, Richard Mille.

Back to the investment thing. I honestly think times have changed and while many people shrill at the thought of watches being investments, there are simply many people that do think they are. And, all it takes is looking at a few charts on Chrono24 to see that prices seem to only go in one direction. That's not only for AP, Rolex, and Patek. Check out a few Tags, or Omegas...All of them have charts that look like U.S. Growth stocks.

I contrast that a bit with what I call a "store of value". Personally, this is how I view watches. I don't buy them to invest. I won't buy anything that doesn't appeal to me (even if my taste may change in a short period of time). If I had investment purely in mind, they'd never once be slapped on my wrist. They'd sit in a safe and come out only when I sold them. But, I do view my watches as a store of value. I am not made of money, and my philosophy is I can buy watches as long as they hold their value relatively well. For me, that rule is 75%. Even if I really love a watch, if I don't think I can get out of it for 75% of what I paid for it, I don't buy it. So, I take extreme care with my watches, I don't buy what I cannot afford, I assume the money I spend is "gone", I have limits with what I'm comfortable with, I buy what I like for the most part...and that's that.

If something radically changed and we returned to the days where watches depreciate 50% or more once you walk out, I will freely admit I would collect much, much less than I do now. I don't feel this makes me any less of a collector or watch aficionado. I like to say I am a "modern day collector", if that makes sense.

I keep saying watches are now a market. Just like art. Just like cars. There will be some things that perform exceptionally well, and some things that won't. But, I'm dead set convinced this concept of a "market" is here to stay.

Love this type of conversation and I really look forward to hearing what others have to say...

Really like this post...thanks for sharing

[Token74]

Great question Gary and lots of great responses, not sure i can add anything.

I don’t really buy the ‘investment’ argument, we shouldn’t get too influenced by the posts on forums. Whilst I’m sure it goes on, it’s a minority activity, certainly i don’t know anyone that is buying AP for investment purposes.

However, as some others have suggested, the retained value makes it a lot easier to buy a luxury item. When i first started buying watches, my finances dictated that something had to give. So changing my car every two years instead of every year, significantly reducing the direction burden. Spending the saved cash on watches that didn’t depreciate suddenly seemed to make sense.

As the years have gone by, I’ve started spending less on cars to find my watch hobby. My current car cost a third of what I would have spent before i started obsessing over watches. I now have 12 watches (including five APs) that reflect the depreciation i would have suffered if I’d spent on cars rather than watches. And when i see the value of those watches today, it feels good!

I have lots of friends right now that are selling or downgrading their cars because they aren’t using them right now, and are expecting that to continue in the future with more remote working. So suddenly, i have friends who weren’t interested in watches asking me about which watches to look at as they have some disposable cash and want to treat themselves.

As for why AP? Brilliant marketing, great customer service, lack of Rolex availability, and the Offshore attracting the younger market.

Rambled way too much, as others have said, would be a great discussion over dinner.


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[enjoythemusic]

Am a big fan of Mr Robot, and so.... but considering availability nowadays AP is a hard pass. i can wait a decade or so and if AP still interests me can easily circle back at some point. After decades of collecting, these new 'boutique games' are getting quite old and not worth the effort imho. i hear FPJ treats their boutique customers with respect, and they're very helpful too. Of course FPJ is a major level up from AP.

[AshAP]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

i hear FPJ treats their boutique customers with respect, and they're very helpful too. Of course FPJ is a major level up from AP.

So your contribution to this thread only relies on hearsay?


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[Patton250]

Originally Posted by AshAP

So your contribution to this thread only relies on hearsay?


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No.... that wasn’t his only contribution. He had a nice healthy dig at AP as well.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Am a big fan of Mr Robot, and so.... but considering availability nowadays AP is a hard pass. i can wait a decade or so and if AP still interests me can easily circle back at some point. After decades of collecting, these new 'boutique games' are getting quite old and not worth the effort imho. i hear FPJ treats their boutique customers with respect, and they're very helpful too. Of course FPJ is a major level up from AP.

I have been to the FPJ boutique in Miami and I can tell you firsthand they treat people very well but so do all the AP boutiques I’ve been to. I can also tell you as well FPJ has 100% joined in on the “good luck getting pieces” frenzy. Call them tomorrow. They will tell you that pretty much all of their 2021 allocations have been pre sold. That along with a pretty handsome price increase they had a couple weeks ago. So they are no different then Rolex, Patek and AP at this point.

[fullofboats]

Lol

If AP is playing boutique games then FPJ is approaching RM levels

The HK boutique straight up tells you they have no watches to sell and all waitlists are closed. They say it politely of course but makes me wonder why they bother to even have a physical store anymore.


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[P2725TMB]

I must admit over the past year I’ve lost some of my interest in watches, although not completely, and chances are with the right ‘kick’ interest will return.

My following of AP was and is largely for two reasons - their watches and their service.

I love some of their watches – I’m not a fan of the new Code etc but I think that the ROs, ROCs and ROOs are just a superb design that won’t age. Sure there’s elements that could be improved, but the overall design and manufacture is superb.

My first AP was the older silver sub-dialled ROO RG44, which is still one of my favourite pieces that I wear often, on a black and red GP strap. Soon after I got it it had a power reserve problem. I visited AP London at Moss House and had a bit of a moan - but my moan was met with totally top notch customer service. Daniel there was the epitome of someone who clearly loved the brand he worked for and represented and knew how to look after its clients, even minor ones such as myself. Daniel immediately said he’d expedite the watch repair and get it back to me within one month (which he did) and invited me on a factory visit in compensation.

Time has moved on and I’ve been fortunate enough to obtain a small number of APs and been really very well looked after by Daniel and his team with events and gifts, which has made me feel valued as a customer and part of the AP family, without doubt helping keep me loyal to AP. If the service had been less welcoming and less proactive would I have migrated to another brand, probably not, but it’s certainly helped keep me loyal and made the buying experience a lot better and easier.

My first ‘luxury’ watch was a Rolex Deep Sea and in stark contrast the AD I bought it from (situated in a mall) was pleasant, but the buying experience awful. No tea, coffee or water offered, music inside the (small) boutique competing with different music outside, and a noisy fan competing with both. Then a lackadaisical attitude with sizing the watch to my wrist properly, watch put in a box too small so the lid wouldn’t close properly (I should’ve complained but didn’t) and apparent keenness to get me on my way. Clearly such an experience makes no difference to the actual watch, it’s the same object, but it makes a huge difference to how I perceive it and my enjoyment – especially as it was my first high-end piece that I’d been looking forward to with anticipation for ages. Very deflating.

I guess nowadays some of these brands and ADs are inundated with requests and don’t work hard on customer service because they don’t need to - but it’s a pity, because when things change value retention wise they may then need us as much as we need them.

Whilst it’s clearly very nice to know that the watches you own will retain most of their value, if not more, for me this shortage and competitive issue to get watches in short supply has reduced my interest and I hope it changes, so we can (post COVID) walk into AP London or wherever and see a nice array of desirable pieces in the metal. It will be interesting how watch sales methodology evolves. Clearly AP and other brands were already looking at selling more online and ‘remotely’ before COVID, and the current situation will surely accelerate it and make remote buying of high-end luxury items more acceptable for clients. I’m old school and would much prefer it if any watches I might buy in the future I am able to collect to (hopefully) get that personal VIP treatment and experience.

I’m not shy about saying its nice to be treated like a VIP and feel you’re important for a few minutes. I came into a position of being able to afford luxury things quite late in life, so it’s nice to be looked at and treated as somebody important by a high end brand, in contrast to my deflating initial Rolex Deep Sea experience.

[Etschell]

blame ap for helping with the code 1159 abomination.

[GS93108]

Chris, that’s a pretty nice testimonial for Daniel (AP UK CEO for anyone that didn’t know) and his team. It pretty much sums up my own feelings towards AP UK.

I haven’t had any direct purchasing contact with AP overseas for a number of years, but I have met some of Daniel’s counterparts from differing countries and regions, and they all left me with the impression that the service from Daniel and AP UK is indeed somewhat ubiquitous across the brand, or at least that’s the goal. I know that when conditions allow, and when I visit with AP in other AP Houses that they’ll offer the same level of wonderful service and interaction.

Plus of course, the whole AP environment has allowed me to meet a lot of other APers, some in person, and some tabled for future meet ups. That’s pretty nice. I’m not sure I’d make the effort for Rolex. I’ve had many Subs in the past, but never once did I feel anything other than a customer, nor did I ever even think about connecting with other Rolexers.

I can’t rate AP highly enough for many reasons. But that’s primarily because of my own experiences.

Years ago I bought my very first brand new Porsche 911. I didn’t have the budget for a new one, but visited the dealer looking for a used model in my budget. Unfortunately the model I wanted, 911 Super Sport, was just a little too old for the dealer to carry as used stock. They KNEW that the 993 was out of my budget and that I was therefore not a realistic prospect for them but they invited me and my future wife to an amazing track day, not just racing around a track, but a full on day of 911 experiences. At the end of the day I told my dealer that they need never ever produce another printed brochure ever again, just get ‘bums on seats’ in the car, the car will sell itself. Needless to say I found the extra budget.

That’s a long winded analogy to my experience with AP. The watches in hand speak for themselves and sell themselves. Add AP’s exceptional service and hey presto.

BUT, AP newbies don’t have any of that experience, only ‘hearsay’ from us existing owners.

Service and ‘inclusion’ rules in my book. But, I posed my initial question simply because new AP wannabies haven’t experiences those aspects, a huge part of the buying experience, so I found it difficult to tally the interest level.

Now you’ve educated me, APs are indeed a ‘storage of value’ or an asset for speculation.

[Vivalas]

Let me throw another possibility into the mix and say ‘easy availability of cheap money’ and how that changes things.

For background info I’ve been an IFA (independent financial adviser) since I was 27 in 1997. I have 6 mortgage advisers in my firm as well. So I’ve seen the dot com boom, the dot com bust, the stock markets peak in 1999 and halve by 2003. Watched them double again and halve again in the credit crunch of 2008. I’ve seen so much in those years and the one thing it all boils down to is how easy is it to get cheap money. In 2008 the markets tightened up so much everything from the markets to houses dropped in value as no one could get borrowing like they could a few months earlier. Whatever country you live in, you’ll know this.

Money today is cheap - very cheap. Under 2% for mortgages, loans not much higher and everyone doing interest free deals. With cheap money, that brings low savings rates so people look for places to put their money. Should I use the word ‘invest’ even?

So if money is cheap, also easy to get hold of and there’s no decent savings rates out there, why not put it in something that you can own, wear, enjoy and . . . . Make money on! That unfortunately is what’s happened with Rolex in the last few years. Like it or not, it’s the reality. I’ve had quite a few friends ask me what’s the best watch to buy to invest in. I always give two answers. 1. Watches aren’t made to be investments. 2. If you can actually go and buy a watch, you’re aren’t going to make any money on it.

I really dislike this idea, but if enough people think it’s an investment, at this moment in time, it’s an investment. If we see another credit crunch, all of this will be reversed and quickly. Another reason why people are crazy to borrow money to buy watches!

So you then take AP - an exclusive brand, great heritage, amazing watches and in my limited experience, superb customer service and maybe that’s why the interest in AP?

Enough of my ramblings but that’s my take.

[ganiccus]

Originally Posted by AshAP

So your contribution to this thread only relies on hearsay?


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I would buy an AP anyday of the week before I even look at a Journe, this brand is a perfect marriage of snake oil marketing pumped mostly by Watchbox and cult following by rich men who want to be a part of something they don't really understand because they are more interested in the value retention of their watches than actual horology. FPJ must be laughing all the way to his bank, watching his customers throw their money at useless complications that are actually not working in the real world.

[sgwatchguy]

Good discussion.

For me AP has a younger more chic vibe than Rolex or PP. Sure I love Rolex and everyone and their grandad is seeking any SS model now, but AP is a more contemporary product. They’re keeping the brand very fresh and that’s attractive. Rolex is so uptight and PP is stodgy (IMO). Even after code, even with a watch that’s from before I was born, AP is cool. Quite simply that’s it for me at least. RO and ROO are ageless as someone said.

Now marry that with good/great customer service and it’s not a surprise to me why it’s on the up with a whole new set of clients.

[macrowatch]

I do miss the days where even buying an Explorer or Datejust was a VIP experience. These days pick up for XYZ hot watch feels like a walk of shame home. Experience all gone from the retail environment even pre Covid IMHO.

[Burlington]

Every interaction I’ve ever had with the AP team has been amazing.

In London, Miami, Rome, Dubai and the Clearwater tour they so kindly organised for me a couple of years ago.

The history of AP, their balance between form & function, sporty yet haute.

These are some of the things that attracted me to the brand before adding the diver.

Maybe it’s the same for many people just starting to get on board now.

[dauster]

Originally Posted by P2725TMB

I must admit over the past year I’ve lost some of my interest in watches, although not completely, and chances are with the right ‘kick’ interest will return.

My following of AP was and is largely for two reasons - their watches and their service.

I love some of their watches – I’m not a fan of the new Code etc but I think that the ROs, ROCs and ROOs are just a superb design that won’t age. Sure there’s elements that could be improved, but the overall design and manufacture is superb.

My first AP was the older silver sub-dialled ROO RG44, which is still one of my favourite pieces that I wear often, on a black and red GP strap. Soon after I got it it had a power reserve problem. I visited AP London at Moss House and had a bit of a moan - but my moan was met with totally top notch customer service. Daniel there was the epitome of someone who clearly loved the brand he worked for and represented and knew how to look after its clients, even minor ones such as myself. Daniel immediately said he’d expedite the watch repair and get it back to me within one month (which he did) and invited me on a factory visit in compensation.

Time has moved on and I’ve been fortunate enough to obtain a small number of APs and been really very well looked after by Daniel and his team with events and gifts, which has made me feel valued as a customer and part of the AP family, without doubt helping keep me loyal to AP. If the service had been less welcoming and less proactive would I have migrated to another brand, probably not, but it’s certainly helped keep me loyal and made the buying experience a lot better and easier.

My first ‘luxury’ watch was a Rolex Deep Sea and in stark contrast the AD I bought it from (situated in a mall) was pleasant, but the buying experience awful. No tea, coffee or water offered, music inside the (small) boutique competing with different music outside, and a noisy fan competing with both. Then a lackadaisical attitude with sizing the watch to my wrist properly, watch put in a box too small so the lid wouldn’t close properly (I should’ve complained but didn’t) and apparent keenness to get me on my way. Clearly such an experience makes no difference to the actual watch, it’s the same object, but it makes a huge difference to how I perceive it and my enjoyment – especially as it was my first high-end piece that I’d been looking forward to with anticipation for ages. Very deflating.

I guess nowadays some of these brands and ADs are inundated with requests and don’t work hard on customer service because they don’t need to - but it’s a pity, because when things change value retention wise they may then need us as much as we need them.

Whilst it’s clearly very nice to know that the watches you own will retain most of their value, if not more, for me this shortage and competitive issue to get watches in short supply has reduced my interest and I hope it changes, so we can (post COVID) walk into AP London or wherever and see a nice array of desirable pieces in the metal. It will be interesting how watch sales methodology evolves. Clearly AP and other brands were already looking at selling more online and ‘remotely’ before COVID, and the current situation will surely accelerate it and make remote buying of high-end luxury items more acceptable for clients. I’m old school and would much prefer it if any watches I might buy in the future I am able to collect to (hopefully) get that personal VIP treatment and experience.

I’m not shy about saying its nice to be treated like a VIP and feel you’re important for a few minutes. I came into a position of being able to afford luxury things quite late in life, so it’s nice to be looked at and treated as somebody important by a high end brand, in contrast to my deflating initial Rolex Deep Sea experience.

+1 totally understand and agree with everything you said. Let’s hope the world gets back to normal soon