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vintagewaferthin · 11 January 2021, 06:28 AM

When was the switch made from the 17 jewel cal 1520 to the 26 jewel 1520? I have a '79 5500 with the cal 1520 that as far as I can recall has a 17j 1520. It hacks as well.

I brought to RSC a few years ago and they mentioned it was all correct. My question is: Is 1979 too late to have a 17j 1520 or is that normal?

Dan S · 11 January 2021, 07:27 AM

Do you think it was strictly by date? I always thought that the low-jeweled and high-jeweled movements were made simultaneously and the former were for the US market. I have certainly seen 26 jewel movements in many watches from the early 1970s, although I'm more familiar with 5513s.

vintagewaferthin · 11 January 2021, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan S

Do you think it was strictly by date? I always thought that the low-jeweled and high-jeweled movements were made simultaneously and the former were for the US market. I have certainly seen 26 jewel movements in many watches from the early 1970s, although I'm more familiar with 5513s.

Not familiar too much with that to be honest. Id imagine if it was incorrect, RSC would have mentioned it, but was just curious. I believe it has the 17j version inside. Based on the serial, Rolex told me the watch was from late 79-very early 80.

vintagewaferthin · 11 January 2021, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan S

Do you think it was strictly by date? I always thought that the low-jeweled and high-jeweled movements were made simultaneously and the former were for the US market. I have certainly seen 26 jewel movements in many watches from the early 1970s, although I'm more familiar with 5513s.

After just looking, I've found some from that era with both. So must have been distributed at the same time. Interesting.

Dr.Smellody · 11 January 2021, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagewaferthin

After just looking, I've found some from that era with both. So must have been distributed at the same time. Interesting.

I've read in a couple sources that the 17 jewel movements were started in the 60's for the US market as movements were taxes by the number of jewels.

vintagewaferthin · 11 January 2021, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Smellody

If read in a couple sources that the 17 jewel movements were started in the 60's for the US market as movements were taxes by the number of jewels.

Ive heard that too. Ive seen a few from 79-80 w the 17j version, but beyond that not any. So I wonder if they completely fazed out the 17j version by 81.

Dan S · 11 January 2021, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Smellody

If read in a couple sources that the 17 jewel movements were started in the 60's for the US market as movements were taxes by the number of jewels.

This is definitely true and several brands did this. IIRC, it was often accomplished by using bushings vs. jewels in the autowinding mechanism. For example, Omega made low- and high-jewel versions of various autowinding movements. In Omega's case, they usually give them different caliber numbers, e.g. cal 550 vs. 552.

77T · 11 January 2021, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagewaferthin

Ive heard that too. Ive seen a few from 79-80 w the 17j version, but beyond that not any. So I wonder if they completely fazed out the 17j version by 81.

The movement itself switched from 17 jewels in 1980. They weren’t making any after 1980.

Whether a watch was cased right away with the new version simply depended upon what was already in inventory.

If you have the original papers then you know the year it wasn’t produced. For example, if the papers say 1981, the watch itself may have been made in any prior year and just sat in the case.

FWIW, the s/n charts are close approximations.

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vintagewaferthin · 11 January 2021, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 77T

The movement itself switched from 17 jewels in 1980. They weren’t making any after 1980.

Whether a watch was cased right away with the new version simply depended upon what was already in inventory.

If you have the original papers then you know the year it wasn’t produced. For example, if the papers say 1981, the watch itself may have been made in any prior year and just sat in the case.

FWIW, the s/n charts are close approximations.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Ok, I figured that since I couldn't find any pics of a 5500 with a 17j 1520 post 1980.

77T · 11 January 2021, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan S

This is definitely true and several brands did this. IIRC, it was often accomplished by using bushings vs. jewels in the autowinding mechanism. For example, Omega made low- and high-jewel versions of various autowinding movements. In Omega's case, they usually give them different caliber numbers, e.g. cal 550 vs. 552.

Dan - US shipments and Europe/Asia shipments all carried the 17 jewel movement.

My reading was an overall cost-cutting move after mid-60’s due to profit margins.

The 1530 was phased out by Rolex for the 1520 with a stick regulator, rather than Microstella that had been in the 1530. Breguet overcoil was replaced by a flat hairspring, and it was originally released as a 17-jewel movement for global shipments. Only later, in 1980, did 25 and 26-jewel versions enter the production.

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Dan S · 11 January 2021, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 77T

Dan - US shipments and Europe/Asia shipments all carried the 17 jewel movement.

My reading was an overall cost-cutting move after mid-60’s due to profit margins.

The 1530 was phased out by Rolex for the 1520 with a stick regulator, rather than Microstella that had been in the 1530. Breguet overcoil was replaced by a flat hairspring, and it was originally released as a 17-jewel movement for global shipments. Only later, in 1980, did 25 and 26-jewel versions enter the production.

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vintagewaferthin · 11 January 2021, 12:50 PM

Interesting and informative thread this has become. Always something to learn with vintage Rolex.

77T · 11 January 2021, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan S

I didn’t look at every one of those listings but certainly believe you did and trust you read them right. I agree the whole thing is confusing except not exceeding so when it comes to Rolex...

Rolex didn’t design the 5513 for the chronometer status that a 26 jewel movement can provide. It started with a nicer 1530 inside, then moved to the cheaper 17 jewel 1520 in the mid-sixties.

I could speculate that the 5513’s you saw from the ‘70’s with 26 jewels had their original 17 jewel 1520 replaced with a newer 26 jewel 1520 sometime after 1980 because of moisture, poor service or rusted parts. It was cheaper then than buying a new watch.

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Dan S · 11 January 2021, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 77T

I didn’t look at every one of those listings but certainly believe you did and trust you read them right. I agree the whole thing is confusing except not exceeding so when it comes to Rolex...

Rolex didn’t design the 5513 for the chronometer status that a 26 jewel movement can provide. It started with a nicer 1530 inside, then moved to the cheaper 17 jewel 1520 in the mid-sixties.

I could speculate that the 5513’s you saw from the ‘70’s with 26 jewels had their original 17 jewel 1520 replaced with a newer 26 jewel 1520 sometime after 1980 because of moisture, poor service or rusted parts. It was cheaper then than buying a new watch.

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This is becoming an interesting topic. Hopefully others will add their thoughts.

The difference between 17 and 26 jewels in the 1520 mainly involves the autowinding mechanism IIRC, so that would be unrelated to chronometer status IMO.

From the sample I surveyed, there was a pretty even mix of 17 vs 26 jewel 1520 movements from the 1970s. Logically, it just doesn't seem plausible to me that those can all be explained by replacement movements from the 1980s. Moreover, as I mentioned above, Omega and other manufacturers commonly produced low and high jewel variants because of US import tariffs. So without additional proof, we may just have to agree to disagree on what is more likely.

Respectfully, because I'm sure you're extremely knowledgeable and more experienced than me, if you have actual evidence that 26j 1520 movements were not introduced until 1980, it would be great if you could post it. Because it is counter to what I have always heard, and what my watchmaker has told me (who has been a Rolex specialist since the 70s). Obviously there are a lot of forum posts and blogs on the internet making various claims, but there is also a lot of misinformation. I would prefer to base this on something more empirical if possible. I look forward to being proven wrong.

Or perhaps there is someone out there with a one-owner 26j 1520 from the 1970s who could prove the opposite.

SunTzu · 11 January 2021, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Smellody

I've read in a couple sources that the 17 jewel movements were started in the 60's for the US market as movements were taxes by the number of jewels.

That’s what I was told. My 5513 that was my grandfather’s from 1967 has 17 jewels. Bushings were substituted. I had mine upgraded to 26 jewels by an independent watchmaker that wrote technical manuals for Rolex years ago. I have a picture of the movement buried somewhere on my computer

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77T · 11 January 2021, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan S

Respectfully, because I'm sure you're extremely knowledgeable and more experienced than me, if you have actual evidence that 26j 1520 movements were not introduced until 1980, it would be great if you could post it.

The dates of changes in 1520 jewel counts coincides closely with the tariff actions someone mentioned earlier. Many books have followed the gyrations several Swiss companies undertook to avoid the tariffs.

Here’s a fairly good source: https://dusp.mit.edu/sites/dusp.mit....20industry.pdf

As far as the exact dates when things changed, I’ve lost access to the Dowling books or other sources. I can assure you that no 17 jewel 1520’s were made after 1980. That part I can remember clearly.

I recall the 1520 followed the 1530, and that it had less expensive components as I mentioned earlier. This was to reduce production costs against inferior movements while still trying to grow.

There are many issues around this time period that could have midcases indicating one year from the Internet lists, yet a seemingly anachronistic version of a 1520 movement inside. Few sellers have the entire life of a watch’s service work. I think the only trusted sources are when one finds a single owner, RUSA coded watch with papers that hasn’t been touched.

There won’t be anything I can share outside of that. It’s an arcane pursuit - but googling might produce a nugget or two.

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Dan S · 12 January 2021, 12:43 AM

Thanks for posting that interesting article. Yes, I agree that the 17j 1520s were made in response to the tariffs and I agree that they ended around 1980. The question for me was whether 17 and 26 jewel 1520s were made simultaneously throughout the 70s for different markets. I have run into many of the high jewel movements from that era and always assumed they were original but made for non-US markets as was done by other manufacturers. I'd like to know if that is incorrect. As you mentioned, it would be helpful to hear from original owners, and there may be some on the forum.

214270Explorer · 12 January 2021, 01:43 AM

Interesting subject. Learned something new today.

11 January 2021, 06:28 AM	#1
vintagewaferthin "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Earth Watch: Air-King 5500 Posts: 2,620	Caliber 1520 Jewel Variations When was the switch made from the 17 jewel cal 1520 to the 26 jewel 1520? I have a '79 5500 with the cal 1520 that as far as I can recall has a 17j 1520. It hacks as well. I brought to RSC a few years ago and they mentioned it was all correct. My question is: Is 1979 too late to have a 17j 1520 or is that normal?

11 January 2021, 07:27 AM	#2
Dan S 2024 Pledge Member Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 6,256	Do you think it was strictly by date? I always thought that the low-jeweled and high-jeweled movements were made simultaneously and the former were for the US market. I have certainly seen 26 jewel movements in many watches from the early 1970s, although I'm more familiar with 5513s. __________________ @oldwatchdan on IG

12 January 2021, 12:43 AM	#17
Dan S 2024 Pledge Member Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 6,256	Thanks for posting that interesting article. Yes, I agree that the 17j 1520s were made in response to the tariffs and I agree that they ended around 1980. The question for me was whether 17 and 26 jewel 1520s were made simultaneously throughout the 70s for different markets. I have run into many of the high jewel movements from that era and always assumed they were original but made for non-US markets as was done by other manufacturers. I'd like to know if that is incorrect. As you mentioned, it would be helpful to hear from original owners, and there may be some on the forum. __________________ @oldwatchdan on IG

12 January 2021, 01:43 AM	#18
214270Explorer "TRF" Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: United States Watch: me buy Watches Posts: 3,955	Interesting subject. Learned something new today. __________________ “The display of actual intelligence terrifies much of mankind” Rolex "some" Tudor "some" Damasko "some" Misc Pieces "some" Marathon "some" GS Spring Drive "some" Hamilton "some" Findeisen "some"

11 January 2021, 12:50 PM	#12
vintagewaferthin "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Earth Watch: Air-King 5500 Posts: 2,620	Interesting and informative thread this has become. Always something to learn with vintage Rolex.

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