First time buying vintage Rolex. Is this legit?

[lijiejoyce]

Hi,

I am eyeing on this ladyjust 69178. It is from 1995. 26mm with president bracelet. Can somebody tell me if it is real and legit? The seller says it is original dial. I have more photos if needed.

[interestedwatcher]

Looks legit to me, lapis is very cool.

[j_a]

Do you have photos of the serial and reference number?

[TimeLord2]

Waiting for @MiamiClay on this one. I love those Lapis Lazuli dials!

[lijiejoyce]

I don't have photos of serial number and reference number yet. The seller says they will send me serial number and model pics tmrw or Friday latest. They need to take off the bracelet.
Here are some more photos of the bracelet.

[miamiclay]

Originally Posted by TimeLord2

Waiting for @MiamiClay on this one. I love those Lapis Lazuli dials!

Appreciate the confidence, but idk the ladies’ models at all.

[CTech]

There are a couple of things that don't look right and need more clarification.

Watches with this design of stone dial with no markers generally left the factory with solid hands (with no lume). When fitted with lumed hands such as these, there is a good indication that the dial is not original to the watch.

Also, the SWISS inscription on the dial is not consistent with a 1995 watch, but this type of dial was common earlier, maybe up to about 1988.

The two concerns together make me think this watch has probably had a dial change sometime in its life, possibly to make it more attractive and profitable when sold.

The next question is what does the vendor mean by "original dial"? If this means it is a genuine Rolex dial then it implies a dial change. If it means original to the watch then the wrong hands and age inconsistency need to be explained.

There are a huge number of aftermarket lapis lazuli dials around so I would be very suspicious of this unless there was some proof of the claims, such as a sales receipt or warranty document noting the dial type or some photos of the underside of the dial showing the correct maker's marks.

If there is no proof forthcoming, I would treat this as a watch which has had an aftermarket dial fitted and price it accordingly.

The case and bracelet look OK to me and all the clasp markings seem to be authentic. The only other point is the font on the date wheel is a little strange, but there are several watches for sale with this type of thick font so it might be correct for the year. Just to be on the safe side I would ask for a series of photos showing different dates (including some from 10 to 19, some from 20 to 29, either 30 or 31 and some with a 4 showing), and then I would be able to compare them to other 1995 watches known to be genuine.

If this sounds a little obsessive, it is because the dealers generally have a significant mark up on stone dialed watches and so there is a lot of incentive for others to "manufacture" them out of relative ordinary models. Those involved in putting together these watches generally don't have the same concern for originality as the majority on this forum and so once there is a suspicion of parts swapping it is wise to wonder (and check) if the other easily replaced parts are genuine Rolex or whether they might be aftermarket as well.

[lijiejoyce]

Originally Posted by CTech

There are a couple of things that don't look right and need more clarification.

Watches with this design of stone dial with no markers generally left the factory with solid hands (with no lume). When fitted with lumed hands such as these, there is a good indication that the dial is not original to the watch.

Also, the SWISS inscription on the dial is not consistent with a 1995 watch, but this type of dial was common earlier, maybe up to about 1988.

The two concerns together make me think this watch has probably had a dial change sometime in its life, possibly to make it more attractive and profitable when sold.

The next question is what does the vendor mean by "original dial"? If this means it is a genuine Rolex dial then it implies a dial change. If it means original to the watch then the wrong hands and age inconsistency need to be explained.

There are a huge number of aftermarket lapis lazuli dials around so I would be very suspicious of this unless there was some proof of the claims, such as a sales receipt or warranty document noting the dial type or some photos of the underside of the dial showing the correct maker's marks.

If there is no proof forthcoming, I would treat this as a watch which has had an aftermarket dial fitted and price it accordingly.

The case and bracelet look OK to me and all the clasp markings seem to be authentic. The only other point is the font on the date wheel is a little strange, but there are several watches for sale with this type of thick font so it might be correct for the year. Just to be on the safe side I would ask for a series of photos showing different dates (including some from 10 to 19, some from 20 to 29, either 30 or 31 and some with a 4 showing), and then I would be able to compare them to other 1995 watches known to be genuine.

If this sounds a little obsessive, it is because the dealers generally have a significant mark up on stone dialed watches and so there is a lot of incentive for others to "manufacture" them out of relative ordinary models. Those involved in putting together these watches generally don't have the same concern for originality as the majority on this forum and so once there is a suspicion of parts swapping it is wise to wonder (and check) if the other easily replaced parts are genuine Rolex or whether they might be aftermarket as well.

Thanks for the info. This is super helpful! Yes I believe the case and bracelet is original from the photos they sent me with the right serial number and model number. However, the dial is still questionable. It doesn't seem like the seller could give proof the dial is original besides they say so. I don't think they are lying but very likely they didn't know what happened to the watch too. Considering the price they are asking for (14k USD), I guess it is safe to conclude it will not be worth getting it?

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by lijiejoyce

The seller says they will send me serial number and model pics tmrw or Friday latest. They need to take off the bracelet.

I'm smelling something. Bracelet removal: 30 seconds. High-res iPhone photo: 10 seconds. Email: 20 seconds. 1 minute-job, max.

[offrdmania]

$14K is way overpriced IMO

[lijiejoyce]

I found a similar one online. This one is from 1982 and model 69178. Does this dial look right?

[TurboWatch]

Both of these have after market lapis lazuli dials. These watches should have the T Swiss T Dials.

[CTech]

The second one looks to have an aftermarket dial, but not just because it has SWISS at the bottom and not T SWISS T. Just having SWISS can be correct for the mid 1980s. This has the correct hand design, but they might be aftermarket as well and just show that whoever converted this one spent a little more time on the deception compared to the first one.

There are significant risks to buying a complete watch with a lapis lazuli dial and my guess is that almost every one for sale has an aftermarket dial. I would assume that to be the case unless proof of originality is offered.

The first watch posted, and the later revealing of the asking price ($14000), explains the reason for this. A similar quality 69178 with a silver or champagne dial could sell for as little as $8000, but the addition of a $500 replica lapis dial and $200 to a watchmaker to do the dial swap turns it into a $12000 to $14000 watch (at least in the eyes of the vendor).

It is very difficult to determine aftermarket lapis dials from the front as the printing is very accurate on the good quality replicas. The only feature on the front of the dial that is a reliable indicator of original versus aftermarket is to look at the shape of the gold frame around the date window. This is impossible to do on an assembled watch as the magnifying lens distorts the shape so the feature you need to see is not clear.

The only way you can be 100% certain is to look at the underside of the dial and examine the manufacturing steps. In short, an aftermarket dial will be based on a thin stamped disc and generally will have some sanding marks over most of the surface whereas a genuine Rolex dial will be based on a thicker casting and there will be no hand finishing marks.

If you are serious about having a lapis lazuli dial, and also want to make sure it is a genuine Rolex one, there are really only three options:

1. Get the vendor to prove the claims of original, authentic, etc. This has little chance of success. Even recent Rolex service documents are not sufficient unless they specifically mention the lapis dial, as otherwise there is no proof that the watch had that dial fitted when it was serviced. There are many alleged cases where a watch has been altered after service but the vendor uses the service documents to "prove" the watch is completely authentic, claiming that "Rolex wouldn't service it if it had aftermarket parts".

2. Try to get the vendor of an assembled watch to remove the movement from the case, photograph the date aperture frame, remove the dial and photograph the underside. This also has little to no chance of success.

3. Buy a genuine Lapis lazuli dial (after close examination of both sides), buy a 6917 or 69178 with a common dial and get a skilled watchmaker to service the watch and carry out the dial/hand swap.

Option 3 obviously will not give you an original lapis dialed watch but it will be authentic in that all parts are Rolex made, and with care it will be period correct.

This is the only way I would approach the problem because of all the risks and resulting anxiety of the huge number of aftermarket dials on the market. If you have a watch built to your specification at least you know for certain what is in it, and if you keep the original dial you can reverse the changes if you decide to sell the watch in the future.

There are two original Rolex lapis dials for sale on ebay at around $1400 each so I think you could put a good lapis dialed 69178 together for around $10000.

For this to be successful you will need the help of a good independent watchmaker so you will need to see if there are any in your area who would take on this type of work. If not, there are several in the San Francisco and Los Angeles areas with good trade contacts who could get you the base watch and a genuine dial and hand set, and who could also service the movement and fit everything together.

If you aren't necessarily wanting a lapis dial but want something unusual you should look at some other stone dials or even the wood dials, some of which are very attractive. There are very few aftermarket copies of these compared to the lapis dials and so you could be more certain of finding a genuine original watch.

There is a post in the Rolex Reference Library section listing a lot of different stone dials. This is worth a look to get familiar with what original dials look like.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=613448

[lijiejoyce]

Originally Posted by CTech

The second one looks to have an aftermarket dial, but not just because it has SWISS at the bottom and not T SWISS T. Just having SWISS can be correct for the mid 1980s. This has the correct hand design, but they might be aftermarket as well and just show that whoever converted this one spent a little more time on the deception compared to the first one.

There are significant risks to buying a complete watch with a lapis lazuli dial and my guess is that almost every one for sale has an aftermarket dial. I would assume that to be the case unless proof of originality is offered.

The first watch posted, and the later revealing of the asking price ($14000), explains the reason for this. A similar quality 69178 with a silver or champagne dial could sell for as little as $8000, but the addition of a $500 replica lapis dial and $200 to a watchmaker to do the dial swap turns it into a $12000 to $14000 watch (at least in the eyes of the vendor).

It is very difficult to determine aftermarket lapis dials from the front as the printing is very accurate on the good quality replicas. The only feature on the front of the dial that is a reliable indicator of original versus aftermarket is to look at the shape of the gold frame around the date window. This is impossible to do on an assembled watch as the magnifying lens distorts the shape so the feature you need to see is not clear.

The only way you can be 100% certain is to look at the underside of the dial and examine the manufacturing steps. In short, an aftermarket dial will be based on a thin stamped disc and generally will have some sanding marks over most of the surface whereas a genuine Rolex dial will be based on a thicker casting and there will be no hand finishing marks.

If you are serious about having a lapis lazuli dial, and also want to make sure it is a genuine Rolex one, there are really only three options:

1. Get the vendor to prove the claims of original, authentic, etc. This has little chance of success. Even recent Rolex service documents are not sufficient unless they specifically mention the lapis dial, as otherwise there is no proof that the watch had that dial fitted when it was serviced. There are many alleged cases where a watch has been altered after service but the vendor uses the service documents to "prove" the watch is completely authentic, claiming that "Rolex wouldn't service it if it had aftermarket parts".

2. Try to get the vendor of an assembled watch to remove the movement from the case, photograph the date aperture frame, remove the dial and photograph the underside. This also has little to no chance of success.

3. Buy a genuine Lapis lazuli dial (after close examination of both sides), buy a 6917 or 69178 with a common dial and get a skilled watchmaker to service the watch and carry out the dial/hand swap.

Option 3 obviously will not give you an original lapis dialed watch but it will be authentic in that all parts are Rolex made, and with care it will be period correct.

This is the only way I would approach the problem because of all the risks and resulting anxiety of the huge number of aftermarket dials on the market. If you have a watch built to your specification at least you know for certain what is in it, and if you keep the original dial you can reverse the changes if you decide to sell the watch in the future.

There are two original Rolex lapis dials for sale on ebay at around $1400 each so I think you could put a good lapis dialed 69178 together for around $10000.

For this to be successful you will need the help of a good independent watchmaker so you will need to see if there are any in your area who would take on this type of work. If not, there are several in the San Francisco and Los Angeles areas with good trade contacts who could get you the base watch and a genuine dial and hand set, and who could also service the movement and fit everything together.

If you aren't necessarily wanting a lapis dial but want something unusual you should look at some other stone dials or even the wood dials, some of which are very attractive. There are very few aftermarket copies of these compared to the lapis dials and so you could be more certain of finding a genuine original watch.

There is a post in the Rolex Reference Library section listing a lot of different stone dials. This is worth a look to get familiar with what original dials look like.

Thank you a lot CTech! This makes a lot of sense. I am glad I asked before I made any impulsive purchase decision I learned so much here :)
Could you tell me a bit more about the "swiss" label in the bottom? I have seen swiss made, swiss, T swiss T in different watches. What is the history behind that?

[CTech]

The use of SWISS, T SWISS T etc. can be useful in determining originality, but there are a number of caveats and anomalies that prevent it being as straightforward as we would like.

There are a number of forum posts and articles that explain this in some detail, but here is the short summary for the majority of Rolex Oyster watches:

SWISS - Radium lume used up to about 1960

T SWISS T (or SWISS-T<25) - Tritium lume used from about 1960 to about 1998

SWISS - Luminova, Superluminova, etc. lume used from about 1998 to 2000

SWISS MADE - Luminova, Superluminova, Chromalight used from 2000 onwards

In addition to the main text there might be other symbols such as a dash or a sigma mark, and these all can have some meaning, albeit only a detail.

Dress watches such as ladies cocktail watches and the Orchid, Cellini, Midas, etc. ranges might not conform to this and might have inscriptions that don't appear to have any logical pattern.

The lapis lazuli dials that you are looking at also don't conform to this pattern exactly. The reason for this is that the stone dials are a small subset of the total dial production, and the stone dials designed to have no markers or lume are an even smaller subset of that small subset.

So, in the mid 1980s when an ordinary dial would have T SWISS T, a no marker stone dial could have T SWISS T (as expected), or SWISS only (not expected and against the above convention).

As always with vintage Rolex, nothing is black and white and there are exceptions to any rule that is proposed, so be very wary of any unsubstantiated claims based on only one piece of evidence. Dial markings can be used as an indication of age or originality, but need to be considered with a lot of other factors in order to reach a conclusion based on an overall pattern, not just a knee jerk reaction.