Mystery 1601 dial

[Syntax1999]

Hello. I'm relatively new to the world of Rolex. For my first one, I sought out a unique vintage timepiece that had an interesting story. I purchased from Bob's Watches a 1601 reference Datejust listed as a Champaign pie pan linen dial with a 3.5M serial number; which should date the watch to around 1972.

I noticed the linen pattern is not like any I have seen before. Every linen example I have seen has the pattern running vertical and horizontal. This one runs diagonal. Under a jewelers loupe I can see the engraving was hand done first from the 10 o'clock to the 4 o'clock direction, then over that from the 2 o'clock to the 8 o'clock direction. The laquer has spider webbing that I would think is consistent with the age.

The Jubilee bracelet is 2 tone folded steel; not the American/Mexican made oval link or the newer Swiss D link. The clasp is stamped "SWISS MADE" with the product number 6252h14. There is no production code as this should predate 1976. The end links have the product stamps 255 J. Referring to Rolex documentation found online, all the product numbers are complimentary and consistent with the 1601 reference.

I also noticed that even though the dial was marked "T SWISS T" it does not have any lume. I have found online sources that cite during the 1970s there was a restriction to import radioactive materials to Japan; so Rolex produced "no lume" dials to accomodate. This supports the Swiss origination Jubilee bracelet as it appears this watch was not intended for the US market.

Additionally, since the crystal is not domed, I'm almost sure it is a service crystal. Unfortunately no box and papers but at almost 50 years old its excusable; especially if this watch has travelled halfway around the world. My conclusion is this timepiece was produced for the Japanese market with a an exclusive dial, similar to the mosaic dial.

I took the watch to my local AD and they agree everything appeared to be authentic but could not tell me anything about the watch. I think I need input from the enthusiast community.

Does anyone have anymore insight to this timepiece? Is my research sound? Has anyone else seen this type of dial? Thanks

[Dan S]

Bob's should know its stuff but I would personally have some concerns about that dial. However, you can swap in a different dial and you can have the bracelet restored. The lugs will be harder to address.

[CTech]

There were some dials similar to this fitted to Florentine finished solid gold watches.

They were similar in that there was a diagonal cross-hatch pattern like this, but different in that the lines were at 90 degrees to each other and the only ones I can remember seeing were on Day-Dates.

It is unlikely that this watch started out with this dial, and I have some doubts about whether this is a genuine Rolex dial. It might be worth having the dial removed so the markings on the underside can be examined.

This is an example of a typical Florentine finish Day-Date, but whether this one is original or is a later customized copy is debatable, but you can see how the 90 degree cross-hatches on the dial match those on the case lugs and bracelet links.

With the cross-hatches on the OP's 1601 being at a different angle (maybe 120 degrees), I don' t know what of the other special patterns used by Rolex they could match. It might be worth looking at some of these patterns such as Florentine, Morellis, moire, etc. to see if there are any good matches.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Bob's should know its stuff but I would personally have some concerns about that dial. However, you can swap in a different dial and you can have the bracelet restored. The lugs will be harder to address.

Bob’s only deals in a handful of models and they’re not very knowledgeable from my experience.

They operate as if these watches are commodities. And each one has a value based on condition/model. If it’s not on their price sheet, they’re not interested.

[Syntax1999]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Bob's should know its stuff but I would personally have some concerns about that dial. However, you can swap in a different dial and you can have the bracelet restored. The lugs will be harder to address.

I had the same concerns which is why I had my local AD look at it. The AD said they believe it to be genuine but to be 100% sure I should have the local RSC look at it. I am trying to decide if it's worth the effort.

As you said, Bob's should know what to look for.

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Bob's should know its stuff but I would personally have some concerns about that dial. However, you can swap in a different dial and you can have the bracelet restored. The lugs will be harder to address.

Maybe Bob’s should, but they don’t.
Recently, Jacquelyn over there, explained to me that “...1601 bezels aren’t white gold, which is why (their) offer wasn’t as high as other models.”

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Syntax1999

I had the same concerns which is why I had my local AD look at it. The AD said they believe it to be genuine but to be 100% sure I should have the local RSC look at it. I am trying to decide if it's worth the effort.

As you said, Bob's should know what to look for.

If there is someone at your AD who is an expert on vintage Rolex, that's wonderful, but pretty unusual in my experience. Many ADs are simply jewelry stores that have a contract to sell a few brands of watches. If they get a vintage piece in trade, they sell it to a wholesale dealer. Even if they have an in-house watchmaker, they may not be particularly knowledgable about vintage pieces, and you are asking about a pretty obscure dial.

[Richard Carver]

I doubt the dial is original to the watch because whoever put it in was too cheap or lazy to put a matching date wheel in it; The wheel would have been champaign from the factory. The fonts are hinky enough to warrant a closer inspection or a trip to Dallas if you're nearby.

Locally made bracelets were used until a specified number based on overall production was met then Rolex made bracelets were used. Lume free dials, sometimes called "dress" dials were most likely provided to buyers who had to work in radium free environments, the originals had lume free hands as well;

[Syntax1999]

Originally Posted by CTech

There were some dials similar to this fitted to Florentine finished solid gold watches.

They were similar in that there was a diagonal cross-hatch pattern like this, but different in that the lines were at 90 degrees to each other and the only ones I can remember seeing were on Day-Dates.

It is unlikely that this watch started out with this dial, and I have some doubts about whether this is a genuine Rolex dial. It might be worth having the dial removed so the markings on the underside can be examined.

This is an example of a typical Florentine finish Day-Date, but whether this one is original or is a later customized copy is debatable, but you can see how the 90 degree cross-hatches on the dial match those on the case lugs and bracelet links.

With the cross-hatches on the OP's 1601 being at a different angle (maybe 120 degrees), I don' t know what of the other special patterns used by Rolex they could match. It might be worth looking at some of these patterns such as Florentine, Morellis, moire, etc. to see if there are any good matches.

I also saw found examples of Florentine dials, but as you said, every example I saw were at 90 degree cross hatches.

Under my 60x loupe I can see the engraving is hand done. The pattern is irregular but precise to give it that linen look. Where the cross hatches intersect I can see where the metal is pushed over the engraving layer below. Its definately not a stamped pattern.

The dial may not be original to the watch but I find it hard to believe this much effort would be spent on a Datejust dial, unless it was authorized by Rolex.

But as you also said the only way to be sure is to look for markings underneath the dial. For an early 1970s datejust dial what codes are expected?

[Syntax1999]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I have made an appointment next week with the Dallas RSC. Their fee is $150 and will take 7-10 days. Unfortunately if any parts are found to not be authentic Rolex, they will not tell me which ones. So, if their report is not good I will have to rely on Bob's to resolve.

Oh well, I guess its still a better gamble than Ebay or Chrono24. In the meantime, please keep posting any comments or any possible sightings for this dial.

[Syntax1999]

Just returned from the Dallas RSC. Based on advice I found on the forum, I asked for a service estimate but did admit I was really after an authentication. They gladly examined my watch while I waited and even agreed to adjust the end links for me. No charge.

Turns out everything is Rolex factory! The dial is a Rolex Florentine Champaign finished pie pan. Attached is the service estimate. They will service as long as parts are available. I politely declined and emphasized my desire was to keep all the parts period correct.

Still up to debate whether or not the dial was original to the watch, but I am still very pleased with the result. I now get why vintage collectors enjoy the hunt.

Does anyone know what years Rolex offered Florentine dials?